Baptism

SPOKENWORD · Jan 5, 2005

Robert in SD:

Dear Spokenword;

You have not answered my question. If you believe infant baptism violates our free will, then please articulate *how * that free will is violated in an infant baptism? It is the parents’ will to offer baptim to their child. When the child reaches an age of reason, he or she can choose to affirm the promises made by the parents and godparents at baptism (at Confirmation) or choose to reject those promises explicitly or by conduct. How is such a scenario contrary to the gift of free will?

Peace,

P.S. If a child lacks the capacity to make a decision for or against Christ, again there is no contradiction of free will by baptism, right? If you disagree, please explain.

Infants are not capable of using the free will God gave them.That being the case they have not made a choice to be baptised. A parents will is not an infants will. Maybe thats why it is a good idea to wait until the child can make their own decision.

God Bless

Robert_in_SD · Jan 5, 2005

SPOKENWORD:

Infants are not capable of using the free will God gave them.That being the case they have not made a choice to be baptised. A parents will is not an infants will. Maybe thats why it is a good idea to wait until the child can make their own decision. God Bless

If infants are not capable of using the free will that God gave them due to a lack of capacity, they have not made a conscious decision NOT to be baptized either. That being the case, there is no act by God contrary to free will.

Your comment does not stand up to reason. A parent would not take the “let the child decide when he’s older” route with his or her infant child in other matters like taking needed medicine, wearing proper clothes, eating the proper food, etc. Why oh why would it then be improper for a parent to take action with respect to the salvation of their child’s soul? And why would you think that our Father in Heaven would turn his back on infants and deny them salvation?

To continue the analogy, when a child grows older they can choose to continue to practice the positive habits their parents instill, or reject them for unhealthy habits, just as a child can choose to take advantage of the gift of baptism, or reject the promises made on his or her behalf.

Peace

Lisa4Catholics · Jan 5, 2005

SPOKENWORD:

Infants are not capable of using the free will God gave them.That being the case they have not made a choice to be baptised. A parents will is not an infants will. Maybe thats why it is a good idea to wait until the child can make their own decision. God Bless

Spoken, you are using the same argument that the radicals in the UN are making.They are trying to say it is a crime to force kids to go to church if they don’t want to(parents are interfering with their free will).Does that not strike you as strange

God Bless

SPOKENWORD · Jan 5, 2005

Robert in SD:

If infants are not capable of using the free will that God gave them due to a lack of capacity, they have not made a conscious decision NOT to be baptized either. That being the case, there is no act by God contrary to free will.

Your comment does not stand up to reason. A parent would not take the “let the child decide when he’s older” route with his or her infant child in other matters like taking needed medicine, wearing proper clothes, eating the proper food, etc. Why oh why would it then be improper for a parent to take action with respect to the salvation of their child’s soul? And why would you think that our Father in Heaven would turn his back on infants and deny them salvation?

To continue the analogy, when a child grows older they can choose to continue to practice the positive habits their parents instill, or reject them for unhealthy habits, just as a child can choose to take advantage of the gift of baptism, or reject the promises made on his or her behalf.

Peace

Are you given the choice to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and your savior? Every one is responsable for thier own salvation. You cannot make that decission for anyone other than yourself.

God bless

exrc · Jan 5, 2005

Robert in SD:

If infants are not capable of using the free will that God gave them due to a lack of capacity, they have not made a conscious decision NOT to be baptized either. That being the case, there is no act by God contrary to free will.

Your comment does not stand up to reason. A parent would not take the “let the child decide when he’s older” route with his or her infant child in other matters like taking needed medicine, wearing proper clothes, eating the proper food, etc. Why oh why would it then be improper for a parent to take action with respect to the salvation of their child’s soul? And why would you think that our Father in Heaven would turn his back on infants and deny them salvation?

To continue the analogy, when a child grows older they can choose to continue to practice the positive habits their parents instill, or reject them for unhealthy habits, just as a child can choose to take advantage of the gift of baptism, or reject the promises made on his or her behalf.

