Baptists vs. Catholicism

[mark_a]

Remained Catholic?

It cuts both ways ya know Pastor Jim. Anyway I disagree, I think they don’t know what they’re missing, they might think they do, because some Baptist has told them it is periferal to the Bible, but if they investigated it they would find it is not.

A friend sent me a Berean radio link the other day where a Baptist doctor come to understand what the Catholic Church teaches about faith and works just through study of the Scripture- massively powerful stuff. The lady doctor in question was stressing she disgareed with Catholic doctrine when it was plainly evident she had no idea what the Catholic doctrine was-- she was preaching it herself!!!

I have found that the amount of disinformation and misinformation about Catholic teaching eminating from Baptist pulpits to be mind boggling.

Folks who believe Baptist theology and have no interest in Catholic theology have my respect, but liars don’t.

 

[mtr01]

Actually, I did. I showed from scripture where it said that Abraham was saved because of his faith, not his works. The Catholic poster I was responding to even conceded that this is tha case.

I find the whole ‘Abraham having his faith “reckoned to him as righteousness” argument’ for imputed righteousness/sola fide extremely weak. Let’s take a look at some relevant verses:

5: And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6: And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

However, something similar happened to Phineas:

30: Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed. 31: And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore.

Except it wasn’t his faith that was reckoned to him as righteousness, but (go figure) a work.

 

[trrocks03]

One major difference between Baptists and Catholics that I have seen is that Baptists will only use a protestant bible to try to explain their points, whereas the Catholics will use a protestant bibleas well (to make it “legit” to the protestant) to easily dispute those points. I never see protestants using a Catholic bible to try and explain things…

I’ve never seen a protestant explain 1 & 2 Macc and the connection to purgatory. They just claim “its not an inspired book because its not in my bible…(which came directly from heaven on a cloud of pixie dust)” Maybe that will happen someday

 

[peary]

I’ve never seen a protestant explain 1 & 2 Macc and the connection to purgatory. They just claim “its not an inspired book because its not in my bible…(which came directly from heaven on a cloud of pixie dust)” Maybe that will happen someday

**Best Baptist line said to me: “If the King James was good enough for St. Paul, then it’s good enough for me!” **

 

[FightingFat]

I’ve never seen a protestant explain 1 & 2 Macc and the connection to purgatory. They just claim “its not an inspired book because its not in my bible…(which came directly from heaven on a cloud of pixie dust)” Maybe that will happen someday

The whole Wisdom literature thing-- it’s amazing, I’ve had conversation with people who have no idea of how this all feeds into Christianity–
The Book of Wisdom has many important lessons for us today; it attempts to address the dynamic interaction between human reason and divine revelation to enable the religious understanding of young Jews in the bright metropolis that was Alexandria to keep pace with intellectual development of the time. The author needed to confront public opinion which considered traditional Judaism overly moralistic, unsophisticated and primitive. It was written for Jewish students and intellectuals who were abandoning their faith as they embraced Hellenistic philosophy and religion.

The Book of Wisdom stands in contrast to Job and Qoheleth in that it has little or no interest in the suffering of the innocent or the meaning of life, choosing instead to concern itself with an affirmation of the value of living a life faithful to YHWH despite the hardships of living in a pagan land. It asserts the foolishness of pagan idolatry and the superiority of Jewish Law, using the great events of the Old Testament as object lessons of various philosophical approaches to wisdom. For example Wisdom 7:22-30 lists wisdom’s physical attributes in an attempt to utilise deep philosophical terms, but it seems to go too far, making wisdom so abstract, it could be said to clash with Israel’s tradition of wisdom as practical and concrete!

The Book of Wisdom is distinct from previous wisdom writings of Israel as it attempts to integrate and find some common ground between Hellenistic philosophical ideas and a biblical understanding of wisdom. In an attempt to demonstrate the superiority of Jewish thought, it introduces two new ideas: salvation history as a lesson for learning wisdom, and immortality as an explanation of how God rewards the sufferings of the just. Indeed, it is more preoccupied with this issue than any other text of the Old Testament. The author of Wisdom develops a conviction that the existence of this world is merely preparation for eternity through reading Sacred Scripture with a mind that appreciated the legitimate insights of Hellenistic reflection. A specific example of this could be found especially in the author of Wisdom’s discernment of a universal truth underlying Ezekiel’s prophecy (Ez 18:32; 33:11) “God did not make death” (Wisdom 1:13). This allows for a whole new tack with respect to the question of how a God of justice can allow his righteous to suffer at the hands of the godless who enjoy prosperity and comfort. Earthly evaluations now become obsolete because they fail to take into account God’s eternal Kingdom. The judgement of God will reverse any unjust state of affairs and the godless will have to witness the vindication of the righteous even as they disintegrate into the void of eternal death (2:21-24; 3:10-12; 4:20-5:14; 5:17-23). This insight is complimentary to the tradition of Daniel and 2 Maccabees as it asserts that life after death will be the reward for the righteous individual, but the book of Wisdom also incorporates a Hellenistic dimension into the biblical tradition: it describes the afterlife as immortality of the soul rather than resurrection from the dead. How massively important is all that! No wonder they are confused about these things!

