Baptism

[Rocket_Man]

. This is what Hebrews 10:22 is saying as well " let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water"

This has nothing to do with water baptism. This has everything to do with the practice of the old priesthood “sprinkling” the blood and water and now, through Jesus Christ.

“For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,”

 

[Rocket_Man]

Baptism is the manner in which that washing is applied to the individual.

Act 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

The Apostles referred to baptism as the “washing of regeneration”. They never separated water from the circumcision done without hands by the HS. In baptism, we are united with Him in His death and resurrection.

It is a thread about baptism, Dokimas.

I think you might be making an erroneous assumption here.

guan, you studied Greek right? Is it sprinkle or pour?

For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses:

 

[guanophore]

. This is what Hebrews 10:22 is saying as well " let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water"

This has nothing to do with water baptism. This has everything to do with the practice of the old priesthood “sprinkling” the blood and water and now, through Jesus Christ.

Baptism is the manner in which we are cleansed by the blood of Christ. Why do you supposed it says “bodies washed with pure water” if it has nothing to do with water?

It amazes me the lengths that people will go to deny anything that sounds too “Catholic”.

How do you suppose that their disciples misunderstood them so quickly?

 

[guanophore]

guan, you studied Greek right? Is it sprinkle or pour?

Both terms are used in different contexts. John the baptist submerged, as did the Apostles, upon the instruction of Jesus.

When Phillip took the Ethiopian, they both went under the water. The Apostles never separated the HS from the water, from the time Jesus entered the waters of baptism, and joined the HS to them.

Sprinkling is used as a reminder of baptism, which involves submersion or pouring.

 

[Rocket_Man]

. This is what Hebrews 10:22 is saying as well " let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our **hearts sprinkled clean **from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water"

This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke:

"You shall give it to Eleazar the priest, that he may take it outside the camp, and it shall be slaughtered before him; and Eleazar the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger, and sprinkle some of its blood seven times directly in front of the tabernacle of meeting. Then the heifer shall be burned in his sight: its hide, its flesh, its blood, and its offal shall be burned. And the priest shall take cedar wood and hyssop and scarlet, and cast them into the midst of the fire burning the heifer. Then the priest shall wash his clothes, he shall bathe in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp; the priest shall be unclean until evening. And the one who burns it shall wash his clothes in water, bathe in water, and shall be unclean until evening. Then a man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer, and store them outside the camp in a clean place; and they shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for the water of purification; it is for purifying from sin. And the one who gathers the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until evening. It shall be a statute forever to the children of Israel and to the stranger who dwells among them.

For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water

 

[guanophore]

This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke:

"You shall give it to Eleazar the priest, that he may take it outside the camp, and it shall be slaughtered before him; and Eleazar the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger, and sprinkle some of its blood seven times directly in front of the tabernacle of meeting. Then the heifer shall be burned in his sight: its hide, its flesh, its blood, and its offal shall be burned. And the priest shall take cedar wood and hyssop and scarlet, and cast them into the midst of the fire burning the heifer. Then the priest shall wash his clothes, he shall bathe in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp; the priest shall be unclean until evening. And the one who burns it shall wash his clothes in water, bathe in water, and shall be unclean until evening. Then a man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer, and store them outside the camp in a clean place; and they shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for the water of purification; it is for purifying from sin. And the one who gathers the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until evening. It shall be a statute forever to the children of Israel and to the stranger who dwells among them.

For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water

Rocket, you have correctly related the OT figures to their NT fulfillment.

What you seem to be missing is that this cleansing by the blood is applied to the individual in water baptism. In baptism, we are united to Him in His death, and our sins, both original and personal, are washed away. We are brought into His Body, and made members one of another.

 

[Rocket_Man]

How do you suppose that their disciples misunderstood them so quickly?

I think they understood them perfectly.

**Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? **

And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. **And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. **

And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand

 

[Rocket_Man]

What you seem to be missing is that this cleansing by the blood is applied to the individual in water baptism. In baptism, we are united to Him in His death, and our sins, both original and personal, are washed away. We are brought into His Body, and made members one of another.

The water is meaningless unless it is mixed with the perfect blood. Christ Jesus, being the perfect sacrifice, through his blood purified the heavenly alter and from His death we are sprinkled with the blood and water that poured from His body.

Baptism is symbolic of the new covenant made in the heart of a believer.

He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.

 

[guanophore]

I think they understood them perfectly.

