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Gabriel_of_12
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The book of Acts from its beginning only introduces the baptism of Jesus, all others reveal no significance to salvation. Let us be clear here, the baptism of John the baptist is no more after the resurrection. The book of Acts is a record after the resurrection, it does not record two valid baptisms only One baptism in One faith in One Lord Jesus Christ. If anything the book of Acts teaches that the One baptism of Jesus Christ surpersedes the previous baptism of John which is no longer after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The reality is there can only be One baptism never two.
As far as the washing, is a biblical description that takes place. The outer washing pertained to John’s baptism. **The baptism by fire which removes **original sin, and actual sin including punishment of sin from both infants and adults, God is not a respector of persons. God is the IAM. The baptism of John delt with the outer filth of the body, the baptism of Jesus deals with the eternal soul the inner man, which will be given a new body in eternity at the last judgement. The flesh is of no avail, when it is the Spirit that gives life.
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Dokimas
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I agree with this, not that that’s a big deal. The question is whether the baptism of Jesus is water baptism or baptism with the Holy Spirit.
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Gabriel_of_12
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It is both; Jesus baptism in the Jordan, blessed the waters of the earth for humanity to recieve the regeneration (rebirth) of life in Jesus Christ. Water is the visible sign through which God makes a new creation in us, when we enter into his Kingdom in the Spirit. This is how the finger of God touches humanity. Just as Jesus healed the blind man with spittle and dust. God works through his physical creation to commune (touch) humanity. Just as God took on flesh in his Son Jesus Christ, when the Divine meets his physical creation and saves it at the same time from eternity.
John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, **no one can enter **the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
Acts 8:36,38
As they traveled along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “Look, there is water. What is to prevent my being baptized?” … Then he ordered the chariot to stop, and Philip and the eunuch both went down into the water, and he baptized him.
Acts 10:47
“Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people, who have received the holy Spirit even as we have?”
Eph 5:26
… to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word,
Can God save outside his Sacraments? which are a visible sign instituted by Jesus Christ to give Grace to the believer. Yes, God can, if? he so will’s it; the Catholic church never limits God’s power. The Catholic church just obeys her husband and master Jesus Christ when he commissioned the Catholic Church to baptize and teach;
Matthew 28:18
11 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
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Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
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teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”
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Dokimas
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Gabriel_of_12
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Gabriel_of_12
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Dokimas; a clue to Jesus mystical teachings when he uses the word Spirit; Spirit in all of scripture is never to be interpreted as symbolic or a metaphor. The Spirit is an eternal reality more so than our physical world. He is our teacher, and being the Third person of the blessed Trinity, reveals to us, and recalls to our memory all Jesus revealed to us. Armed with this biblical knowledge would shed light on the shadows of scripture.
Peace be with you
Peace be with you
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Dokimas
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I’m not sure why you think you have to clue me in on the Holy Spirit. May I misspoke or you misunderstood me. I’d agree with all of what you said, as I understand your meaning.
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Dokimas
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jmcrae
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It is BOTH. This is what you don’t seem to understand. In John 3:5, Jesus uses the word AND. He does not say “water, which is a symbol of the Holy Spirit” nor “The Holy Spirit, which is a symbol of water” - He requires BOTH - water AND the Holy Spirit.
Baptism is how we become Christians. Do you want your children to be Christians? If so, then you should baptize them, as early as possible. Why would anyone leave his child in the darkness of original sin and death, for even a moment longer than necessary?
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Dokimas
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It is BOTH. This is what you don’t seem to understand. In John 3:5, Jesus uses the word AND. He does not say “water, which is a symbol of the Holy Spirit” nor “The Holy Spirit, which is a symbol of water” - He requires BOTH - water AND the Holy Spirit.
Baptism is how we become Christians. Do you want your children to be Christians? If so, then you should baptize them, as early as possible. Why would anyone leave his child in the darkness of original sin and death, for even a moment longer than necessary?
My children are baptized. They got baptized when there were old enough to make the decision for themselves.
I’m not sure why you’re telling me that it is both. I agree. I never said water was a symbol of the Holy Spirit.
The question isn’t whether both, but what water is referring to. I offered that I thought if referred to birth. It could refer to the Word because the Word of God is referred to as Water. That makes sence too.
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jmcrae
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What if they had not lived to be that old? Could you live with yourself, not having them baptized as early as possible?
Why is it so complicated, for you? The water is water. It’s that wet stuff that comes to us from the mountains, by means of the rivers, and flows in to the oceans and the lakes.
