Baptists and Mary

[mtr01]

I posted this in another forum awhile back, but as regards to the Church Fathers, this is what St. Irenaeus had to say about the subject in *Adversus Haereses *(c. 180 AD):

Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, “Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.” But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise “they were both naked, and were not ashamed,” inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the [some translations have “a”]** cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race**.

newadvent.org/fathers/0103322.htm
See also *The Teachings of the Church Fathers *by John Willis.

Granted, it’s not 1st century. However, it’s apparent that this belief has been around since the Church was very young. Believing otherwise was considered a heresy by the early Church.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

rarndt01:

Michael

You better read par.#969 again. Here is a partial quote with emphasis:

“Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this SAVING office but by her manifold intercession continues TO BRING US the gifts of ETERNAL SALVATION . . . .”

REPLY- That IS blasphemy. Only God through Jesus Christ can give us the gift of eternal through Jesus Christ and NOT Mary. See Romans 6:23

Ron from Ohio

The gifts of eternal salvation are virtues like charity, wisdom, prudence and also grace. Those are gifts of salvation. Christ purchased salvation for us. Christ alone was the sacrifice, but He allows us to cooperate in the salvific plan.

peace

btw, I am struggling to learn and deepen my understanding of God and His reality and how we cooperate, too. Its definitely a good idea to get more learned sources like the CCC and encyclicals than just knocking about the forums.

 

[Sarah_Jane]

rarndt01:

Michael

You better read par.#969 again. Here is a partial quote with emphasis:

“Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this SAVING office but by her manifold intercession continues TO BRING US the gifts of ETERNAL SALVATION . . . .”

REPLY- That IS blasphemy. Only God through Jesus Christ can give us the gift of eternal through Jesus Christ and NOT Mary. See Romans 6:23

Ron from Ohio

"Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men … flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it." “No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.” (CCC, 970)

 

[rarndt01]

What Irenaeus REALLY meant?

When this church father stated that by Mary’s obedience salvation was granted to her and all mankind, he didn’t mean Mary was vested with some special power to grant salvation, but she simply allowed salvation to come to man, by becoming pregnant with Jesus and giving birth TO HIM. Jesus is the one through whom salvation is obtained and he alone. Acts 4:12
Ron from Ohio

 

[rarndt01]

Sarah Jane

Let me ask you this. Is Christ alone sufficient enough to come to him for all your needs? What would you ask of Mary, to ask Jesus, that you couldn’t come to Jesus directly and ask for? Jesus said, “Come UNTO ME, all ye that are heavy laden and I will give your soul rest”. He said, “I am the good SHEPHERD and I know my sheep and they know me.” Jesus further said, " I am the way, the truth and the life, he that comes TO me will never die, but has ETERNAL LIFE. for he has passed from death to life." So what is lacking in Jesus, that you must find it necessary to ask Mary, to ask Jesus for?

                                        Ron from Ohio

 

[Sarah_Jane]

rarndt01:

Sarah Jane

Let me ask you this. Is Christ alone sufficient enough to come to him for all your needs? What would you ask of Mary, to ask Jesus, that you couldn’t come to Jesus directly and ask for? Jesus said, “Come UNTO ME, all ye that are heavy laden and I will give your soul rest”. He said, “I am the good SHEPHERD and I know my sheep and they know me.” Jesus further said, " I am the way, the truth and the life, he that comes TO me will never die, but has ETERNAL LIFE. for he has passed from death to life." So what is lacking in Jesus, that you must find it necessary to ask Mary, to ask Jesus for?

Ron from Ohio

"Q: **I always understood the Bible to say that there is one mediator between God and Man, the man Jesus Christ. For this reason, it seems wrong to me to ask Mary to intercede for us. **
**A: **Jesus is certainly the only Mediator in the sense that he his the only God-man, the only Person who serves as a bridge between the human and the divine in that way, as 1 Timothy 2:5 (the verse you quote) indicates.

**However, Jesus’ unique role as the only God-man does not mean that nobody else gets to pray for us. This is clear if you read 1 Tim. 2:1-4, in which Paul says that we should all pray for everybody. So in the very same passage that Paul describes Jesus as the one Mediator, he also says that we should all pray and intercede for others. This is what Mary and the other heavenly saints do for us, just as people down here on earth do. **

When you ask another Christian here on earth to pray for you, you are asking an earthly saint to intercede on your behalf. When you ask Mary to pray for you, you are doing the exact same thing, only it is a heavenly saint instead. Protestants ask earthly saints to pray for them; Catholics simply broaden this to all of the family of God and ask out heavenly brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for us as well as our brothers and sisters here on earth.

