Baptists, Does Scripture point to the Catholic Lord's Supper/Eucharist?

[rdscheirer]

Martin Luther himself stated that the bread and wine became the body and blood of the Lord Jesus. He also affirmed the perpetual virginity of Mary. Why have the protestants strayed so far from this learned man.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Martin Luther himself stated that the bread and wine became the body and blood of the Lord Jesus. He also affirmed the perpetual virginity of Mary. Why have the protestants strayed so far from this learned man.

rdscheirer,

Great question, though I don’t consider Martin Luther to be a great man.

One of my goals is to trace the belief in the Real Presence from the first writings of the ECF’s to the point, when Protestants abandoned the Sacrament. I really need to see that time line.

Anna

 

[Joshua27]

Joshua 27:

Interesting comment to find. I was just thinking about the assumption that our flesh could be compare to Christ’s flesh (as God Incarnate and the Sacrificial Lamb): two entirely different things.

Anna

Let me pose an interesting point of view, as provocative as it may sound:

---

Truly I say to you right now that there is no mystery…

The body of Christ is divided for you. That each new person who makes Christ’s Tabernacle [dwelling] within himself or herself causes the body of Christ to be broken; to be divided [as cells are divided in a physical body, which ultimately leads to the body’s growth]…and then given unto a new place; to make a new temple or a new home for the Spirit of God, so that all should be one in Christ as Christ is one in the Father.

[In the Father’s house there are many mansions/homes/dwellings]

Just as the loaves of bread & fish were miraculously broken, shared and multiplied for the multitude, everyone who consumes of the bread of life; (in other words) everyone who make the bread of life (Christ) present on their inward parts, has true life.

---

So now let me ask you, Christ was there…in front of his disciples…breaking the bread and sharing his cup…

Christ the Man was standing/sitting there, whole & complete…but he says, “this is my body which [is or will be] broken for you”. But whether the phrase is “is” or “will be”, Christ was standing/sitting there - whole and complete - right in front of them saying this.

Question 1: What is He? What IS Christ [Messiah]? Is He MAN or is He God incarnate as man?

If we aren’t sure we can reference scripture…
[John 1:1] In the beginning was the WORD…
[John 1:14] And the WORD was made flesh [incarnate human]…

So when we get to the core of what Christ [Messiah] is, He is the WORD of God. This is what He truly is…and he has been the WORD long before he was the fleshy part [which was only so he could dwell among (teach) us and then die (pay for) us…once and for all].

Question 2: How do we eat the true WORD of God? How do we drink the true WORD of God (that which he really is)?

Just think about the connotation…even if one believes in transubstanciation; that Christ is really present in the bread and wine, is He present in the flesh or in the spirit?

If he’s present “in the flesh”, he would not have been whole when he was talking to His disciples during the supper, would he…I mean, why not just carve off layers of of his skin to eat or puncture a vein to share blood that way?

If he’s present “in spirit”, then that which we’re told to consume; to make part of us, and to fellowship and to share is the Word of God; God’s Truth: (a) The truth of Christ’s sacrifice, and (b) the Spirit of God.

Christ [Messiah] is - and will always be - the Word of God. Put the Word of God in your mouth, make it a part of you, and also share it with someone else.

This is the Lord’s supper.

 

[jmcrae]

Look a few posts back…qui est ce responded to my question with a reference to Colossians 1:24 as if to suggest that Christ was speaking of continuing his own suffering, but I corrected her reference, showing that Paul was actually talking about himself and is own suffering…not Christ’s.

Right. He is adding his own suffering to the suffering of Christ on the Cross (as we should all do in times of trouble) for the salvation of the world. Any Christian can (and should) do this, during times of suffering.

If I’m not mistaken, this was the same Paul that wrote the letter to the Corinthians about the Lord’s Supper. One must assume that Paul’s point of view does not contradict itself from one group to another, so if we put his message to the Corinthians together with his message to the Hebrews, what conclusion is drawn about the Sacrifice of the Messiah?

Actually, we don’t really know who wrote the Letter to the Hebrews, although it has at times been attributed to St. Paul. In any case, we know that the Scriptures don’t contradict themselves, so your point still stands.