Peace

Read my posts on" define born again " and you will repent and defect from the RC faith.

exrc

dennisknapp · Jan 5, 2005

exrc:

Read my posts on" define born again " and you will repent and defect from the RC faith.

exrc

That’s a good one. My side in hurting…

exrc · Jan 5, 2005

dennisknapp said:
That’s a good one. My side in hurting…

You laugh with no rebbutal, how sad. Do you realize you are acting like a fool?

exrc

serendipity · Jan 5, 2005

I was under the impression that Christ’s baptism was symbolic. The Spirit was already with him. I don’t understand why people feel the need to be submerged by water. The baptism is suppose to be the baptism of the spirit, and water is only window dressing symbolism.

It’s good that parents can baptise children, so that the Spirt is invited into their lives to guide them when they don’t have the ability to make the decision theselves, and to protect them in the event of an early death.

I think the Catholic church’s approach to this is the ideal one, because it protects children, then gives the individual the opportunity to make the decision for themselves when they are of cognizant age. It also seems to best mirror the example in the Bible of the parents presenting the infant Jesus to the Temple, and then Jesus later seeking our John himself.

dennisknapp · Jan 5, 2005

exrc:

Read my posts on" define born again " and you will repent and defect from the RC faith.

exrc

Come on, do you really think that someone will "repent’ and “defect” just by reading your posts?

This is what I thought was so funny.

I think you must look at yourself in the light of Truth and repent and defect back to Him.

Church_Militant · Jan 6, 2005

SPOKENWORD:

Sorry C. M. Again you disagree with me.Im sorry my comments go against your belief system,But I am not God. Is God bound by His promises? What do you think? So when God said He will never Flood the earth again,WILL HE? God Bless

Again you fail to meet the very same requirements that you demand of me! SPOKEN! This is not MY belief system, and you are not quoting the Almighty from His own context. Certainly God is bound by His promises, but what disjointed logic has this to do with what we’re talking about? You have yet to offer anything but YOUR perceptions of YOUR “belief system”. Some of your arguments remind me of stuff the Jehovah’s Witnesses have used with me before.(no offense…). It’s not a matter of disagreeing, but of seeking out the fullness of truth. Love ya and all but I don’t feel like you’re being honest here.

:bible1:

Tea? here’s yours…

Church_Militant · Jan 6, 2005

exrc:

You laugh with no rebbutal, how sad. Do you realize you are acting like a fool?

exrc

Listen exrc (to your very great loss…)
Why are you so insulting? You know what Jesus said about calling someone a fool.

I’ll tell you this my friend, I WAS “exrc” for 34 years until some A/C guy attacked the faith on something that I fully KNEW was baloney and when I stood him down I promised him that if he was right I’d never set foot in a Catholic Church again, but if he proved wrong that I would show him. He wouldn’t even discuss it…He wasn’t honest at all. I continued to check carefully into the teachings of the Catholic Church and found that I had been deceived by the non-Catholic teachers and preachers for all those years. They are most definately NOT New Testament churches (in spite of all their claims) because they do not believe and practice the same things that the NT church did. Not even about Baptism, which is a vital and central doctrine of Christianity. The fact is that I will now not ever set foot in a non-Catholic church for one of their services because most of them teach weird doctrines of men. YOU are wrong sir! YOU have been deceived and led astray by the people you have listened to. I’m sorry for you, but I doubt you have the courage to even read the tracts on this site or to actually read the entire CCC with an honest, open, and prayerful heart. I have and I know what I have found…
http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/chest.gif
and no tirade by you or any other “Christian” will make me , or anyone else who knows what the Holy Catholic Church really teaches “defect”.
God be good to you sir.

