Baptists, Does Scripture point to the Catholic Lord's Supper/Eucharist?

[Rightlydivide]

Not sure what you just said, but my point remains. It wasn’t just Ignatius, belief in the real presence permeates the early Church and remains today. If you want to believe anything written in antiquity that disagrees with your view is fraudulent, well, whatever helps you sleep. Please show me any early Church writings (other than those condemed as heresy) that support your position.

Heresy=those that disagree with your churches view! I understand that the early church writings that remain support it. But Catholics love to quote those that support them and when a writer says that no one knows if Mary died, was martyred, or assumed…that is ignored. A non Catholic will always lose on the ECF because the only ones that matter are the ones that agree with you. Funny how that works out…Choose your own bishops and presbyters in your congregation? No, thats outdated, sorry Didache. Rip those pictures off the wall? No sorry Eusebius, those were just a few radicals. You get the point.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Heresy=those that disagree with your churches view! I understand that the early church writings that remain support it. But Catholics love to quote those that support them and when a writer says that no one knows if Mary died, was martyred, or assumed…that is ignored. A non Catholic will always lose on the ECF because the only ones that matter are the ones that agree with you. Funny how that works out…Choose your own bishops and presbyters in your congregation? No, thats outdated, sorry Didache. Rip those pictures off the wall? No sorry Eusebius, those were just a few radicals. You get the point.

Paul wrote about heresies in the passage we were discussing.

Christ protected His truth through the ages. We quote the early Church fathers because they were the successors of His Church.

If the Church was corrupted as you indicate, God had the power to protect His truth through the Church you say existed that was doctrinally correct. There was only one Church, that’s why there are no more writings and the Protestant view writings don’t date beyond the 1500s. That would indicate a gap in his truth being proclaimed and that just didn’t happen, according to the promises of Christ.

As for Bishops and presbyters, they weren’t ‘elected’ by the people, they were appointed through the laying on of hands by men of the Church. That allowed the authority of His Church to assure the truth had been passed on correctly.

 

[Teneas]

Heresy=those that disagree with your churches view! I understand that the early church writings that remain support it. But Catholics love to quote those that support them and when a writer says that no one knows if Mary died, was martyred, or assumed…that is ignored. A non Catholic will always lose on the ECF because the only ones that matter are the ones that agree with you. Funny how that works out…Choose your own bishops and presbyters in your congregation? No, thats outdated, sorry Didache. Rip those pictures off the wall? No sorry Eusebius, those were just a few radicals. You get the point.

Think it works both ways on this one. We should all be a bit more open minded of course. Early Church Fathers are dear to Catholic hearts, as they tend to be a whole lot more in line with how we practice than those of the Reformation of course.

Just as a non-Catholic will always “lose” on the ECFs, so will Catholics always “lose” on scripture quoted.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Paul wrote about heresies in the passage we were discussing.

Christ protected His truth through the ages. We quote the early Church fathers because they were the successors of His Church.

If the Church was corrupted as you indicate, God had the power to protect His truth through the Church you say existed that was doctrinally correct. There was only one Church, that’s why there are no more writings and the Protestant view writings don’t date beyond the 1500s. That would indicate a gap in his truth being proclaimed and that just didn’t happen, according to the promises of Christ.

As for Bishops and presbyters, they weren’t ‘elected’ by the people, they were appointed through the laying on of hands by men of the Church. That allowed the authority of His Church to assure the truth had been passed on correctly.

Until the sixth century the clergy and the people elected the bishop on condition that the election should be approved by the neighbouring bishops. Undoubtedly, the Christian Roman emperors sometimes intervened in these election, but outside the imperial cities only, and generally in the case of disagreement as to the proper person.
As a rule they contented themselves with exercising an influence on the electors. But from the beginning of the sixth century, this attitude was modified. In the East the clergy and the primates, or chief citizens, nominated three candidates from whom the metropolitan chose the bishop. At a later date, the bishops of the ecclesiastical province assumed the exclusive right of nominating the candidates. In the West, the kings intervened in these elections, notably in Spain and Gaul, and sometimes assumed the right of direct nomination

 

[SteveVH]

Heresy=those that disagree with your churches view! I understand that the early church writings that remain support it. But Catholics love to quote those that support them and when a writer says that no one knows if Mary died, was martyred, or assumed…that is ignored. A non Catholic will always lose on the ECF because the only ones that matter are the ones that agree with you. Funny how that works out…Choose your own bishops and presbyters in your congregation? No, thats outdated, sorry Didache. Rip those pictures off the wall? No sorry Eusebius, those were just a few radicals. You get the point.

