Baptists vs. Catholicism

[Epistemes]

Is there a website, or could someone please summarize some of the core areas where Baptists differ from Catholics in terms of theology, Christology, and the Bible? I am going to be among a small group teaching an RCIC (Rite of Christian Initiation for Children) and the parents will be attending with the children. The father of one of the boys is a Baptist, and while he’s not opposed to letting his son become Catholic, he himself seems to pretty staunch to remain Baptist. I would like to know what Baptists believe so that I might use “sleight of hand” in my presentations to show the boys plus this father why Catholicism is different and true.

Thanks.

 

[Church_Militant]

This might help if they are mainstream Southern Baptist.
The Baptist Faith & Message

 

[PhilVaz]

epist << I would like to know what Baptists believe so that I might use “sleight of hand” in my presentations to show the boys plus this father why Catholicism is different and true. >>

You probably want to look up a standard "baptist confession of faith" (there are several of these) to get the technical theology down, but in short off the top of my head, the main differences are:

Baptists believe in

(1) Scripture alone (66 books, 39 OT, 27 NT) as authority for all doctrine and practice, and the freedom of the individual to interpret it

(2) salvation or justification is by faith alone, although good works “will follow” if the believer is sincere and has “true faith”

(3) adult or believer’s baptism as a sign or symbol of having faith (baptism itself does not save you or do anything but get you wet)

(4) symbolic Lord’s Supper or communion of bread (or crackers) and grape juice (most do not use wine) celebrated irregularly (normally not weekly I understand in most baptist churches)

(5) they have no sacraments, but only the above two “ordinances” done in obedience to Christ’s command, they are not necessary for salvation

(6) many of them believe in “once saved, always saved” or “eternal security” or “perseverance of the saints” (a person once truly saved, cannot fall away from salvation)

(7) a few of them are fully Reformed (all five points of Calvinism) and are called "Reformed Baptists" (Calvin himself accepted infant baptism, Reformed Baptists do not)

(8) a few of them worship on the seventh-day sabbath and are called "Seventh-day Baptists"

(9) many of them are independent churches, the “highest authority” is their own pastor, and the congregation “elects” their own pastor

(10) others belong to larger denomination groups such as the "Southern Baptist Convention"

(11) the three original doctrinal variations are

(a) “Free and General Baptists” e.g.
----American Baptist Association
----Free Will Baptist Church
----General Association of General Baptists
----General Conference of the Evangelical Baptist Church, Inc.
----General Six-Principle Baptists
----National Association of Free Will Baptists

(b) “Strict and Particular Baptists” e.g.
----American Baptist Churches
----Association of Grace Baptist Churches
----Association of Regular Baptist Churches
----Baptist Bible Fellowship International
----Baptist General Conference
----Continental Baptist Churches
----Grace Baptist Assembly
----National Primitive Baptist Convention of the U.S.A.
----North American Baptist Conference
----Southern Baptist Convention

(c) “Seventh-day Baptists”

For the most part, all of these would accept the Apostles or Nicene Creed, so we have the same God (Trinity, one God in Three Divine Persons) and Jesus Christ (God and man in one Divine Person), with his atonement and death, bodily resurrection, and ascension into heaven.

Phil P

 

[FightingFat]

I have always found that rather than looking for divisions, it is better to focus on what we share (which is quite a lot). I also think that you can fairly easily demonstrate that Catholicism has everything that Baptists have, and a load of stuff they are missing!

 

[Pastor_Jim]

epist << I would like to know what Baptists believe so that I might use “sleight of hand” in my presentations to show the boys plus this father why Catholicism is different and true. >>

You probably want to look up a standard "baptist confession of faith" (there are several of these) to get the technical theology down, but in short off the top of my head, the main differences are:

Baptists believe in

(1) Scripture alone (66 books, 39 OT, 27 NT) as authority for all doctrine and practice, and the freedom of the individual to interpret it

(2) salvation or justification is by faith alone, although good works “will follow” if the believer is sincere and has “true faith”

(3) adult or believer’s baptism as a sign or symbol of having faith (baptism itself does not save you or do anything but get you wet)

(4) symbolic Lord’s Supper or communion of bread (or crackers) and grape juice (most do not use wine) celebrated irregularly (normally not weekly I understand in most baptist churches)

(5) they have no sacraments, but only the above two “ordinances” done in obedience to Christ’s command, they are not necessary for salvation

(6) many of them believe in “once saved, always saved” or “eternal security” or “perseverance of the saints” (a person once truly saved, cannot fall away from salvation)

(7) a few of them are fully Reformed (all five points of Calvinism) and are called "Reformed Baptists" (Calvin himself accepted infant baptism, Reformed Baptists do not)

(8) a few of them worship on the seventh-day sabbath and are called "Seventh-day Baptists"

(9) many of them are independent churches, the “highest authority” is their own pastor, and the congregation “elects” their own pastor

(10) others belong to larger denomination groups such as the "Southern Baptist Convention"

