Baptism

[rev_kevin]

Where is this in the Bible: “old enough to make their own decision for Christ”? If you believe that, why isn’t it in the Bible? How do you even know what to call the Bible? It doesn’t contain the word “Bible” within its pages.

In Christ,
Andrew

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who “believes” in him will not perish but have eternal life.” John 3:16

Use you common sense. You know this to be true that a infant can’t believe. To believe is more then a intellectual agreement that Jesus is God. It means to put our trust and confidence in him that he alone can save us. Believing is both trusting his word as reliable and relaying on him for the power to change.

Now can a infant do that?

How do you know the Catholic faith is the true religion, the word Catholic isn’t witin its, the Bible, pages eather?

What do you call the Bible if not Bible since the word is not in its pages?

 

[Dokimas]

Neither can adults who have never committed any personal sins, and yet, they still need to be baptized. Obviously, if you have no sins, you can’t repent, so you don’t need to. God requires of us only what is possible. And there is no way that God is requiring us to, first, go commit a sin, so that you can repent, so that you can then be baptized and be saved from Hell. That would make absolutely no sense at all.

Have you meet an adult who hasn’t personally sinned? I haven’t. Paul said all have sinned. I tend to agree with him.​

On the contrary, I’m a sinner that sins. I’m not proud of the fact, just a realist and honest enough to admit that I’m a sinner.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Neither can adults who have never committed any personal sins, and yet, they still need to be baptized. Obviously, if you have no sins, you can’t repent, so you don’t need to. God requires of us only what is possible. And there is no way that God is requiring us to, first, go commit a sin, so that you can repent, so that you can then be baptized and be saved from Hell. That would make absolutely no sense at all.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Dokimas]

Sorry to state the obvious, but they didn’t live in modern times, back then.

People back then didn’t use birth control, and women didn’t remain single when they were adults - they got married, and had kids - lots and lots of kids. “A quiver full of sons” the Bible says. 12 boys, plus how ever many girls you get while getting the boys. Plus, they had their household servants. Think of every machine you have in your house, and realize that back then, that work would have been done by a servant (answering machine = the butler; washing machine = the scullery maid; dishwasher = the kitchen maid; the telephone = the messenger boy) - realize that each of those servants also has a spouse and children, who are also considered to be members of your household.

Could it be you who missed the obvious: not all households have infants all the time. Why is it so hard to admit this?

 

[jmcrae]

Now can a infant do that?

An infant can’t do anything else. He is certainly not relying on his own intelligence and abilities, is he?

 

[Dokimas]

An infant can’t do anything else. He is certainly not relying on his own intelligence and abilities, is he?

Could you expand on this so I can understand your point?

 

[jmcrae]

Could it be you who missed the obvious: not all households have infants all the time. Why is it so hard to admit this?

No, but out of five households in that culture, it boggles the imagination that none of them would have had children under the age of seven.

 

[jmcrae]

Could you expand on this so I can understand your point?

To “put your faith in God” is to set aside your reliance on your own intelligence and abilities, and to rely on God (through other people) to take care of you, and to supply for you the needs that you can’t meet for yourself, by your own independent action. Since an infant is unable to meet any of his own needs by means of independent action, he is relying on God 100% for his care.

 

[rev_kevin]

Sorry to state the obvious, but they didn’t live in modern times, back then.

People back then didn’t use birth control, and women didn’t remain single when they were adults - they got married, and had kids - lots and lots of kids. “A quiver full of sons” the Bible says. 12 boys, plus how ever many girls you get while getting the boys. Plus, they had their household servants. Think of every machine you have in your house, and realize that back then, that work would have been done by a servant (answering machine = the butler; washing machine = the scullery maid; dishwasher = the kitchen maid; the telephone = the messenger boy) - realize that each of those servants also has a spouse and children, who are also considered to be members of your household.