Well, since there was only one Church for the first 1500 years yes, it would make sense that doctrines and theological arguments that contradicted the Church’s teaching would be condemned as heresy. The Church has constantly guarded the truth given to it from the beginning. As Paul’s epistles testify, the Church has always been bombarded by bad behavior and erroneous beliefs and it has always defended the truth. It is the reason for the great Church Councils; to refute heresies and, in response, further define its doctrines to remove all doubt of what it has always believed. The definitions weren’t necessary until they were challenged. Thus the difinitive term “transubstantiation”. It wasn’t a new concept, but in light of the challenges it faced with the Reformation, the Church found it necessary to define, in no uncertain terms, what the Church has always believed about the nature of Holy Eucharist.

If you wish to join the 5000 that walked away, you are free to do so. I think the general consensus is that they were wrong in their assessment of the situation. He meant what He said “unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you will have no life in you”. And how did the Apostles react? “Sure, Lord, we get it. Geez, I don’t know what’s wrong with them.” No, they didn’t get it either, but they believed. They believed because of the one who told them. “You have the words of eternal life”. So just because you don’t get it, don’t let that throw you. We believe because of the One Who told us.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Until the sixth century the clergy and the people elected the bishop on condition that the election should be approved by the neighbouring bishops. Undoubtedly, the Christian Roman emperors sometimes intervened in these election, but outside the imperial cities only, and generally in the case of disagreement as to the proper person.
As a rule they contented themselves with exercising an influence on the electors. But from the beginning of the sixth century, this attitude was modified. In the East the clergy and the primates, or chief citizens, nominated three candidates from whom the metropolitan chose the bishop. At a later date, the bishops of the ecclesiastical province assumed the exclusive right of nominating the candidates. In the West, the kings intervened in these elections, notably in Spain and Gaul, and sometimes assumed the right of direct nomination

Your source?

And if you read it closely, the people put forth a man that the had to be approved by Bishops.

 

[KathleenGee]

I have believed in the Eucharist my entire life.

I remember receiving my First Holy Communion and it was like my soul was scrubbed clean that it even hurt…another lady said she had the same experience…then in two years, I felt the Lord through the Eucharist and then reflecting on Him, come more into my mind to help me think more like a Christian pleasing to Him…

The sacramental life is a tremendous new life for those who seek Him more…

There are many good Christians who simply do not believe and are not drawn to the Sacrament…a priest said we must consider it a privilege that the Lord has given us the grace…

I am very saddened by Protestants who use the Word Made Flesh to fight and cause more divisions to His body…I even wonder now how many problems and catastrophes we have are in deed due to the fragmentation of Christianity in America.

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . . .On the other hand, I will defend my views as both valid and Christian. I have not giving you some trail of blood argument. Please stick to what I actually write. I will not defend what I have NOT (edit !) said.

Rightlydivide,

I appreciate your participation on this Thread.

I agree that we all must defend our views in our discussions. As the OP, I am asking for that very thing in this Thread.

I am looking for responses that include, this is what I believe; this is the Scripture that supports what I belief, and this is why I interpret the Scripture literally, or this is why I interpret the Scripture symbolically. If your beliefs have been influenced by ECF’s, Protestant Reformers, or Post-Reformation Protestant writers—please provide applicable quotes.

Would you comment on the Thread Topic (even though you are not Baptist) and directly address the passages of Scripture quoted, below? (I didn’t see any of these passages addressed in your posts, unless I missed one. Please let me know if I did.)

