E
Elizium23
Guest
Desecration? What, praytell, was consecrated that they could desecrate it?
- Status
C
Church_Militant
Guest
If you watched it, then go into the “flag” link and flag it so that they will pull it.
It promotes hate speech and by example, violence against Catholics and our property.
I dare some clown to come up in my yard and try to smash a statue.
He’ll be lucky if just the dog gets him. :nunchuk:
It promotes hate speech and by example, violence against Catholics and our property.
I dare some clown to come up in my yard and try to smash a statue.
He’ll be lucky if just the dog gets him. :nunchuk:
G
GraceDK
Guest
An interesting thread indeed.
You all remember a few weeks back, someone said they had inherited some new age books and asked us what to do with them, and all responded: burn them.
I was rather surprised… because it seems theres much different thoughts abour what should happen to diffent books… many of you were up in arms when the Quran was burned, representing a religion that takes many more astray than New Age does.
Anyway, to the point. A statue is not a person, and to these Christian brothers the statue doesn’t even represent the true Virgin Mary. They smash it to make a point about idolatry, a point which we should agree with, namely that idolatry is bad, and heathen temples should be laid waste, and there made way for the one true worship of Christ.
These brothers haven’t anything against the Virgin Mary, they have something against whom they believe to be an idol made by Catholic tradition. An idol worshipped in the place of God, and an idol whom people hope in and expect help and mercy from in a way only appropriate towards God.
I think we need to ask ourselves why Protestants continuously get the idea that we worship statues.
For that reason, I don’t think Mary has something against this man. I think she might be proud of him, because whereas he doesn’t understand Catholicism, he has zeal for Christ and for destroying what he perceives to be leading away from Christ. I think God sees that in his heart, and so does the Virgin Mary.
You all remember a few weeks back, someone said they had inherited some new age books and asked us what to do with them, and all responded: burn them.
I was rather surprised… because it seems theres much different thoughts abour what should happen to diffent books… many of you were up in arms when the Quran was burned, representing a religion that takes many more astray than New Age does.
Anyway, to the point. A statue is not a person, and to these Christian brothers the statue doesn’t even represent the true Virgin Mary. They smash it to make a point about idolatry, a point which we should agree with, namely that idolatry is bad, and heathen temples should be laid waste, and there made way for the one true worship of Christ.
These brothers haven’t anything against the Virgin Mary, they have something against whom they believe to be an idol made by Catholic tradition. An idol worshipped in the place of God, and an idol whom people hope in and expect help and mercy from in a way only appropriate towards God.
I think we need to ask ourselves why Protestants continuously get the idea that we worship statues.
For that reason, I don’t think Mary has something against this man. I think she might be proud of him, because whereas he doesn’t understand Catholicism, he has zeal for Christ and for destroying what he perceives to be leading away from Christ. I think God sees that in his heart, and so does the Virgin Mary.
C
CountrySteve
Guest
hey were’ that verse at cause I’ve been having a ruff time lately with statues i mean i no they ain’t wrong as long as you don’t worship the statue but I’ve just been wanting to look for some Bible verses about the subjectI find it hilarious that they endlessly cite the bit about “graven images”, but ignore the proximate verse that tells us God Himself ordered Moses to construct statues of angels in the Holy of Holies. There is no consistency when your entire ministry is based on emotion and centered on man.
M
mark_a
Guest
Most of the devout Baptists I know are the worst examples of their religion.
P
PiousTemplar
Guest
Church Militant, you’re awesome. Sorry, random post. I find all your posts either hilarious or incredibly supportive. God Bless you!
C
Church_Militant
Guest
What can I say? It’s a gift.:tanning:
J
Jim_Dandy
Guest
I’m glad you straightened me out. I thought statues were persons. Golly, gee, what a shock to find out they’re not!.
To these brothers and sisters a statue does indeed represent the true Virgin Mary. Their point about idolatry should be made against idolators, not Catholics. Catholics worship the one and only Triune God. If Catholics worshipped idols, he – and you – would have a point.
“Something against whom they believe to be an idol” is your personificiation of plaster and paint.
These brothers do indeed have something against the Virgin Mary – I, being born and bred a Protestant, grew up believing as they do. I used to pray on my knees for you idol-worshipping Catholics. They get the idea from a misreading of Sacred Scripture, from a practice called proof-texting. This is the preacher’s opinion, it is not fact.
