Baptism

[johnq]

oudave:

Catholic always talk about baptism’s in the scriptures where there MIGHT NOT have been enough water, or that there MIGHT have been children in the house, the only problem is the scriptures dont say that.

oudave

If it must be explicitly mention in scripture, then I need help with my two year daughter. I wonder if you have any suggestions?

Here it is.

My daughter, Anne Marie, loves Christian music. It is so cute seeing her sing “B-I-B-L-E, yes that’s the book for me,” “I love you Jesus, deep down in my soul,” or “Jesus loves me this I know for the bible tells me so.” My favorite is the Ave Marie.

Here is my problem. It is the “Jesus loves me” song, you see nowhere in scripture does it say “Jesus loves me.” What would you suggest? Should I burn the CD, put her in the corner, correct her saying, “no Anne Marie that’s not explicitly in scripture, sorry?”

Your suggestions and prayers would be greatly appreciated. I do not want to disobey scripture.

Thank you and God

 

[mercygate]

oudave? Where are you?

 

[Paris_Blues]

I was baptized - though not in the CC bummer - and if I join the CC, am I saved or do I have to have been baptized in the CC??

 

[mercygate]

Paris Blues:

I was baptized - though not in the CC bummer - and if I join the CC, am I saved or do I have to have been baptized in the CC??

If you were baptized in the Presbyterian Church (I know that from another thread) you ARE baptized in the Catholic Church! ONE baptism! – that is, if you were baptized with water “in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit [Ghost].” Welcome to the Body of Christ!

Paris: do you have a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church? You’re going to love it!

 

[itsjustdave1988]

josiah:

Could someone please explain to me why baptism is essential to salvation?

If you’re not baptized, does that mean you’re condemned to hell?

If you are Christian, it’s necessity is clearly attested to by Divine Revelation.

Jn 3:5, 22 -born of water & Spirit; Apostles begin baptizing
Tit 3:5 -saved us thru bath of rebirth & renewal by Holy Spirit
Acts 2:37-38- repent, be baptized, receive gift of Holy Spirit
Acts 22:16- get selves baptized and sins washed away
1 Cor 6:11 -you were washed, sanctified, justified
Rom 6:4- baptized into death; live in newness of life
1 Pet 3:21 -baptism …now saves you
Heb 10:22- heart sprinkled, bodies washed in pure water

On that authority, it ought to be clear that baptism is necessary. This is the testimony of Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox Christianity. Only the novel fringe of the wildly variant sects within Protestantism reject the necessity of baptism.

If you knowingly despise that which Christ demands of you, and you continue impenitent in such defiance, then you will not attain eternal life. If you love Him, keep his commands.

Now, what if you did not despise the command of God, but due to circumstances beyond your control, you could not become baptized? Are you going to hell? If you have at least the implicit desire to be baptized, then your sins are forgiven by such loving desire to do the will of God.

 

[josiah]

itsjustdave1988:

If you are Christian, it’s necessity is clearly attested to by Divine Revelation.

Jn 3:5, 22 -born of water & Spirit; Apostles begin baptizing
Tit 3:5 -saved us thru bath of rebirth & renewal by Holy Spirit
Acts 2:37-38- repent, be baptized, receive gift of Holy Spirit
Acts 22:16- get selves baptized and sins washed away
1 Cor 6:11 -you were washed, sanctified, justified
Rom 6:4- baptized into death; live in newness of life
1 Pet 3:21 -baptism …now saves you
Heb 10:22- heart sprinkled, bodies washed in pure water

On that authority, it ought to be clear that baptism is necessary. This is the testimony of Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox Christianity. Only the novel fringe of the wildly variant sects within Protestantism reject the necessity of baptism.

If you knowingly despise that which Christ demands of you, and you continue impenitent in such defiance, then you will not attain eternal life. If you love Him, keep his commands.

So, I am saved by works. What about the thief on the cross who never had the opportunity to be baptized?

Jn 3:5 is a reference to two seperate births. I don’t know how you can derive baptism out of this passage. The very next verse (verse 6) indicates the distinction.