In fact, we know they pray for us already because, if you read Revelation 5:8, you will see the twenty-four elders (who represent the leaders of the people of God in heaven) offering to God the prayers of the saints. Thus we have the heavenly saints offering to God the prayers of the earthly saints. Thus we only ask our heavenly brothers and sisters to do what they are already anxious to do on our behalf, just as our earthly brother and sister Christians wish to pray for us whenever we are in need.

Source : cin.org/users/james/questions/q062.htm

 

[Sarah_Jane]

rarndt01:

What Irenaeus REALLY meant?

When this church father stated that by Mary’s obedience salvation was granted to her and all mankind, he didn’t mean Mary was vested with some special power to grant salvation, but she simply allowed salvation to come to man, by becoming pregnant with Jesus and giving birth TO HIM. Jesus is the one through whom salvation is obtained and he alone. Acts 4:12

Ron from Ohio

“Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith” (*Against Heresies *3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

 

[jimmy]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

"And Mary said:
“My soul exalts the Lord,
And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.” ( Luke 1:46-47 )

What did God save Mary from?

“you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.” ( Matthew 1:21 )

“To give to His people the knowledge of salvation
By the forgiveness of their sins” ( Luke 1:77 )

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Jesus saved her from her sins to be protecting her and giving her the grace before she ever sinned.

If a child is going to fall into a pool and drown you can either save him before he falls in or after he falls in. They would both be saving the child.

 

[jimmy]

I think that God kept her from sin partly in order to show to the world that we as humans can do the same and to show that humanity can choose God.

Jesus staying sinless is not quite the same because he is God, but if Mary, a human, stays sinless then that shows that we can also be holy.
I hope you guys understand what I am trying to say.

 

[ahimsaman72]

jimmy:

I think that God kept her from sin partly in order to show to the world that we as humans can do the same and to show that humanity can choose God.

Jesus staying sinless is not quite the same because he is God, but if Mary, a human, stays sinless then that shows that we can also be holy.
I hope you guys understand what I am trying to say.

Jimmy, a little alarm went off in my head when I read this. Are you saying that we can be sinless also? or simply holy? I would agree that we can be holy, but disagree that we can be sinless. They are not the same thing in my mind. Sinless would mean totally without sin. Holy would imply a standard of living - how we conduct ourselves.

 

[rarndt01]

Nowhere is it stated by any early church father that Mary grants eternal salvation, eternal gifts to anyone period. These are gifts only God grants. Remember him? Hello? Sure Mary was called the new Eve, but not MY REDEEMER. I know in whom I trust in for my salvation and it isn’t Mary, but the one who DIED FOR ME. His name is Jesus Christ.

Mary became the new Eve BY HER OBEDIENCE, but not our CO-REDEEMER. No, No,No, No, No. There is only one Savior and redeemer and that is Jesus Christ.

Understand this, if you understand anything. To be a redeemer, you must redeem something or purchase something. Jesus did that by PAYING the price for our sins. Mary didn’t die for our sins!!! So she can’t be a CO- redeemer period. Do you understand a little now. You see, Jesus did something. He DIED HORRIBLY ON A CROSS for you and I. Mary did not. I must repeat myself, because posters are giving EQUAL titles to Mary which rightly belong to our Lord.

Mary is MANY things. Holy, pure, ever virgin, Mother of God and our spiritual mother in heaven. But she wasn’t appointed Queen, sitting next to the triune God and she is not our CO- redeemer. It just ain’t so.

Ron from Ohio

 

[Sarah_Jane]

rarndt01:

Nowhere is it stated by any early church father that Mary grants eternal salvation, eternal gifts to anyone period. These are gifts only God grants. Remember him? Hello? Sure Mary was called the new Eve, but not MY REDEEMER. I know in whom I trust in for my salvation and it isn’t Mary, but the one who DIED FOR ME. His name is Jesus Christ.

It’s the position of the Church.

"Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men… flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it." “No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.” (CCC, 970)

 

[mlchance]

rarndt01:

Nowhere is it stated by any early church father that Mary grants eternal salvation, eternal gifts to anyone period.

Given your extremely shoddy track record regarding actually knowing what any early Church Father said or didn’t say, perhaps you should start being a bit more circumspect. Or haven’t you noticed that almost every time you claim something that someone comes along and demonstrates that you’re wrong?

That point aside, the Church has never said that Mary’s grants salvation. Non sequitur, Ron.

rarndt01:

I must repeat myself, because posters are giving EQUAL titles to Mary which rightly belong to our Lord.

As has been pointed out ad nauseum in a number of different threads, Mary is not being placed on equal status with God. The prefix “co-”, as in co-mediatrix, does not mean “equal.” It means “with,” and Church teaching is quite clear that Mary’s role is always subordinate to that of Christ Jesus.

Non sequitur, Ron.

You’re constantly making false statements (i.e., no one in the early Church ever referred to Mary as the Ark of the Covenant) or else accusing the Church of teaching things that she doesn’t teach (i.e., that Mary’s role is equal to that of Christ Jesus).