(11) the three original doctrinal variations are

(a) “Free and General Baptists” e.g.
----American Baptist Association
----Free Will Baptist Church
----General Association of General Baptists
----General Conference of the Evangelical Baptist Church, Inc.
----General Six-Principle Baptists
----National Association of Free Will Baptists

(b) “Strict and Particular Baptists” e.g.
----American Baptist Churches
----Association of Grace Baptist Churches
----Association of Regular Baptist Churches
----Baptist Bible Fellowship International
----Baptist General Conference
----Continental Baptist Churches
----Grace Baptist Assembly
----National Primitive Baptist Convention of the U.S.A.
----North American Baptist Conference
----Southern Baptist Convention

(c) “Seventh-day Baptists”

For the most part, all of these would accept the Apostles or Nicene Creed, so we have the same God (Trinity, one God in Three Divine Persons) and Jesus Christ (God and man in one Divine Person), with his atonement and death, bodily resurrection, and ascension into heaven.

Phil P

I agree with that for the most part.

A few other things you might want to note is that, while we believe in the authority of the church, we do not believe that church leadership is infallible (if it were, then there wouldn’t be so many examples of churches being rebuked in scripture).

We don’t believe in praying to the dead, purgatory, “veneration” of Mary or that she was sinless,

We are credobaptists, not paedobaptists, obviously.

The most important distinction is that Catholics believe in infused righteousness, while Baptists believe in imputed righteousness.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

I have always found that rather than looking for divisions, it is better to focus on what we share (which is quite a lot). I also think that you can fairly easily demonstrate that Catholicism has everything that Baptists have, and a load of stuff they are missing!

But Baptists already know what they’re “missing”. They’re missing them for a reason: they don’t want them.

If Baptists wanted those things, they would have remained Catholic.

 

[BRB]

Catholics believe in infused righteousness, while Baptists believe in imputed righteousness.

Jim …

Is ‘infused’ wrong, or not Biblical ?

 

[BRB]

They’re missing them for a reason: they don’t want them.

If Baptists wanted those things, they would have remained Catholic.

This suggests many Baptists started out as Catholic and converted. I don’t think you meant to imply that this is the usual background of your flock.

 

[FightingFat]

But Baptists already know what they’re “missing”. They’re missing them for a reason: they don’t want them.

If Baptists wanted those things, they would have remained Catholic.

Remained Catholic?

It cuts both ways ya know Pastor Jim. Anyway I disagree, I think they don’t know what they’re missing, they might think they do, because some Baptist has told them it is periferal to the Bible, but if they investigated it they would find it is not.

A friend sent me a Berean radio link the other day where a Baptist doctor come to understand what the Catholic Church teaches about faith and works just through study of the Scripture- massively powerful stuff. The lady doctor in question was stressing she disgareed with Catholic doctrine when it was plainly evident she had no idea what the Catholic doctrine was-- she was preaching it herself!!!

 

[Pastor_Jim]

This suggests many Baptists started out as Catholic and converted. I don’t think you meant to imply that this is the usual background of your flock.

Some individuals did, but surely you must be familiar with the Reformation?

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Remained Catholic?

Yes, you know, chosen not to remain a part of the Catholic church?

It cuts both ways ya know Pastor Jim.

I don’t think the Catholic church was ever a part of the Baptist church.

Anyway I disagree, I think they don’t know what they’re missing, they might think they do, because some Baptist has told them it is periferal to the Bible, but if they investigated it they would find it is not.

I disagree. This is a very common and very condescending argument by Catholics. It’s also very much untrue.

Contrary to popular Catholic belief, many non-Catholics do know what Catholicism teaches and simply choose to reject it based on what they’ve found the Bible to say.

It doesn’t mean that they don’t know what Catholicism teaches. It just means that they disagree with Catholicism’s take on Christianity.

A friend sent me a Berean radio link the other day where a Baptist doctor come to understand what the Catholic Church teaches about faith and works just through study of the Scripture- massively powerful stuff. The lady doctor in question was stressing she disgareed with Catholic doctrine when it was plainly evident she had no idea what the Catholic doctrine was-- she was preaching it herself!!!

Then that’s her fault. That she doesn’t know what it teaches (assuming you’re telling the truth about that) doesn’t mean that no non-Catholic knows what it teaches.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Jim …

Is ‘infused’ wrong, or not Biblical ?

I don’t see any Biblical support for it.

 

[FightingFat]

Some individuals did, but surely you must be familiar with the Reformation?

Wasn’t that that thing were a load of people decided that what God had set up and said that the Hell would never prevail over was a load of rubbish and so started up their own version of it? Come to think of it, isn’t that what’s been going on ever since Luther nailed his 95 theses to the castle church door at Wittenberg in 1546?

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Wasn’t that that thing were a load of people decided that what God had set up and said that the Hell would never prevail over was a load of rubbish and so started up their own version of it?