If it was a one-time act that counted for all sin forever, and if Pauls says that Messiah doesn’t dwell in any man-made holy place now but is in heaven, is the supper we’re supposed to partake in an act of “rememberance” (and “acceptance” of the power of the original sacrifice) or is it an act of “actual” sacrifice; and actual offering of our sins once again?

What the priest sacrifices at Mass is the bread and wine (this is the thanksgiving sacrifice of Melchizedek; hence the name “Eucharist” (thanksgiving) for this sacrifice). The substances of the bread and wine are taken up by the angels into Heaven, and displaced by the one and only Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross, made present on the Altar in the place of what once was bread and wine - so precisely displacing them that He retains the appearances, right down to the molecular level, of the bread and wine. However, by faith we know that it is really Him.

It is by this means that He makes it possible for us to obey His commandment (John 6:53-54) to eat His flesh and drink His blood, because otherwise, it would be physically (not to mention morally) impossible for us to obey that commandment. We also know that only those who obey His commandments - every last one of them - can be considered to love Him. (John 14:15)

 

[jmcrae]

The body of Christ is divided for you. That each new person who makes Christ’s Tabernacle [dwelling] within himself or herself causes the body of Christ to be broken; to be divided [as cells are divided in a physical body, which ultimately leads to the body’s growth]…and then given unto a new place; to make a new temple or a new home for the Spirit of God, so that all should be one in Christ as Christ is one in the Father.

[In the Father’s house there are many mansions/homes/dwellings]

Just as the loaves of bread & fish were miraculously broken, shared and multiplied for the multitude, everyone who consumes of the bread of life; (in other words) everyone who make the bread of life (Christ) present on their inward parts, has true life.

This is such a perfect description of what happens when people receive Holy Communion at Mass (they are receiving the living Christ into their very bodies, and each person thus becomes a living Tabernacle) that nothing further need be added to it.

 

[SteveVH]

There’s no doubt that Paul was uniting his suffering with that of Christ, but notice that Paul says, “in MY flesh I am filling up what is LACKING…”

Question: What is Paul lacking in HIS [Paul’s] flesh?
Answer: “Christ’s affliction on behalf of the Church”.

Also note that WHENEVER Paul wanted to use the words “sacrifice” or “offering” he used them…yet in this instance Paul uses the word “affliction”.

Affliction means “suffering”, not “offering or sacrifice”.

Paul is not consuming anything, he is stating that he is suffering as Christ suffered…and that he is glad of it.

Wow! My understanding has always been that Paul’s sufferings (along with all of those belonging to the body of Christ, the Church) allow him to participate in the suffering of Christ, bringing redemptive value to our own suffering when united to Christ’s suffering.
It is not what is lacking in Pauls flesh, but what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions ( not that anything is lacking, but that we, as His body, participate in His suffering). It brings dignity to human suffering. I’m not sure that this is any reference to the Eucharist specifically, although the Eucharist is always connected to Christ’s suffering and death. We could not receive His body and blood until it was given for us.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Look a few posts back…qui est ce responded to my question with a reference to Colossians 1:24 as if to suggest that Christ was speaking of continuing his own suffering, but I corrected her reference, showing that Paul was actually talking about himself and is own suffering…not Christ’s.

OK. Didn’t see that.

I guess I’m supporting your point on this.

 

[SteveVH]

I believe there is an element of mystery in the Lord’s Supper (as many Christians do). So, I consider the possibility that one who comes to the table of Communion (with a heart prepared for the Sacrament,) may receive a “Communion with Christ” beyond their understanding.

I couldn’t agree more. The Eucharist is mystery because God is mystery. Anyone who approaches Christ with a prepared heart will receive a communion with Him, “beyond their understanding”. While this is true, it is not communion in the same sense as consuming His true presence, body, blood, soul and divinity. Please understand that I believe the fruits of a spiritual communion are valid and very real. Christ is also present “when two or more are gathered in my name”. He is present in the poor, the hungry, the homeless. My point is that He is present to us in many ways. But He is present in a special and unique way in the Eucharist.

St. John Chrysostom states: “It is not man that causes the things to be offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but he who was crucified for us, Christ himself. The priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God’s. This is my body, he says. This word transforms the things offered.”