God judges everyone by their heart. Hatred for Christ’s Mother is deep in this guy’s heart, and he’s teaching it to others. His ridicule of Catholics and Catholicism is bigotry in the highest degree. He and his congregation need our prayers.
It is said by many that anti-Catholicism is the last socially acceptable prejudice left in America. Amen.
Jim Dandy
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!
J
Jim_Dandy
Guest
Then which one is “Steve Williams,” whose name flashes across the screen while this debacle is in progress? I thought he was the one doing the preaching.
It’s pathetic to watch. Profound ignorance displayed publicly.
Jim Dandy
J
Jim_Dandy
Guest
Here are some verses, Country Steve:
GRAVEN IMAGES
The word, “graven,” means cut, chiseled, or engraved. God’s commandment against graven images refers to the worship of idols shaped by human hands, in the style of the pagans. It clearly did not mean that all images are inherently evil – neither statues in or churches, nor photos in our wallets. In fact, on many occasions God himself specifically directs the Israelites to fashion images of various types. So clearly it is the worship of such images that is an abomination, not the images themselves.
What is the commandment?
Exodus 20:36 – “You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Protestants split the first commandment: “You shall not make for yourself a graven image” and made it the second commandment. Neither the Jews nor the Catholic Church do this. This was done in Protestant Bibles to zing the Church.
Exodus 25:18-21 – God directed the Israelites to decorate the Ark of the
Covenant with images of angels: “And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat you shall make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be. And you shall put the mercy seat on top of the ark; and in the ark you shall put the testimony that I shall give you. There I will meet with you . . . ‘
Exodus 26:31 – Embroidered images were also fashioned for the sanctuary of the Ark: “And you shall make a veil of blue and purple and scarlet stuff and fine twisted linen; in skilled work shall it be made, with cherubim . . .”
Exodus 37:7-9 – (construction of the Arc of the Covenant) : “And he made two cherubim of hammered gold; on the two ends of the mercy seat he made them, one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat he made the cherubim on its two wings; of one piece with the mercy seat he made the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, with the faces one to another, toward the mercy seat were the faces of the cherubim.
2 Chronicles 3:10-14 – “Graven images” of angels were constructed for the temple as well: “In the most holy place he made two cherubim of wood and overlaid them with gold. The wings of the cherubim together extended twenty cubits: one wing of the one, of five cubits, touched the wall of the house, and its other wing, of five cubits, touched the wing of the other cherub; and of this cherub, one wing, of five cubits, touched the wall of the house, and the other wing, also of five cubits, was joined to the wing of the first cherub. The wings of these cherubim extended twenty cubits; the cherubim stood on their feet, facing the nave. And he made the veil of blue and purple and crimson fabrics and fine linen, and worked cherubim upon it.”
This could never be permitted if images were forbidden by God.
2 Chronicles 4:4 – Figures of twelve metal oxen stood in the temple: (After description of construction of an altar of bronze, a molten sea, and gourds) “It stood upon on twelve oxen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south, and three east, with their haunches all toward the center . . .”
1 Kings 6:23 – Solomon had cherubim made for the temple: “In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high.”
1 Kings 7:29 – There was a large assortment of images visible in the temple: “and on the panels that were set in the frames there were lions, oxen, and cherubim. Upon the frames both above and below the lions and oxen . . .”
Ezekiel 41:17-20 – The face of a man and other likenesses were carved [graven] in the temple “…And on all the walls round about in the inner room and the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim and palm trees, a palm tree between cherub and cherub. Every cherub had two faces: the face of a man toward the palm tree on the one side, and the face of a young lion toward the palm tree on the other side. They were carved on the whole temple round about, from the floor to above the door cherubim and palm trees were carved on the wall.”
Hebrews 9:5 – In the New Testament also, it was reported that images adorned the temple. “…above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat.”
Jim Dandy
continued - see Part 2
J
Jim_Dandy
Guest
Part 2 - Continued
For Country Steve (and interested others):
Numbers 21:8 – This is a clear violation of the supposed prohibition against making images of creatures. The fact that God ordered it means that Protestants are misinterpreting the commandment about images. “And the Lord said to Moses, ‘Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.”