Catholics don’t believe in birth control or use it so that means that every Catholic household should always have a infant in it.
On the contrary it has been proven that they used condum made out of sheep or lamb intestines.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Did the authors intend for Holy Scripture to be used as a picture for justifying limitless division at the whim of someone’s “interpretation?” It makes no sense to divorce Holy Scripture from the Church. Otherwise, you become schizophrenic.

In Christ,
Andrew

Maybe exactly for this cause and other similar abuses, like using the “Red Sea” as a picture for infant baptism, is why there was divorce.

 

[Dokimas]

Easy. Acts 2:38-39. Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

Let’s look a little closer … “Repent” choose to understand personal sin and turn away; then "be baptized in the Name of Jesus (I thought it was to be in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit); ater that comes the promise of the Holy Spirit. That promise then will be not theirs only but to their children and all who are far off – what must children do to receive the promise of the Holy Spirit? “Repent and be baptized”​

The promise was given for the future event of ‘repenting and being baptized.’

 

[Dokimas]

To “put your faith in God” is to set aside your reliance on your own intelligence and abilities, and to rely on God (through other people) to take care of you, and to supply for you the needs that you can’t meet for yourself, by your own independent action. Since an infant is unable to meet any of his own needs by means of independent action, he is relying on God 100% for his care.

I have not problem with what you said until you said parenthetically (through other people).​

Are you saying a child is able to understand it is relying on God 100%?​

To say an infant must be baptized is to say God doesn’t love them. God so loves them He provided something far better than baptism – He provided the Blood of Jesus.

 

[rev_kevin]

An infant can’t do anything else. He is certainly not relying on his own intelligence and abilities, is he?

Exactly they can’t believe eather.

 

[jmcrae]

Catholics don’t believe in birth control or use it so that means that every Catholic household should always have a infant in it.

Actually, it should - and the fact that so many Catholics don’t follow the teachings of the Church is really going to hurt us when we are outnumbered by the unbelievers.

On the contrary it has been proven that they used condum made out of sheep or lamb intestines.

This was done by Englishmen who went to prostitutes in the medieval era; nobody was doing that in Palestine during the first century.

 

[rev_kevin]

So you see how silly it is to posit demands for proof-texting on the Bible with things completely foreign to it, i.e. “believer’s baptism.”

In Christ,
Andrew

So infant baptism is completely foreign in the Bible?

 

[Dokimas]

No, but out of five households in that culture, it boggles the imagination that none of them would have had children under the age of seven.

There were only 5 households in that culture? Of course not.​

The same Greek word was used in the following:
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.​

Any infants in that household?

 

[rev_kevin]

Actually, it should - and the fact that so many Catholics don’t follow the teachings of the Church is really going to hurt us when we are outnumbered by the unbelievers.

This was done by Englishmen who went to prostitutes in the medieval era; nobody was doing that in Palestine during the first century.

So if a Caholic don’t follow the teachings of the Church and they use birth control they are unbleievers. So you are saying that the Catholic faith is producing unbelievers. Oh maybe not they are using birth control.

Oh ya they were read history.

 

[jmcrae]

So if a Caholic don’t follow the teachings of the Church and they use birth control they are unbleievers.

No. I am saying that they are not producing enough Catholic children, and that the non-Catholics are going to outnumber us, eventually.

 

[rev_kevin]

No. I am saying that they are not producing enough Catholic children, and that the non-Catholics are going to outnumber us, eventually.

Ok I see what you are saying. You want the Catholics to be the Duggers with, what is it now 20 children. Be fruitful and multiply we can’t let the non-Catholics take over abolish the true church. Is that what your saying?

 

[Dokimas]

No. I am saying that they are not producing enough Catholic children, and that the non-Catholics are going to outnumber us, eventually.

The way the early church got new members was by preaching the Gospel of Jesus the Christ. Living and preacing Christ is the best way to increase a church. In fact it is the NT way. If Paul thought that having babies was the way God wanted it, he would not have told us not to marry if we can, would he have?