St. Ambrose: “Be convinced that this is not what nature has formed, but what the blessing has consecrated. The power of the blessing prevails over that of nature, because by the blessing, nature itself is changed… Could not Christ’s word, which can make from nothing what did not exist, change existing things into what they were not before? It is no less a feat to give things their original nature than to change their nature.”

I do agree with you, to the extent that the Holy Spirit accomplishes the “communion with Christ” in the Lord’s Supper–through the mystery of this Holy Sacrament. I am slowly moving past a purely “remembrance” understanding of the Lord’s Supper. So, the fact that I am willing to acknowledge mystery in the Lord’s Supper is actually a big step for me.

I have been told, through one study or another, (can’t give you a source off the top of my head) that the word “remembrance” in the Jewish culture of that time meant to “return to” or “enter into”. The sacrifice of the Mass makes Christ’s passion, death and ressurection present to us today, now, at this hour. The Eucharist transcends time and so when we “remember”, we are actually present. How’s that for “mystery”? Yes, acknowledging “mystery” is a big step and prevents a lot of people from going forward. If they don’t “get it” then it can’t be true.

Determining whether or not Holy Scripture supports, or points to, the change of the substance of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ is the very purpose of this Thread. However, since the question is posed to Protestants (Baptists specifically–where are the Baptists?); we have to set aside the issue of the authority of the Catholic Church (at least for a moment); and consider what the Scriptures say.

Keep in mind, I do acknowledge the role of tradition in interpretation of Scripture. However, Baptists and many Protestants do not. So, we have to start with Scripture, and hope this will eventually lead to the consideration of tradition.

I know where your coming from and I believe (I’ll have to check) that previous posts have done a pretty good job quoting scriptures which support at least the fact that they believed they were consuming the body and blood of Jesus. The change in substance would be implied at the very least. While I don’t want to stray into “Tradition”, I will have to say that at the very least it must be considered simply as a way of determining what the early Church believed; before there was a Bible. It’s a little like someone having one volume of a two volume set of books and then asking you to prove your point from the one volume that they have because they have not read the second one. The objections do not negate the truth found in Tradition.

I’ll have to continue this. My original post was to long.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, in considering your comments; the logical question from a Protestant perspective, would be: if the Holy Spirit effectuates the change of the substance of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ, by repeating the words of Jesus; and this is not dependent upon the faith or even the holiness of the priest—why would it not be possible for the Holy Spirit to respond to the prayer of a Protestant Minister, who repeats the words of Christ before administering the Lord’s Supper? This question is posed through the lens of Protestantism. Again, I am simply thinking out loud: and pose the question to myself, as I pose it to you and others in the discussion.

Anna, you are so gentle. lol. Its a great question and one that I hope I can adequately answer. I think it all comes down to the office of the priesthood. Because it is Christ’s sacrifice, once, for all, that is offered to the Father, it requires a priest (one who offers sacrifice), acting in the person of Christ, to effectuate the sacrament. Speaking of priests, the Catechism of the Catholic Church says: “It is in… the Eucharistic assembly of the faithful that they exercise in a supreme degree their sacred office; there, acting in the person of Christ and proclaiming his mystery, they unite the votive offerings of the faithful to the sacrifice of Christ, their head, and in the sacrifice of the Mass they make present again and apply, until the coming of the Lord, the unique sacrifice of the New Testament, that namely of Christ offering himself once for all a spotless victim to the Father. From this unique sacrifice their whole priestly ministry draws its strength.”

Because the office of priest is handed down through the laying on of hands by a bishop, a successor of the Apostles, the office cannot be occupied by one who has not been ordained by a bishop. The unbroken line of succession is very important here. Priests are not elected or hired. Anyway, I think that is the Catholic perspective when it comes to those outside of the Church having authority to consecrate the bread and wine. Sorry it was such a long road getting there.

Now I’ll bet you’re really confused.

 

[ConfusedTim]

Hi:

As soon as I saw 98 minutes on the video, I aborted it.

You see I have satellite internet (living as I do in the boonies) and they have this annoying fair usage policy where if you exceed your bandwidth they make your internet practically unusable for a day. That usually happens at about 20 minutes.