John 3:14-15 – The Israelites were saved after Moses followed God’s instructions and made a figure of a snake and held it up before the people. Either God made a commandment telling man not to make images, then told him to break the commandment, or else – he didn’t forbid making images and Protestants are wrong in their interpretation. “And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.”
Isaiah 45:20 – “They who are without knowledge who bear wooden idols and pray to gods that cannot save.” It is the worship of false gods that is forbidden, not making art. Nowhere do the scriptures forbid us from making images – graven or otherwise. They forbid us to worship images – or anyone or anything other than the One True God.
Jim Dandy
For Country Steve (and interested others):
Numbers 21:8 – This is a clear violation of the supposed prohibition against making images of creatures. The fact that God ordered it means that Protestants are misinterpreting the commandment about images. “And the Lord said to Moses, ‘Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.”
John 3:14-15 – The Israelites were saved after Moses followed God’s instructions and made a figure of a snake and held it up before the people. Either God made a commandment telling man not to make images, then told him to break the commandment, or else – he didn’t forbid making images and Protestants are wrong in their interpretation. “And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.”
Isaiah 45:20 – “They who are without knowledge who bear wooden idols and pray to gods that cannot save.” It is the worship of false gods that is forbidden, not making art. Nowhere do the scriptures forbid us from making images – graven or otherwise. They forbid us to worship images – or anyone or anything other than the One True God.
Jim Dandy
T
TimothyH
Guest
I wish I could.
I suspect that he only stopped after a phone call or visit from someone high up in the State Department, CIA or FBI. He backed down just a day or two before his threatened act, didn’t he? I’m sure there was a phone call or something warning him of the worldwide unrest he was about to cause.
-Tim-
T
TimothyH
Guest
GraceDK, your post adds a lot of interest to the thread for me, and I thank you for it. I believe you bring up some good points about the man and his intention. At lease we should consider your points in light of Christian charity and what we think of him.
I’m really not understanding your comment however, about needing to ask ourselves why Protestants continuously get the idea that we worship statues. I"m not challenging the comment, just truly trying to undersand why we need to understand where they get the idea and then when we do understand, what it is that we can actually do about it.
I don’t belive you are suggesting that we remove all the statues of Mary to placate Protestants, or that we discontinue pious acts in front of images, veneration of relics, etc. From a pragmatic point of view, what are we supposed to do? If it is a matter of communication or education, what more can we do that has not already been done? And will it really help?
I’d welcome explanation of the comment.
-Tim-
M
Mark_David
Guest
Yes, you’re right - I do recall now that he didn’t go through with it. Probably also for “health reasons”, if you know what I mean.
P
psi
Guest
It’s called Blessed Evangelical Mary: Why We Shouldn’t Ignore Her Any Longer
familychristian.com/shop/product.asp?prodID=141210&name=Timothy%20George-Blessed%20Evangelical%20Mary:%20Why%20We%20Shouldn
For behold, from now on, all generations will call me blessed. (Luke 1:48)
Of the myriad of changes that have taken place in the Western Church since the dawn of the Reformation, few have been as complete or polarizing as the definitive view of Mary. In fact, one could make the case that Protestants view of Mary is at times more focused on being non-Catholic than it is a true biblical understanding of this amazing woman who was chosen by God to bear His son.So, how “should” Evangelicals understand, represent and revere Mary? The author encourages retrieval of the five explicit aspects of Mary’s calling and ministry: Daughter of IsraelVirgin mother of JesusTheotokos (Mother of God)Handmaiden of the WordMother of the church
Is it possible that evangelicals’ too frequent silence about Mary is prejudicial to their full relationship with Jesus Christ?
J
justtryin
Guest
He did end up doing it.
Daily Mail
dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1368543/Florida-preacher-Terry-Jones-burns-Koran-bizarre-trial-execution-crowd—30-people.html
Not saying I agree or disagree. Only that I remembered.
T
TrueLight
Guest
Hi Janet,
I agree with some of your posts, but why would Jesus be more comfortable with Mary than God the Father? I don’t believe that is correct.
M
Madaglan
Guest
The iconoclasts, by rejecting the image, reject the prototype; and although they may quote Scripture ad infinitum do not partake with Christ and the saints.
- Status