Joh 3:5-6 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Josiah
peace

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Josiah, As Catholics we believe babtism is neccesary.But you have narrowed down babtism to babtism by water.There is also babtism by desire and babtism by blood(martyr) God Bless

 

[itsjustdave1988]

So, I am saved by works. What about the thief on the cross who never had the opportunity to be baptized?

I believe I covered this in my last paragraph…

Now, what if you did not despise the command of God, but due to circumstances beyond your control, you could not become baptized? Are you going to hell? If you have at least the implicit desire to be baptized, then your sins are forgiven by such loving desire to do the will of God.

Let me put it in Protestant terminology …

God comes down to walk with men who obey. If they walk with him, he walks with them. *The Lord can only have fellowship with his servants as they obey. *Obedience is heaven in us, and it is the preface of our being in heaven. Obedient faith is the way to eternal life—nay, it is eternal life revealing itself.

{C.H. Spurgeon, Obedience of Faith, Sermon No. 2195, August 21st, 1890, }

If you fail to have the obedience of faith, then you choose to reject the fellowship of God.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

From the above sermon of Protestant scholar C.H. Spurgeon, the issue of baptism is discussed:

Let us consider, secondly, THE KIND OF OBEDIENCE WHICH FAITH PRODUCES. This I shall illustrate from the whole of the verse.
http://www.spurgeon.org/images/indent.gifGenuine faith in God creates a prompt obedience. “By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed.” There was an immediate response to the command. Delayed obedience is disobedience. I wish some Christians, who put off duty, would remember this. Continued delay of duty is a continuous sin. If I do not obey the divine command, I sin; and every moment that I continue in that condition, I repeat the sin. This is a serious matter. If a certain act is my duty at this hour, an I leave it undone, I have sinned; but it will be equally incumbent upon me during the next hour; and if I still refuse, I disobey again and so on till I do obey. Neglect of a standing command must grow very grievous if it be persisted in for years. In proportion as the conscience becomes callous upon the subject, the guilt becomes the more provoking to the Lord. To refuse to do right is a great evil; but to continue in that refusal till conscience grows numb upon the matter is far worse. I remember a person coming to be baptised, who said that he had been a believer in the Lord Jesus for forty years; and that he had always seen the ordinance to be Scriptural. I felt grieved that he had so long been disobedient to a known duty, and I proposed to him that he should be baptised at once. It was in a village, and he said that there were no conveniences. I offered to go with him to the brook, and baptise him, but he said, “No; he that believeth shall not make haste.” Here was one who had wilfully disobeyed his Lord, for as many years as the Israelites in the wilderness, upon a matter so easy of performance; and yet, after confessing his fault he was not willing to amend it (ibid)

 

[josiah]

Now, what if you did not despise the command of God, but due to circumstances beyond your control, you could not become baptized? Are you going to hell? If you have at least the implicit desire to be baptized, then your sins are forgiven by such loving desire to do the will of God.

So, if my circumstances don’t prevent me from being baptized and I don’t get baptized, then into dante’s fire I go.

As I understand it, I’m saved by grace but only as it is manifested through the sacraments ie…baptism. However, the sacraments in their self are works. So, in reality I’m really saved by works and not grace.

Peace
Josiah

 

[itsjustdave1988]

josiah:

So, if my circumstances don’t prevent me from being baptized and I don’t get baptized, then into dante’s fire I go.

If you know perfectly well, as Protestant scholar CH Spurgeon states, that you are commanded to be baptized, and you still defiantly reject the will of God, you are not, in fact, in fellowship with God.

The heresy of antinomianism is unconvinging within Protestantism, let alone to the more orthodox who hold to the Catholic faith.

It is not the lack of action, but the lack of repentence, which shows a lack of faith, which is a damnable sin. You are certainly saved by grace alone. But as even CH Spurgeon teaches, “Genuine faith in God creates a prompt obedience.” If you disobey, you lack faith. You show by your actions that you are truly a child of God. Conversely, you show by your actions that you are truly a child of Satan. You are judged by not just your words, but what is in your heart, and what you do with the gifts you are given, and by what you don’t do with such gifts. If you lack the obedienc of faith, you lack righteousness and are not truly regenerated as you presume.

As I understand it, I’m saved by grace but only as it is manifested through the sacraments ie…baptism.