The article by Scott Hahn touches a subject that to be honest I have not thought about. And that is communion as a sacrifice. I know I have heard the term “Sacrifice of the mass”. And I have heard the response in Hebrews about there being one sacrifice that is complete (I think these are the verses Joshua27 is quoting). And I am sure you have a response to those verses? Whether the response makes sense I dunno.

Hahn does use the phrase “Christ’s perpetual sacrifice”. For the time being I will withhold judgment on this phrase, but admittedly I am skeptical concerning any more sacrifice of Jesus after Calvary. So my questions are (to help me better understand) How can the risen Lord Jesus Christ even able to sacrifice Himself? What does He do to sacrifice Himself? How is this a sacrifice? Why does He do this? and What benefit does this sacrifice provide that is not a benefit of His work on the cross 2000 years ago?

The video is 90 mins and that put me off too but i started watching it and it was awesome. At the very least you should download the transcript which is achieveable even with a slow internet connection. Do it - i promise you will not regret it!

 

[AmateurPianist]

Hold on to 1 Thessalonians 5:21. I have quoted it a number of times in my posts. We seem to be on similar journeys, AP. It’s nice to have some company. It’s a lonely road sometimes-even perilous–as was the case at BB (not “Wizard of Oz” scary: “lions, & tigers, & bears! Oh, my” :blackeye: --but, it sure felt like it at the time.

The difference between us is that you describe yourself as “disaffected”. I am not. Seriously. I am perfectly content to live the rest of my little life out in my little neck of the woods in the local body of Christ here doing the very little things that I do to hopefully advance the kingdom of God.

I just want to learn and understand and see the world through the eyes of other Christians. That is all.

So far I have found nothing that would lead me to conclude that the place where I am is “really bad” and that “I really need to be somewhere else”.

It is big. It is just so strange to realize that in all the years I spent in the Baptist Church, I never really noticed this connection between Communion and eternal life. Indoctrination can lead to a bad case of “tunnel vision.” I think the cure may take some time, at least in my case.

You are of course assuming now that John 6 relates to communion.

As I’m thinking about this; :idea: it does occur to me that one of the most explicit revelations of the identity and nature of Christ occurs only in the Gospel of John:

John 1 (ESV): 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

No other Gospel says, “the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

So, I’m thinking we may not be able to judge the importance of a Biblical truth by the number of times it occurs in Scripture. Plus, the Gospel of Christ is revealed throughout the New Testament, collectively.

True. That is if you have decided that reading John 6 in isolation by itself is sufficient to decide that it does indeed relate to communion.

But if you are like me and want corroborating evidence before you draw this conclusion, one thing you look for is a repetition of this teaching.

As I said before, Communion and eternal life were never connected in the teachings of the Baptist Church. So this doctrine is foreign to me also; but since Christ Himself makes the connection, I figure I’d better listen.

Again, that is assuming that “eat his flesh” and “drink his blood” does relate to communion.

I do agree with the personal experience factor. I had a very profound experience with the passage in Matthew, Chapter 16, regarding “binding” and “loosing.” For Catholics, this passage refers to the authority of the Catholic Church as the Keys are handed down through Apostolic Succession (Catholics, please correct me if I am wrong.)

Matthew 16: 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Yet, this verse played a serious role in my healing from cancer. I have posted my story several times on the forums. If you or anyone else is interested in reading it, this is the Post-click blue arrow:

I tried to link to it and got nowhere.

I am a prostate cancer survivor myself.

 

[AmateurPianist]

The video is 90 mins and that put me off too but i started watching it and it was awesome. At the very least you should download the transcript which is achieveable even with a slow internet connection. Do it - i promise you will not regret it!

I can’t watch it. I did read what I think is the transcript and tried to read the Scott Hahn thing.

I am trying to get my head around what exactly you mean the mass as a sacrifice. I had a post a while back where I asked some questions on this.

 

[Anna_Scott]

**This Thread has had 2,638 views; but only one Baptist commented on the question. Still hoping Baptists will respond.

Anna**

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . . .I tried to link to it and got nowhere. I am a prostate cancer survivor myself.

AmateurPianist,

“Survivor” is a good word. I hope you did not have to endure too much pain in your treatment and recovery.