No, that was the thing where a load of people saw that the church that they cherished had become corrupt and heretical and left in order to gather like minded believers together to get back to following BIblical teaching and reform the church.

It’s a fair point, although I would love to meet a Protestant who knew what the Church actually taught. It has yet to happen!

Then perhaps you’re hanging out with the wrong Protestants and Baptists. I know many who are familiar with Catholic teaching, including many former Catholics.

I think we all have to approach faith in God with a dose of humility

I agree. A good way to start to show that humility is to approach non-Catholic Christians with humility and stop telling them that they don’t know what they’re talking about.

And they achieved this by throwing out the eucharist, reconciliation and a load of other stuff and arguing a lot about salvation and justification?

Are you familiar with the Reformation?

The Bible thing cracks me up totally. You don’t even have all the books!

Who says?

How can you think the Bible is everything Jesus taught? That it sums up Christianity?

I don’t believe that it is everything Jesus taught, but I do believe that it is representative of everything Jesus taught and I do believe that it is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

What about people like Athanasius? The Capadocians? St. Augustine? Was he a heretic? Do these people hold any position in your view of Christian history?

Yes, they were fallible men who had opinions that were sometimes Bibical and sometimes not.

 

[FightingFat]

It doesn’t mean that they don’t know what Catholicism teaches. It just means that they disagree with Catholicism’s take on Christianity.

It’s a fair point, although I would love to meet a Protestant who knew what the Church actually taught. It has yet to happen! I think we all have to approach faith in God with a dose of humility and part of my faith is struggling with things I don’t understand. In general I find that if I don’t understand something it is because I have not seen it in continuity and harmony with the whole of the faith.

 

[FightingFat]

No, that was the thing where a load of people saw that the church that they cherished had become corrupt and heretical and left in order to gather like minded believers together to get back to following BIblical teaching and reform the church.

And they achieved this by throwing out the eucharist, reconciliation and a load of other stuff and arguing a lot about salvation and justification?

The Bible thing cracks me up totally. You don’t even have all the books!

How can you think the Bible is everything Jesus taught? That it sums up Christianity?

What about people like Athanasius? The Capadocians? St. Augustine? Was he a heretic? Do these people hold any position in your view of Christian history?

 

[BRB]

I know many who are familiar with Catholic teaching, including many former Catholics.

.

Jim…

Do these former Catholics tell you why they are leaving to become Protestant ?

Share some of their reasons with us if you might.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Jim…

Do these former Catholics tell you why they are leaving to become Protestant ?

Share some of their reasons with us if you might.

Some leave because they’ve gotten saved and want to find a church that reflects their new faith, some leave because they come to the realization that they can no longer support Catholic doctrines.

One of the men in our Thursday morning class left because he felt that the Bible was being taught through the lens of Catholic dogma, instead of the other way around.

There are as many reasons for leaving as there are individuals who have left.

To expect a cradle Protestant to fully understand Catholicism is not credible. Protestants will obviously know some of the 4-5 ‘hot topic’ dogmatic issues that clash with Protestant views. Much of it in error … sadly. But, Catholics also have some mistaken views on Protestant beliefs.

I agree. If I had a nickle for every Catholic who told me that OSAS means that you can “sin all you want to” or that we don’t respect the authority of the church, that we’re all “your own pope”, or any of a dozen of the ways they mangle sola scriptura, I’d be a very rich man.

Like birth control and abortion … perhaps much of it is moral issues the Church upholds ?

No, doctrinal issues, not moral ones (although I’m loathe to bring it up, I can see how the sex abuse scandals would drive people away.)

On most moral issues, we have very similar views so it wouldn’t make sense for them to leave a denomination because they disagree with their views on abortion, only to join another denomination or church that holds the same views.

fightingfat:

I had a great chat with a Muslim lady once. She was going to show me how wrong I was and she could do it because she’d been a Catholic for 30 odd years before converting. When we started talking it came to light that in fact she didn’t have a clue about what the Church taught!

I talk with Catholics all the time, but when they start talking about OSAS, sola scriptura, our doctrines on church authority and the priesthood of the believer, they always get it wrong.

Should I then assume that no Catholic knows anything about what we believe?

 

[FightingFat]

I had a great chat with a Muslim lady once. She was going to show me how wrong I was and she could do it because she’d been a Catholic for 30 odd years before converting. When we started talking it came to light that in fact she didn’t have a clue about what the Church taught!

 

[BRB]

I would love to meet a Protestant who knew what the Church actually taught. It has yet to happen! .

FF …

Lets be honest here. Alot of Catholics don’t even know what the Church teaches. There is alot of Church history to learn and understand. Even cradle catholics don’t understand it all. Much of the Church teaching is a mystery… and must be accepted on faith.

To expect a cradle Protestant to fully understand Catholicism is not credible. Protestants will obviously know some of the 4-5 ‘hot topic’ dogmatic issues that clash with Protestant views. Much of it in error … sadly. But, Catholics also have some mistaken views on Protestant beliefs.