Thread Topic: Baptists, Does Scripture point to the Catholic Lord’s Supper/Eucharist?

**John 6: **48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh."

**John 6: **52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.

Matthew 26: 26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

**Mark 14: **22 And as they were eating, he took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, **“Take; this is my body.” **23 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. 24 And he said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.

1 Corinthians 10: 14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. 18 Consider the people of Israel: are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar?". . . .

Look forward to your comments.

Anna

 

[benidict]

WOW! thanks much for the links anna. God bless you and yours. it wasnt even this bad when i was a member of the baptist church. its nice to see how they really feel. lol! these threads have convinced me at least, not to engage them in debate. it would really be a waste of time. they also show me just how hateful i always thought they were. too bad. the sad part is i used to be part of these people. and it was their “mild” anti catholocism that in part led me to leave. Peace to you.

 

[Anna_Scott]

WOW! thanks much for the links anna. God bless you and yours. it wasnt even this bad when i was a member of the baptist church. its nice to see how they really feel. lol! these threads have convinced me at least, not to engage them in debate. it would really be a waste of time. they also show me just how hateful i always thought they were. too bad. the sad part is i used to be part of these people. and it was their “mild” anti catholocism that in part led me to leave. Peace to you.

Benidict,

I understand what you mean about anti-Catholicism leading in part to your leaving.

**As a sidebar to our Thread Topic: **I will say that my short visit, to the BaptistBoard.com Forums (BB,) was my last attempt to “test the Baptist waters.” Estrangement with the Baptist Church led to my struggles as a self-proclaimed “disenchanted Protestant.” For months here at CAF; I’ve written about my struggles within the Protestant Sector. I’m sure some of my friends here may be tired of hearing about it. If so, you would never know, as all have patiently listened. I’ve needed every word of support and encouragement so graciously given to me here.

I hadn’t taken that final step of formally resigning from the Baptist Church. I vacillated between “I’m no longer Baptist, and never going back” and “maybe I can reconcile and return to the Baptist Church.”

The vehement anti-Catholic rhetoric, and all that took place in a few days at BB–were the “last straw” for me. At least, I can leave the Baptist Church (formally) now; and feel good about moving forward in my Christian journey.

If you read through that entire BB Thread; you will find a few kind and respectful Baptists, posting responses to me, in the midst of the hurling of insults and false accusations posted by the majority.

There are many compassionate Baptist Christians devoted to the Christian walk. So, I do not want anyone to judge all Baptists by what happened at BB. There are some wonderful Baptists here at CAF. I really hope they will post on this current topic. I am hoping Rev Kevin will have some time to post more comments.

This whole experience had caused me to examine my own heart and my own charity issues. It is easy to forget the effect of the words we speak. I think back on some of the responses I’ve posted here at CAF; and cringe. Every word I speak matters; and I have repeated failed to remember the words of Scripture regarding every word I speak.

In my devotion for today, I ponder these Scriptures; and come to our Lord, with a repentant heart----posting these passages without judgment or reference to anyone, but myself and myself alone:

James 1 (ESV): 26 If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person’s religion is worthless. 27Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

James 3 (ESV): 3 If we put bits into the mouths of horses so that they obey us, we guide their whole bodies as well. 4 Look at the ships also: though they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are guided by a very small rudder wherever the will of the pilot directs. 5 So also the tongue is a small member, yet it boasts of great things. How great a forest is set ablaze by such a small fire!

6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell. 7 For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by mankind, 8 but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison. 9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God. 10 From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so. 11Does a spring pour forth from the same opening both fresh and salt water? 12 Can a fig tree, my brothers, bear olives, or a grapevine produce figs? Neither can a salt pond yield fresh water.

Thanks to all, for indulging my Sidebar.

Working out my salvation with fear and trembling,
Anna

 

[benidict]

Benidict,

I understand what you mean about anti-Catholicism leading in part to your leaving.