You understand it incorrectly. For example, Cornelius was saved prior to receiving sacramental baptism. God certainly established his sacraments as a normative means of conveying his Grace, but they are not the only means. God is not limited by his creations, to include His Sacraments. It is still important to note that Cornelius, although already having received the Spirit of God, was still sacramentally baptized. It’s called the obedience of faith.

Nonetheless, if you know perfectly well that God desires that you become sacramentally baptized, and with perfect consent of will you reject the will of God, then you have no faith in you. Actions speak louder than words.

It isn’t the lack of works that damns you, but the lack of divine faith and repentence. St. Paul’s Epistle of Romans opens and closes with emphasis on the “obedience of faith.” It’s important, or it ought to be, even for Protestants. If faith is ever decoupled from from charity or from what Paul calls the “obedience of faith,” than it is necessarily decoupled from hope until you turn again towards Christ in faithful obedience to Him.

 

[Church_Militant]

Neither of you guys have bothered to answer my post which is # 4 above.

I note that you have lots of “Bible only” rhetoric and lots of attack dog vehemence but very little charity or consideration. Plus you have no reference to just plain old God-given common sense, so that you can make you cases for what YOU think the passages in question mean as opposed to what the whole of Christianity believed and practiced up until 487 years ago. you’re the guys with all the NEW doctrines that you should be defending, not us who have held to the same NT Christianity of the early church. you have NO historic leg to stand on with your arguments and why would we care, since you two are just two more of a huge mob of confused people and if we were to line 'em all up and ask them to tell us about baptism, we’d be buried in all the divergent views and they’d straight way forget about us and begin to argue among themselves.

You may think that we know nothing about the Bible, but we know enough to tell that confusion and discord is the work of the devil and lack of charity is not a sign of Christ’s presence.

To put it all in good Protestant terms for ya. It all stems from the refusal to submit to the valid authority of those put over you in the church. You are in rebellion and out from under the “covering” of that authority that you tell others to submit to.

Now…can you and your buddy PLEASE calm down and take a look at post 4 and give me your best answer without all the attack dog bit?

 

[TNT]

josiah:

So, if my circumstances don’t prevent me from being baptized and I don’t get baptized, then into dante’s fire I go.
As I understand it, I’m saved by grace but only as it is manifested through the sacraments ie…baptism. However, the sacraments in their self are works. So, in reality I’m really saved by works and not grace.

Stay with the bible:
“…shall not enter the Kingdom of heaven”
Where does it say you end up in burning hell fire?
“He who does NOT BELIEVE shall be condemned”
The Kingdom of Heaven is the full absorbtion into the Beatific vision of God. ANYTHING less that than that is NOT the Kingdom of Heaven.
The house is built on a foundation (grace) the frame (faith) is built on the foundation. The interior is furnished by the owner (works under grace).
Was the house built on a foundation (grace)? Could the interior be sustained only with the foundation (grace) supporting it? Without a doubt.
Faith (frame) without works (interior decor) is DEAD! And, may I add sterile and ugly.
Fortunately for you, Buying a Bible and reading the Bible is a WORK! Learning the Word of God from others is a work on their part.
“How shall they hear if no preacher” (God’s worker)
You will convince no one here with a mummie-fied religion.

 

[TNT]

**Josiah’s Attempt to answer some questions. **

2Thes:2:15: Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Q: So, before I was able to read or understand Scripture, was I saved or not?
Q:If I have a retarded child not able to understand Scripture or even to read it, are they saved or not; Perfect or not?
Josiah answers:

The 2 Thes passage is a good passage and I don’t refute the oral teachings of the APOSTLES. However, **I **seriously question if the oral teachings (traditions) of the catholic church that are taught today are in line with the apostles taught (I know this is should be discussed in another thread). My biggest hang up is that there seems to be contradictions between catholic tradition and scripture. (TNT. Which means to me that yes I believe it but no, those did not get properly preserved. So we cannot know anything about them and can no longer follow them because I have a big hangup, and that is what determines truth for me. Josiah calls that Faith.)

Q: So, before I was able to read or understand Scripture, was I saved or not?