Here’s the link to my experience with cancer. Hope this one works:
Post #356 on the Thread, “Protestants, how can this be possible?”

What I am about to share with you is intensely personal. . . . .

I don’t want to derail the topic. I was just thinking about it, when you mentioned personal experience in our interpretation discussion.

Anna

 

[ConfusedTim]

The difference between us is that you describe yourself as “disaffected”. I am not. Seriously. I am perfectly content to live the rest of my little life out in my little neck of the woods in the local body of Christ here doing the very little things that I do to hopefully advance the kingdom of God.

I just want to learn and understand and see the world through the eyes of other Christians. That is all.

So far I have found nothing that would lead me to conclude that the place where I am is “really bad” and that “I really need to be somewhere else”.

You are of course assuming now that John 6 relates to communion.

True. That is if you have decided that reading John 6 in isolation by itself is sufficient to decide that it does indeed relate to communion.

But if you are like me and want corroborating evidence before you draw this conclusion, one thing you look for is a repetition of this teaching.

Again, that is assuming that “eat his flesh” and “drink his blood” does relate to communion.

I tried to link to it and got nowhere.

.

The reason why we must seek the “truth” is that every little piece of it we means that we know God a little better and thus become closer to him. To know him is to love him.

 

[KathleenGee]

In the Catholic understanding of the bible, we must believe it in its entirety, not in bits and pieces taken out of context…our early church fathers contributed to the building of the universal faith, but many of their comments were partial comments…and the understanding comes with sacred Tradition.

It was the laity, not the early church fathers, who brought about devotion to Mary.

The sacraments are ordinary elements of life, but contain the visible and active presence of Christ, the same Divine Person of 2,000 years ago. Serious character flaws of some priests do not affect the presence of Christ in the sacraments.

A sacrament of ordinary elements breaks open and makes access for us entrance into the sacred mysteries of God. We enter into the Holiest of Holies at our altar. The Mass is a sacred mystery that is the fulfillment of ancient and daily sacrifices.

Liturgy is a great component of our faith that is a discipline in itself. There is Tradition – how we understand and interpret the Truth of God in Jesus Christ and the Word of God, both intertwined, Morality found in the universal catechism, Canon Law - admininstration of the internal workings of the Church, and Liturgy, which has its own congregation. I studied pastoral theology for a number of years and my last and most favorite and fascinating classes were on the LIturgy.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Hold on to 1 Thessalonians 5:21. I have quoted it a number of times in my posts. We seem to be on similar journeys, AP. It’s nice to have some company. It’s a lonely road sometimes-even perilous–as was the case at BB (not “Wizard of Oz” scary: “lions, & tigers, & bears! Oh, my” :blackeye: --but, it sure felt like it at the time.

The difference between us is that you describe yourself as “disaffected”. I am not. Seriously. I am perfectly content to live the rest of my little life out in my little neck of the woods in the local body of Christ here doing the very little things that I do to hopefully advance the kingdom of God.

I just want to learn and understand and see the world through the eyes of other Christians. That is all.

So far I have found nothing that would lead me to conclude that the place where I am is “really bad” and that “I really need to be somewhere else”. . . .

AmateurPianist,

I’m sorry for making the assumption that we are on “similar journeys.” That really wasn’t fair to you. I am very happy that you are content in your “neck of the woods.”

I suppose my assumption is an indication of just how lonely my journey has been. My Catholic brothers and sisters wonder why I can’t quite make that leap into Catholicism–and I know that is out of love; and I love them for it. Some of my Protestant brothers and sisters accuse me of not being a Protestant, or sounding more Catholic than Protestant–it seems I’m not Protestant enough. The “trial by fire” at BB did hurt me deeply. I’m still trying to come to terms with all the terrible things they said to me and about me. I do want everyone to know that not all Baptists are like that. Many are caring Christians, fighting the good fight and demonstrating the love of Christ. My sister is one of those Baptists; and you will not find a more humble or a more loving Christian than she.

For some reason I am really emotional this morning, even to the point of fighting tears. I want so badly to please our Lord; I want to live a life pleasing to him. Yet, I seem to have failed miserably at every turn. Even so, I am starting to see the light ahead. I did finally make that formal break from the Baptist Church. That was liberating.