Then why did they continue to baptize infants? If the Apostles did not really mean what they said (“the promise is to you and your children”) then why would they continue to baptize infants and children?

 

[guanophore]

The water is meaningless unless it is mixed with the perfect blood. Christ Jesus, being the perfect sacrifice, through his blood purified the heavenly alter and from His death we are sprinkled with the blood and water that poured from His body.

Yes, of course. However, Jesus gave us a bloodless sacrifice with which to unite us to Him in the Eucharist.

Christianity did not absorb the Mithraic rites. We do not undergo a bath of acutal blood. In baptism, we are united with Him in His death on the cross. It is by His shed blood that the perfect expiation for our sins is made. He clothes us in white garments. Don’t you read in the book of Revelation that the saved are wearing white, washed in the blood of the Lamb? They are not red with blood, but white! This is why white garments are given to the baptized.

Baptism is symbolic of the new covenant made in the heart of a believer.

You will not find this anywhere in Scripture. It is a modern innovation of American Evangelicalism.

The Apsotles taught that baptism effects what it symbolizes.

He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.

It is by this blood we are supernaturally washed in baptism.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Then why did they continue to baptize infants? If the Apostles did not really mean what they said (“the promise is to you and your children”) then why would they continue to baptize infants and children?

Were they baptizing infants or saying this promise is for you and all generations to come.

 

[Rocket_Man]

You will not find this anywhere in Scripture. It is a modern innovation of American Evangelicalism…

I have given you several examples. Here is another.

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses:

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Were they baptizing infants or saying this promise is for you and all generations to come.

You give a 20th century interpretation of scripture if you think this scripture excludes infants (children) ? when it mentions “those afar off” to include future generations after including their children to the promise of baptism; Here read it for yourself;

Acts 2:38-39
Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. For **the promise is made to you and to your children ****and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.” **;

Scripture never excludes infants (children) from baptism. In fact Jesus teaches about never prevent children from coming to him.

Mk 10:13-16
And people were bringing children to him that he might touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. **When Jesus saw this he became indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not prevent them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.” **… Then he embraced them and blessed them, placing his hands on them.

Baptism is a requirement in order to be saved; And Spirit from scripture is never to be taken “symbolically” but a reality of the Third person of the blessed Trinity.

Jn 3:5
Jesus answered (Nicodemus), “Amen, amen, I say to you, **no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.” **

Gal 3:25-27
But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a disciplinarian. For through faith you are all children of God in Christ Jesus.** For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. **

1 Cor 12:12-13
As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ.** For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit.**

Titus 3:5
… not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy,** he saved us through the bath of rebirth (baptism) and renewal by the holy Spirit. **

1 Pet 3:20-21
God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. **This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. **

Rom 6:3-4
**Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life. **

Col 2:12
**You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. **

To the Colossians, Paul paralleled baptism and circumcision. Circumcision was normally administered to children eight days after birth.

Col 2:11-12
In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ. **You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. **

 

[guanophore]

Were they baptizing infants or saying this promise is for you and all generations to come.

Both!

Infants, children, slaves, elders, disabled. Those who could not speak for themselves were brought by the faith of others.

T Baptism is symbolic…

This idea cannot be supported by Scripture.

I have given you several examples. Here is another.

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses:

No, Rocket. There is nothing in these passages that is "symbolic’ at all. On the contrary, they describe actual spiritual realities.

 

[Rocket_Man]

No, Rocket. There is nothing in these passages that is "symbolic’ at all. On the contrary, they describe actual spiritual realities.

Everything that was practiced externally by the old preisthood, the sprinkling of the water and blood on the alter and the people, is now applied internally to the heart of the believer at the moment of salvation. Christ being the perfect sacrifice and now High Priest, who from His body poured the pure water mixed with His blood at his death through His Spirit now sanctifies the sinner’s heart.

The water baptism is an external witness to the sprinkling (washing) of that which has already occured in the heart of the believer.

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses:

 

[Rocket_Man]

Acts 2:38-39
Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. For **the promise is made to you **and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.” ;

If the promise were as Peter said “Repent and be baptized”, How could the children repent? And how could the children hear is they were not called?

 

[Rocket_Man]

Infants, children, slaves, elders, disabled. Those who could not speak for themselves were brought by the faith of others.

Where there is no repentance there is no forgiveness of sins. Even Helen Keller, deaf, blind, and mute since childhood knew about God before she was able to communicate with other humans.

Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

“And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul that thou mayest live.”