This question is more about salvation than it is about scripture.
As a fundamentalist, I believe in salvation by faith alone. Paul said that faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

Rom 10:17 Then faith is of hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

So to answer your question, I would say no you would not have to be able to read Scripture to be saved, but **you would **have to be able to understand it if someone orally communicated the Gospel.
Now, the simple question was: before I was able to read or understand Scripture, was I saved or not?
Josiah’s answer is:
**
**
****but you would ****have to be able to understand it if someone orally communicated the Gospel

But of course, that was the question: BEFORE I was…able to Understand!
So, your answer is NO because one could not even understand.

Not only that, I would need the “WORKS” of another in having it orally communicated if I could understand. Just like Baptism…the works of another combined with my works of hearing, asking questions.

So, the answer I see is: NO you cannot be saved if you are not capable of understanding. Therefore the retarded are never saved, nor are those below the age of reason.

---

This is your belief? Did I get it right?

 

[TNT]

Just tell us what church you want us to attend!
Is it the Churches of Christ?
If so, which flavor?

He will not even fess up to his faith. What a Christian! OuDave cannot answer spontaneous questions, because he is programmmed to make asertions only.
He has a tasel of questions waiting from this thread, and more where they came from, but he will not answer. He just runs like a rabbit in the grass from thread to thread, planting 3 year old droppings, just like he was trained to do.
Prove me wrong OUDAVE!

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

TNT:

He will not even fess up to his faith. What a Christian! OuDave cannot answer spontaneous questions, because he is programmmed to make asertions only.
He has a tasel of questions waiting from this thread, and more where they came from, but he will not answer. He just runs like a rabbit in the grass from thread to thread, planting 3 year old droppings, just like he was trained to do.
Prove me wrong OUDAVE!

If he is Church of Christ he will be back after he picks scripture out of context to attempt to attack your possition.Before anyone on the forum thinks I am being mean,I grew up in the Church of Christ and I kept reading when they stopped, I am now a thankful Catholic God Bless

 

[TNT]

Lisa4Catholics:

If he is Church of Christ he will be back after he picks scripture out of context to attempt to attack your possition.Before anyone on the forum thinks I am being mean,I grew up in the Church of Christ and I kept reading when they stopped, I am now a thankful Catholic God Bless

Good for you!
What other prot church demands baptism required for salvation? That’s OUDAVES belief according to him. Plus, he insists he’s not a denomination.
.
So close yet so far… the COC

 

[jeffreedy789]

what is it with hijacking ‘baptism’ threads??

 

[TNT]

jeffreedy789:

what is it with hijacking ‘baptism’ threads??

The COC’s distinguising belief from other prots is Baptism saves… just like Catholics.
The BAPT & the COC add their distinguising mark as
IMMERSION and denying original sin, thus ADULTS ONLY baptism. (COC has a baptist heritage from T & A. Campbell etc.)
They believe they have the solid backing of our bible, which we preserved for them for 1200 short years, while we were corrupting all other things.
Personally, I want my babies in the same Church I’m in just like the Israelites did. Plus, we get to Baptize “whole households”… the Bible way.
They have to leave the little ones outside the gates.

Matthew 19:14 Mark 10:14

but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs.”
So, what do they do? Stop them.
IS 52:15 He shall sprinkle many nations, kings shall shut their mouth at him: for they to whom it was not told of him, have seen:
Ez 36: I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will remove from your body the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my spirit within you, and make you follow my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. Then you shall live in the land that I gave to your ancestors; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.
So what do they do? Thwart the prophecies and dunk’em…
Acts2:38-39.
Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you** in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you, for your children,** and for all who are far away, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to him."
So what do they do? deny the promise to their children, until they are young adults “at the age of reason” where they can sin and repent. If they die, before that, then they are just like the Virgin Mother.

that phrase, “whom the Lord calls,” goes right back to Joel, Joel 2:32.

 

[jeffreedy789]

hm. so - was that last post an answer to ‘why do people keep hijacking baptism threads?’?

i wonder, because you seem to be using scripture to back up a position i wasn’t challenging. so… like half your post seems to be defending something that’s not being attacked.

i’m just trying to understand your post, and ergo, the entire thread. thanks.