Theodred · Jan 6, 2005

SPOKENWORD:

Are you given the choice to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and your savior? Every one is responsable for thier own salvation. You cannot make that decission for anyone other than yourself. God bless

Thankfully, Jesus didn’t think the same way as you. It was Jairus’ faith, not his daughters, that merited his daughter’s healing (Mark 5:21-43). It was the faith of the boy’s father that merited Jesus casting out the mute and deaf spirit; it was not the boy’s faith that merited the healing (Mark 9:14-27). It was the faith of those who let the paralytic down through the roof that merited the healing of the paralytic, not the paralytic’s faith (Mark 2:1-5). In fact, this last example demonstrates that physical healings are signs for spiritual salvation (“which easier to say, your sins are forgiven, or get up and walk?”).

Really, Jesus’ mercy has very little to do with personal responsibility. If it is my responsibility to get saved, then isn’t that a work? Are you saying that salvation comes from some work I perform?

Jesus said: It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you and appointed you (Jn 15:16).

If it is Jesus who chooses us, and not us him, then what could this responsibility that you speak about have to do with salvation? What you are talking about sounds an awful lot like salvation by works!

How great our savior is! Even a child without reason, a person born with sever mental retardation, is welcomed by Jesus! Welcomed with open arms into his Kingdom.

Let the children come to me, and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these (Matt 19:14).

Woe to that man who would deny these persons so precious in the sight of God the sacrament of our salvation (1 Peter 3:21).

cove · Jan 6, 2005

oudave:

The catholic church is so far off when it comes to baptism. I think scripture is very clear on the subject. First in the baptizing of infants and second baptizing by sprinkeling, The greek definition is to submerse or to emerse, ie under water. It is very symbolic of the death, burriel and reserection of Christ. Besides, It is the way Christ was baptized. If he is the example, i am to follow. I ate to say it but most catholic’s have not been baptized, therefore have not recieved the gift of the Holy Spirit. Read Math 7:13-14, it’s very scary. Don’t take the chance, do it the right way. Put your trust in the scriptures, not in man.

In my parish we have baptism by immersion. The Sacrament of baptism is shared during Mass and at the same time the infants, older children and adults are baptised all baptised Catholics present reafirm their baptismal vows. I have had many an opportunity to reafirm my baptismal vows as an adult since my baptism by water as an infant.

Thank you for your concern but I am most confident that I have been baptised.

Mickey · Jan 6, 2005

Robert in SD:

If infants are not capable of using the free will that God gave them due to a lack of capacity, they have not made a conscious decision NOT to be baptized either. That being the case, there is no act by God contrary to free will.

Your comment does not stand up to reason. A parent would not take the “let the child decide when he’s older” route with his or her infant child in other matters like taking needed medicine, wearing proper clothes, eating the proper food, etc. Why oh why would it then be improper for a parent to take action with respect to the salvation of their child’s soul? And why would you think that our Father in Heaven would turn his back on infants and deny them salvation?

To continue the analogy, when a child grows older they can choose to continue to practice the positive habits their parents instill, or reject them for unhealthy habits, just as a child can choose to take advantage of the gift of baptism, or reject the promises made on his or her behalf.

Bravo, Robert! That is an exellent post. Tom’s earlier post is also very good. John The Forerunner leapt in Elizabeth’s womb in the presence of the mother of our Lord. If an infant could talk, does anyone really believe they would say, “no, don’t baptize me yet. I may reject Christ and His teachings later in life.” It’s common sense! The parents are there to do what’s best for their baby…especially their baby’s soul…and that is to have the child baptized with water and the spirit. To be baptized as an infant and then to grow and mature in faith, is a beautiful thing!

cove · Jan 6, 2005

SPOKENWORD:

HI Fiat,Of course we are born with a free will. Thats the way God created us.The question is how old before we understand how to use it. God Bless

I would say very early on. This is evident in the fact that infants cry. They are exercising their “freewill” to impose on their parents what they want and need.