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

If the promise were as Peter said “Repent and be baptized”, How could the children repent? And how could the children hear is they were not called?

One main point you appear to be missing is what the promise is? and who it is for? The promise of the Holy Spirit which gives eternal life to “ALL”, not just adults or to a select few. The repent and be baptized is an answer from St.Peter when he responded to the Israel’s question?

Acts 2:37 “Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, **and they asked Peter and the other apostles, “What are we to do, my brothers?” **
Acts 2:38-39
Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.” ;

In order to recieve the Gift of salvation Grace in the Holy Spirit (baptism by fire) one must be baptised. Those of the age of reason must repent of their sinful ways and be baptized into Jesus Christ. Peter is making a proclamation of such that he states “everyone” must be baptized in Jesus name. Note St.Peter is not applying the baptismal formula in the singular name of the blessed Trinity. The promise is made to “ALL” those who are in need of repentance, and those infants who have not engaged in mortal sin, but recieve the promise also, and are washed from original sin of Adam from the fall of our humanity.

Orginal sin is removed at baptism because Jesus commanded his apostles and those who succeed them to baptize “ALL NATIONS”.

**1John 1:8
If we say, “We are without sin,” we deceive ourselves, 3 and the truth is not in us.
9
If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.
10
If we say, “We have not sinned,” we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. **

**King David clears this up from his Prophetic Psalm 51:A psalm of David, **
2
when Nathan the prophet came to him after his affair with Bathsheba.
3
Have mercy on me, God, in your goodness; in your abundant compassion blot out my offense.
4
Wash away all my guilt; from my sin cleanse me.
5
For I know my offense; my sin is always before me.
6
**Against you alone have I sinned; I have done such evil in your sight That you are just in your sentence, blameless when you condemn. **
7
2 True, I was born guilty, a sinner, even as my mother conceived me.
8
Still, you insist on sincerity of heart; in my inmost being teach me wisdom.

cont.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Please read St. Paul’s teaching on orignal sin from these few of many scriptural apostolic teachings. (one thing we are not touching on that deals with this topic on a Spiritual level, is the biblical teaching between the Spirit and the flesh) that correspond to the flesh which we are born with and the Spirit which we recieve in baptism.

Romans 5:8 -10
Indeed, if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, once reconciled, will we be saved by his life.
11
Not only that, but we also boast of God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
12
4 **Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned 5 – **
14
**But death reigned from Adam to Moses, **even over those who did not sin **after the pattern of the trespass of Adam, who is the type of the one who was to come. **
15
**But the gift is not like the transgression. For if by that one person’s transgression the many died, how much more did the grace of God and the gracious gift of the one person Jesus Christ overflow for the many. **
16
And the gift is not like the result of the one person’s sinning. For after one sin there was the judgment that brought condemnation; but the gift, after many transgressions, brought acquittal.
17
**For if, by the transgression of one person, death came to reign through that one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of justification come to reign in life through the one person Jesus Christ. **
18
**In conclusion, just as through one transgression condemnation came upon all, so through one righteous act acquittal and life came to all. **
19
**For just as through the disobedience of one person the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of one the many will be made righteous. **
20
The law entered in 6 so that transgression might increase but, where sin increased, grace overflowed all the more,
21
7 **so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through justification for eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. **

Romans 3:23
**all have sinned **and are deprived of the glory of God.

1Cor.15:21
For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being.
22
**For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life, **
44
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual one.
45
So, too, it is written, “The first man, Adam, 21 became a living being,” the last Adam a life-giving spirit.
46
But the spiritual was not first; rather the natural and then the spiritual.
47
The first man was from the earth, earthly; the second man, from heaven.
48
As was the earthly one, so also are the earthly, and as is the heavenly one, so also are the heavenly.
49
**Just as we have borne the image of the earthly one, we shall also bear the image 22 of the heavenly one. **
50
23 24 This I declare, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
55
Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"
56
The sting of death is sin, 27 and the power of sin is the law.
57
**But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. **
58
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be firm, steadfast, always fully devoted to the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

Galatians 3:27
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ

 

[benidict]

Some believe that baptism is to replace circumcism. This would bring that understanding into question.

hi dokimas. long time no hear. lol! actually, if you look into the pentatuch. moses baptized the entire congregation in blood before they went to meet their God at the Holy mount. all the israelites including their children were sprinkled with blood to be purified before meeting their God. so it goes way back even during the time of circumcision. peace be with you.