**As a sidebar to our Thread Topic: **I will say that my short visit, to the BaptistBoard.com Forums (BB,) was my last attempt to “test the Baptist waters.” Estrangement with the Baptist Church led to my struggles as a self-proclaimed “disenchanted Protestant.” For months here at CAF; I’ve written about my struggles within the Protestant Sector. I’m sure some of my friends here may be tired of hearing about it. If so, you would never know, as all have patiently listened. I’ve needed every word of support and encouragement so graciously given to me here.

I hadn’t taken that final step of formally resigning from the Baptist Church. I vacillated between “I’m no longer Baptist, and never going back” and “maybe I can reconcile and return to the Baptist Church.”

The vehement anti-Catholic rhetoric, and all that took place in a few days at BB–were the “last straw” for me. At least, I can leave the Baptist Church (formally) now; and feel good about moving forward in my Christian journey.

If you read through that entire BB Thread; you will find a few kind and respectful Baptists, posting responses to me, in the midst of the hurling of insults and false accusations posted by the majority.

There are many compassionate Baptist Christians devoted to the Christian walk. So, I do not want anyone to judge all Baptists by what happened at BB. There are some wonderful Baptists here at CAF. I really hope they will post on this current topic. I am hoping Rev Kevin will have some time to post more comments.

This whole experience had caused me to examine my own heart and my own charity issues. It is easy to forget the effect of the words we speak. I think back on some of the responses I’ve posted here at CAF; and cringe. Every word I speak matters; and I have repeated failed to remember the words of Scripture regarding every word I speak.

In my devotion for today, I ponder these Scriptures; and come to our Lord, with a repentant heart----posting these passages without judgment or reference to anyone, but myself and myself alone:

James 1 (ESV): 26 If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person’s religion is worthless. 27Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

James 3 (ESV): 3 If we put bits into the mouths of horses so that they obey us, we guide their whole bodies as well. 4 Look at the ships also: though they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are guided by a very small rudder wherever the will of the pilot directs. 5 So also the tongue is a small member, yet it boasts of great things. How great a forest is set ablaze by such a small fire!

6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell. 7 For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by mankind, 8 but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison. 9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God. 10 From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so. 11Does a spring pour forth from the same opening both fresh and salt water? 12 Can a fig tree, my brothers, bear olives, or a grapevine produce figs? Neither can a salt pond yield fresh water.

Thanks to all, for indulging my Sidebar.

Working out my salvation with fear and trembling,
Anna

hi anna, one thing i did take from the baptist denomination and am grateful for, is a love of studying the bible. this did not change by joining the Catholic Church. my Priest put it this way, by joining the Catholics, i lost nothing of my protestant background. i only was able to add the rest of the pieces that were missing. the eucharist, communion of the saints etc. the intercession of the Blessed Mother etc. also i learned the true meaning of Christ words. that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. we who are in Christ are alive. wheather in the body or out.Grace to you

 

[Anna_Scott]

hi anna, one thing i did take from the baptist denomination and am grateful for, is a love of studying the bible. this did not change by joining the Catholic Church. my Priest put it this way, by joining the Catholics, i lost nothing of my protestant background. i only was able to add the rest of the pieces that were missing. the eucharist, communion of the saints etc. the intercession of the Blessed Mother etc. also i learned the true meaning of Christ words. that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. we who are in Christ are alive. wheather in the body or out.Grace to you

Benidict,

Very nice comment.

I, too, will take the love of studying the Bible, where ever I go, along with other positive influences of the Baptist Faith.

Anna

 

[Rightlydivide]

Rightlydivide,

I appreciate your participation on this Thread.

I agree that we all must defend our views in our discussions. As the OP, I am asking for that very thing in this Thread.

I am looking for responses that include, this is what I believe; this is the Scripture that supports what I belief, and this is why I interpret the Scripture literally, or this is why I interpret the Scripture symbolically. If your beliefs have been influenced by ECF’s, Protestant Reformers, or Post-Reformation Protestant writers—please provide applicable quotes.

Would you comment on the Thread Topic (even though you are not Baptist) and directly address the passages of Scripture quoted, below? (I didn’t see any of these passages addressed in your posts, unless I missed one. Please let me know if I did.)