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Dokimas
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What if they had not lived to be that old? Could you live with yourself, not having them baptized as early as possible?
Why is it so complicated, for you? The water is water. It’s that wet stuff that comes to us from the mountains, by means of the rivers, and flows in to the oceans and the lakes.
God loves children of all ages. If I can’t trust Him that if He wants to take my children from me that He will take them to Himself, then I can’t trust Him for anything. God won’t be put into our little boxes, whether they are baptism boxes, salvation boxes or New Testament Ark box.
Your making a false assumption: it is not complicated for me. I may not understand it fully, but it seems straight forward to me. Baptism isn’t in the context at all. Births are the context.
What John 3:5 means is up to God; He inspired it.
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jmcrae
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It is a Commandment, that we must obey. We don’t have the luxury of sitting around wondering what it means. Jesus said, “If you love me, you will obey my commandments.” (John 14:15)
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Gabriel_of_12
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The most ancient of text is written in Greek with a Hebrew faith spoken in Aramaic, now translated to our new languages.
We are progressing here; Recap; "No one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and spirit. All ancient Christians from antiquity have interpreted this gospel as meaning “Baptism”.
“That which is born of flesh is flesh” “and that which is born of Spirit is Spirit”, we have now moved away from the condition of entering the Kingdom of God by being born of Water AND Spirit. Jesus speech now becomes forcefully in the Truly Truly or Amen Amen, the being born of flesh is no longer a condition from the line of Abraham ( John 1:11 He came to what was his own, but his own people 7 did not accept him. 12 But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name, 13 ** who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man’s decision but of God). **
This is a fulfillment of John the baptist’s prophecy; John 1:32
John testified further, saying, “I saw the Spirit come down like a dove 24 from the sky and remain upon him.
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I did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘On whomever you see the Spirit come down and remain, he is the one who will baptize with the holy Spirit.’
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25 Now I have seen and testified that he is the Son of God.”
Jesus speaks of two birth’s here (a typological reading introduces and covenant understanding) Nichodemus knows of only the birth of the flesh from Adam. The flesh of flesh is a birth on earth, the birth of the Spirit is from above (heaven), the birth of the flesh suffers mortality, the birth of the Spirit is from eternity, the flesh birth comes from male and female, the birth of the Spirit comes from God (husband) and the Church (bride). The most amazing conclusion of this dialogue is that neither birth can never be repeated.
Am I to understand from you here, that the birth of the Spirit is achieved by water baptism as the scriptures confirm? Or do you have another understanding of interpretation? I ask this so as not to draw any false conclusions from your interpretation.
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guanophore
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I don’t either. Although, I do know some people who took the “Bible as Literature” class who seemed to be able to read them and not be affected.
You don’t understand because it is not happening, except in your imagination. I am not attacking anything. I am saying that God saves us together. When we are baptized, we are made members one of another. He saves us individually, and as a Body. The promise was made “to you and your children”. He has always included the children in the covenant. They are not excluded from the New Covenant either.
Yes, and he that was baptized as an infant is does not necessarily act like a Christian, does he? The faithless Jew is no less circumcised, and the faithless Catholic is no less baptized.
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guanophore
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This behavior is contrary to the Teaching of the Church. It is regrettable, and a whole generation of us did not learn to read the the scriptures. The fact that men (and women ) sin, and the devil invades the church does not mean the church is wrong.
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guanophore
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Rocket you have been given so much misinformation about the Catholic Church. The Church cannot burn anyone at the stake.
There is no place in Scripture that says baptism is the 'outward sign of an inward change". This thinking is a departure from the Apostolic Teaching.
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Gabriel_of_12
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God does not change, man does; God included 8 day old infants into the Covenant with him. God includes all “households” in his new covenant in Jesus Christ.
Do you have a scripture verse that excludes infants from being baptized? One point is for certain from scripture; **No one **can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
Jesus warns humanity do not Keep the Children from Him and the Kingdom of God belongs to these, little ones; One translation states “they brought infants in arms to him”
Mk 10:13-16
And people were bringing children to him that he might touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. When Jesus saw this he became indignant and said to them, **"]“Let the children come to me; do not prevent them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.” **…
Mt.18:1
1 At that time the disciples 2 approached **Jesus and said, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” **2
**He called a child over, placed it in their midst, **
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and said, "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, 3 you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
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Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
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4 **And whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me.
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"Whoever causes one of these little ones 5 who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. **
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