I believe that there are commandments against lying and bearing false witness. Perhaps you ought to review them.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[rarndt01]

Mark Chance

I have read the early fathers Mark and none of them put Mary up on a pedestal as Marian devotees do today. Also co whatever, does mean equal. in position. If someone is a co-chairman of a company, then they share equal authority in that company. So who’s telling the truth here Mark?

Saved through Jesus and not by Mary

Ron from Ohio

 

[mlchance]

rarndt01:

I have read the early fathers Mark

Given your demonstrated lack of knowledge about what they actually wrote, I suggest a re-read is in order.

rarndt01:

Also co whatever, does mean equal. in position. If someone is a co-chairman of a company, then they share equal authority in that company. So who’s telling the truth here Mark?

Who’s telling the truth here, Ron. Here’s a clue: Not you.

“Co-” can mean “equal.” It also can mean “with,” as checking any reasonably complete dictionary will show. For example, click here. Pay careful attention to definition 3b. This is the definition that Church uses when using the prefix “co-” along with certain Marian titles.

This is entirely fitting since the Church plainly and consistently teaches that, apart from Christ Jesus, the Blessed Virgin is nothing.

So, unless you somehow have been made the author of Catholic doctrine, my point stands: You are making false claims and false accusations.

Please refer to those two commandments I alluded to earlier.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[kramerbaby]

I didn’t want to start an argument! I just wanted to know why some believe that and how to refute them. But, aslong as no one is getting hurt, I am getting a few good pointers here… of what I DONT want to happen. Please, when you arrue, be respectful, and try not to sound as if you are yelling. I don’t want people getting mad here.

 

[mayra_hart]

and i quoted from a former fundamentalist " it is in very much the same sense that catholics use the final title that bothered me- “mediatrix of all grace”. let us start at the beginning. evangelicals can agree that the son’s mission was possible only after he was incarnated. what they sometimes fail to remamber is that the incarnation was possible only when mary agreed to it. it is inconceivable that god the holy spirit would force himself on mary to enable god the son to become human. mary did say yes to gabriel, and it was then that the incarnation became a reality. of course, god knew she would say yes, but that is beside the point. in giving birth to christ, mary mediated god’s graces (christ) to all humanity." thank you mr david currie:tiphat: dios te salve maria llena eres de gracia el senor es contigo y bendita tu eres entre todas las mujeres…

 

[mrS4ntA]

rarndt01:

Nowhere is it stated by any early church father that Mary grants eternal salvation, eternal gifts to anyone period. These are gifts only God grants. Remember him? Hello? Sure Mary was called the new Eve, but not MY REDEEMER. I know in whom I trust in for my salvation and it isn’t Mary, but the one who DIED FOR ME. His name is Jesus Christ.

Mary became the new Eve BY HER OBEDIENCE, but not our CO-REDEEMER. No, No,No, No, No. There is only one Savior and redeemer and that is Jesus Christ.

Understand this, if you understand anything. To be a redeemer, you must redeem something or purchase something. Jesus did that by PAYING the price for our sins. Mary didn’t die for our sins!!! So she can’t be a CO- redeemer period. Do you understand a little now. You see, Jesus did something. He DIED HORRIBLY ON A CROSS for you and I. Mary did not. I must repeat myself, because posters are giving EQUAL titles to Mary which rightly belong to our Lord.

Mary is MANY things. Holy, pure, ever virgin, Mother of God and our spiritual mother in heaven. But she wasn’t appointed Queen, sitting next to the triune God and she is not our CO- redeemer. It just ain’t so.

Ron from Ohio

And he got offended when I asked if he was a heretic…
You are a Catholic, I gather? What you are saying is in blatant, outright denial of the Church’s teaching. If that is not formal heresy, I don’t know what is…

Oh, where IS the Holy Inquisition when you need them?

“De Maria numquam satis amoris.”

 

[Scott_Waddell]

But she wasn’t appointed Queen, sitting next to the triune God

You may be right technically that she wasn’t appointed Queen, but only in the sense that Christ was not appointed King. They are King and Queen because of who they are.

In the Bible notion of kingship, the mother of the king is queen.
Mary is the mother of Jesus, the King.
Therefore, Mary is the Queen.

The facts and Biblical logic are overwhelming–there is nothing to complain about here.

Scott

 

[ahimsaman72]

Scott Waddell:

You may be right technically that she wasn’t appointed Queen, but only in the sense that Christ was not appointed King. They are King and Queen because of who they are.

In the Bible notion of kingship, the mother of the king is queen.
Mary is the mother of Jesus, the King.
Therefore, Mary is the Queen.

The facts and Biblical logic are overwhelming–there is nothing to complain about here.

Scott

Can you give me an example of this “Bible notion of kingship, the mother of the king is queen”? Just curious.