Thread Topic: Baptists, Does Scripture point to the Catholic Lord’s Supper/Eucharist?

**John 6: **48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh."

**John 6: **52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.

Matthew 26: 26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

**Mark 14: **22 And as they were eating, he took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, **“Take; this is my body.” **23 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. 24 And he said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.

1 Corinthians 10: 14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. 18 Consider the people of Israel: are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar?". . . .

Look forward to your comments.

Anna

Too much. Please specify the one or two to do first. I do not do shotgun apologetics.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Too much. Please specify the one or two to do first. I do not do shotgun apologetics.

There was only one question, or topic, and all scriptures point to that…

 

[Rightlydivide]

There was only one question, or topic, and all scriptures point to that…

I PREFER that she pick one or two so that I can do it it justice. The synoptics cover the same material but between Corinthians, the Synoptics, and then John 6 it will need individual treatment in my view. If she does not wish to do that, I am sure she will tell me that. I have a feeling based upon the tone of her thread, she will not mind narrowing it.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I PREFER that she pick one or two so that I can do it it justice. The synoptics cover the same material but between Corinthians, the Synoptics, and then John 6 it will need individual treatment in my view. If she does not wish to do that, I am sure she will tell me that. I have a feeling based upon the tone of her thread, she will not mind narrowing it.

Sometimes you have to read scriptures with scriptures to receive the full context. The best thing about this forum is the Bible study it makes one do.

 

[jmcrae]

I PREFER that she pick one or two so that I can do it it justice. The synoptics cover the same material but between Corinthians, the Synoptics, and then John 6 it will need individual treatment in my view. If she does not wish to do that, I am sure she will tell me that. I have a feeling based upon the tone of her thread, she will not mind narrowing it.

Maybe just answer what seems to be her main two questions:

What are all of these Scripture passages talking about, with the “bread”? If it isn’t the Eucharist, then what is it - what does the “bread” stand for, if not Christ in the Eucharist?

 

[AmateurPianist]

Since my response to her questions seem to have gone to thread purgatory, I will relink to them here.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Since my response to her questions seem to have gone to thread purgatory, I will relink to them here.

AmateurPianist,

I’m working on the response, now. Wanted to give it careful consideration.

Thanks for your patience.

Anna

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Luk 24:16 But their eyes were held, that they should not know him.
Luk 24:17 And he said to them: What are these discourses that you hold one with another as you walk and are sad?
Luk 24:18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleophas, answering, said to him: Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things that have been done there in these days?
Luk 24:19 To whom he said: What things? And they said: Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a prophet, mighty in work and word before God and all the people.
Luk 24:20 And how our chief priests and princes delivered him to be condemned to death and crucified him.
Luk 24:21 But we hoped that it was he that should have redeemed Israel. And now besides all this, to-day is the third day since these things were done.
Luk 24:22 Yea and certain women also of our company affrighted us who, before it was light, were at the sepulchre,
Luk 24:23 And not finding his body, came, saying that they had all seen a vision of angels, who say that he is alive.
Luk 24:24 And some of our people went to the sepulchre and found it so as the women had said: but him they found not.
Luk 24:25 Then he said to them: O foolish and slow of heart to believe in all things, Which the prophets have spoken.
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things and so, to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded to them in all the scriptures the things that were concerning him.
Luk 24:28 And they drew nigh to the town whither they were going: and he made as though he would go farther.
Luk 24:29 But they constrained him, saying: Stay with us, because it is towards evening and the day is now far spent. And he went in with them.
Luk 24:30 And it came to pass, whilst he was at table with them, he took bread and blessed and brake and gave to them.
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened: and they knew him. And he vanished out of their sight.
Luk 24:32 And they said one to the other: Was not our heart burning within us, whilst he spoke in the way and opened to us the scriptures?
Luk 24:33 And rising up, the same hour, they went back to Jerusalem: and they found the eleven gathered together, and those that were with them,
Luk 24:34 Saying: The Lord is risen indeed and hath appeared to Simon.
Luk 24:35 And they told what things were done in the way: and how they knew him in the breaking of bread.