We all make decisions for the welfare of our children. It is a parents duty to make life decisions for their small children. A parent who baptises their small child has made a very important life decision for them. It might be my child’s wish to not wear a hat in extremely cold weather. Should I not as a parent be concerned for their health and insist that they wear their hat? They may use their freewill and take the hat off once out of my sight but they will soon learn, unfortunately the hard way, what is right when they find themselves home suffering in bed with the flu.

I have made the decision to baptise my child and raise him in the Catholic faith as I am concerned for his spiritual welfare. In years to come my child may decide to excersize his freewill and choose to leave the Church. But like removing his hat and exposing himself to illness, he will soon learn that mom really does know best.

SPOKENWORD · Jan 6, 2005

Church Militant:

Again you fail to meet the very same requirements that you demand of me! SPOKEN! This is not MY belief system, and you are not quoting the Almighty from His own context. Certainly God is bound by His promises, but what disjointed logic has this to do with what we’re talking about? You have yet to offer anything but YOUR perceptions of YOUR “belief system”. Some of your arguments remind me of stuff the Jehovah’s Witnesses have used with me before.(no offense…). It’s not a matter of disagreeing, but of seeking out the fullness of truth. Love ya and all but I don’t feel like you’re being honest here. :bible1: Tea? here’s yours…

Hi C.M. PRAISE GOD my eyesight has gotten better and He has used you as a vessel.

I love you to brother.

God Bless

SPOKENWORD · Jan 6, 2005

Théodred:

Thankfully, Really, Jesus’ mercy has very little to do with personal responsibility. If it is my responsibility to get saved, then isn’t that a work? Are you saying that salvation comes from some work I perform?

Jesus said: It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you and appointed you (Jn 15:16).

If it is Jesus who chooses us, and not us him, then what could this responsibility that you speak about have to do with salvation? What you are talking about sounds an awful lot like salvation by works!
Hi Ted, By your logic then everyone would be saved because Jesus came to save all,but the Truth is many have been called but few are chosen. Why is that? Maybe freewill to recieve and act upon this Gift.of Salvation. God Bless

Mickey · Jan 6, 2005

SPOKENWORD:

Every one is responsable for thier own salvation.

Jesus Christ is responsible for your salvation.

SPOKENWORD · Jan 6, 2005

cove:

I would say very early on. This is evident in the fact that infants cry. They are exercising their “freewill” to impose on their parents what they want and need.

We all make decisions for the welfare of our children. It is a parents duty to make life decisions for their small children. A parent who baptises their small child has made a very important life decision for them. It might be my child’s wish to not wear a hat in extremely cold weather. Should I not as a parent be concerned for their health and insist that they wear their hat? They may use their freewill and take the hat off once out of my sight but they will soon learn, unfortunately the hard way, what is right when they find themselves home suffering in bed with the flu.

I have made the decision to baptise my child and raise him in the Catholic faith as I am concerned for his spiritual welfare. In years to come my child may decide to excersize his freewill and choose to leave the Church. But like removing his hat and exposing himself to illness, he will soon learn that mom really does know best.

HI Cove ,So you will give your child the choice to get out but you wont give him the choice to come in. Thats what I call half truth. Wheres the freewill?

God Bless

SPOKENWORD · Jan 6, 2005

Mickey:

Jesus Christ is responsible for your salvation.

HIm Mickey,Jesus is the giver and we are the reciever.

God Bless

Baptism

SPOKENWORD

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Robert_in_SD

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Lisa4Catholics

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SPOKENWORD

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exrc

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dennisknapp

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exrc

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serendipity

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dennisknapp

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Church_Militant

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Church_Militant

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Theodred

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cove

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Mickey

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cove

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SPOKENWORD

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SPOKENWORD

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If it is Jesus who chooses us, and not us him, then what could this responsibility that you speak about have to do with salvation? What you are talking about sounds an awful lot like salvation by works!​

Mickey

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SPOKENWORD

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SPOKENWORD

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If it is Jesus who chooses us, and not us him, then what could this responsibility that you speak about have to do with salvation? What you are talking about sounds an awful lot like salvation by works!