As I said earlier, I visited the Episcopal Church last Sunday. It was so good to be in the house of the Lord again. They have a Thursday service, which I am going to attend today. So, I do think my days as a “disenchanted Protestant” are coming to an end. I’ve been studying the beliefs of the Episcopal Church; and I think I may have found my place.

I’m sorry for rambling. Guess I just needed to talk a bit.

God bless you, AP.

Anna

 

[SteveVH]

AmateurPianist,

I’m sorry for making the assumption that we are on “similar journeys.” That really wasn’t fair to you. I am very happy that you are content in your “neck of the woods.”

I suppose my assumption is an indication of just how lonely my journey has been. My Catholic brothers and sisters wonder why I can’t quite make that leap into Catholicism–and I know that is out of love; and I love them for it. Some of my Protestant brothers and sisters accuse me of not being a Protestant, or sounding more Catholic than Protestant–it seems I’m not Protestant enough. The “trial by fire” at BB did hurt me deeply. I’m still trying to come to terms with all the terrible things they said to me and about me. I do want everyone to know that not all Baptists are like that. Many are caring Christians, fighting the good fight and demonstrating the love of Christ. My sister is one of those Baptists; and you will not find a more humble or a more loving Christian than she.

For some reason I am really emotional this morning, even to the point of fighting tears. I want so badly to please our Lord; I want to live a life pleasing to him. Yet, I seem to have failed miserably at every turn. Even so, I am starting to see the light ahead. I did finally make that formal break from the Baptist Church. That was liberating.

As I said earlier, I visited the Episcopal Church last Sunday. It was so good to be in the house of the Lord again. They have a Thursday service, which I am going to attend today. So, I do think my days as a “disenchanted Protestant” are coming to an end. I’ve been studying the beliefs of the Episcopal Church; and I think I may have found my place.

I’m sorry for rambling. Guess I just needed to talk a bit.

God bless you, AP.

Anna

Anna, I think the fact that you are honeslty searching does please God. I pray that you will find your home. Wherever you end up, they will be the better for it.

God bless.

 

[jmcrae]

Anna, I think the fact that you are honeslty searching does please God. I pray that you will find your home. Wherever you end up, they will be the better for it.

God bless.

I agree completely.

 

[benidict]

AmateurPianist,

I’m sorry for making the assumption that we are on “similar journeys.” That really wasn’t fair to you. I am very happy that you are content in your “neck of the woods.”

I suppose my assumption is an indication of just how lonely my journey has been. My Catholic brothers and sisters wonder why I can’t quite make that leap into Catholicism–and I know that is out of love; and I love them for it. Some of my Protestant brothers and sisters accuse me of not being a Protestant, or sounding more Catholic than Protestant–it seems I’m not Protestant enough. The “trial by fire” at BB did hurt me deeply. I’m still trying to come to terms with all the terrible things they said to me and about me. I do want everyone to know that not all Baptists are like that. Many are caring Christians, fighting the good fight and demonstrating the love of Christ. My sister is one of those Baptists; and you will not find a more humble or a more loving Christian than she.

For some reason I am really emotional this morning, even to the point of fighting tears. I want so badly to please our Lord; I want to live a life pleasing to him. Yet, I seem to have failed miserably at every turn. Even so, I am starting to see the light ahead. I did finally make that formal break from the Baptist Church. That was liberating.

As I said earlier, I visited the Episcopal Church last Sunday. It was so good to be in the house of the Lord again. They have a Thursday service, which I am going to attend today. So, I do think my days as a “disenchanted Protestant” are coming to an end. I’ve been studying the beliefs of the Episcopal Church; and I think I may have found my place.

I’m sorry for rambling. Guess I just needed to talk a bit.

God bless you, AP.

Anna

hi anna. with the patience you show people the knowlege you have and the grace in which you treat people here, i would dare say you are the closest one on this thread we DO have to a saint enjoy your journey. even if you never join the Catholic Church, i have no doubt you are serving the Lord wherever he puts you. its kinda like this Jewish woman, who goes out every sunday, in indianapolis indiana and feeds the homeless where they are… anyone want to condemn her, because shes not a Christian in name, but does the works of Christ? hmm. things like that get me thinking. peace