 

[Sean_Boyle]

It seems that Baptists fear Catholicism because of what they are taught falsely regarding Catholicism in some cases from the pulpit to insite fear and hatred at least that was the original intent.

Catholics that are old enough to remember, saw the Baptist faith as being one of the leading common denominators in the bigotry behind hate groups like the Klan. That’s the case in my state at least.

It became for Catholics, they hate me and want to harm me because of my faith, then I need to stear clear of them and their idology. That self peservation factor still comes through today.

Baptists’ still seem hell bent on saving those poor stupid Catholics from the errors of the Catholic Faith and man made traditions of the Catholic Faith. That notion is still something to fear. They are not nice about it, usually. Not charitible. It’s still scary.

I am amazed the while talking to Baptist today,even the younger ones, while talking about the importance of Christ in your life, Baptists are fully involved in the conversation. When their interests are peaked because a Catholic speaks as a person of faith, they ultimatly ask what church you go too.

When you tell them a Catholic Church, the conversation stops instantly, and they go somewhere else like someone yelled “fire”. Your never quite sure that things will end well for you in those instances.

This has happened several times in the last year or two to me.

 

[FightingFat]

Also-- why did they embrace that Canon of Scripture? Because Luther went back to the Canon accepted by the Council of Jamnia years and years and years after the Septuagint was written. Jamnia only happened because of Christian pressure, it’s no wonder the Jews left out the book they did!

The Greek translation was used because of the Hellenisation of the world, why would you want to be revisionist and re-write history? It’s all about agenda and not accepting the truth, instead making up your own version of it!

Also, the whole Reformation thing always makes me think – it was the way it was up to then, warts and all. But to think that you can change it, that it hadn’t turned out the way God had wanted it to, that God had somehow got it wrong and He meant things to be different; its a very human perspective isn’t it? Re-writing God in man’s image instead of the other way round?

Faith is about humility before Revelation. Now we could learn much from Protestant criticism about this, I have no doubt, but should we all, as Christians, have some humility before God’s planned as revealed in the economy of salvation?

The Church was Catholic up until the Reformation. Much had gone into the understanding of the Sacraments, of the doctrine etc. Wouldn’t we all be happier with the unity Jesus prayed for in His priestly prayer?

 

[allhers]

**Best Baptist line said to me: “If the King James was good enough for St. Paul, then it’s good enough for me!” **

 

[sarak]

I think the main difference between Baptists and Catholics is that Baptists think they know everything about how to be a good Christian and everyone else (including Catholics) will go to hell. This is an unfortunate viewpoint which I saw firsthand as I grew up Baptist. Baptists don’t even recognize Catholics as Christians, which is ridiculous! They even think that Catholics pray to Mary instead of Jesus. My own father would not believe otherwise, even when I explained to him that Baptists are derived from Catholics and Catholics only hope to have the holy mother intercede for them.
In summation, the main difference is ignorance to Christian history and blind trust in whatever their Pastor/Minister/Sunday School teacher tells them.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Originally Posted by Psalm 106 (KJV)
30: Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed. 31: And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore.

How interesting… Not to mention that James already exegetes the story of Abraham to avoid any confusion among those who read Paul’s letter to the Romans and believe faith excludes works:

James 2:19-26 (KJV) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?** Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?** Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also** was not Rahab the harlot justified by works**, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so** faith without works is dead also**.So with your verse on Phinehas, we have Phinehas, Abraham, and Rahab all specifically said to have been justified by works and not by faith alone. At least that’s what Scripture tells us…

 

[pnewton]

I think the main difference between Baptists and Catholics is that Baptists think they know everything about how to be a good Christian and everyone else (including Catholics) will go to hell.

Most Baptists do not believe everyone else will go to hell, and some Catholics do believe that everyone but Catholics will go to hell. This is actually something both groups have in common.

 

[trrocks03]

How interesting… Not to mention that James already exegetes the story of Abraham to avoid any confusion among those who read Paul’s letter to the Romans and believe faith excludes works:

James 2:19-26 (KJV) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?** Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?** Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also** was not Rahab the harlot justified by works**, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so** faith without works is dead also**.So with your verse on Phinehas, we have Phinehas, Abraham, and Rahab all specifically said to have been justified by works and not by faith alone. At least that’s what Scripture tells us…

Since none of the protestants are answering, I shall take a crack at this one:

Well w22-33 says that Abraham was saved by faith alone. Therefore you are not reading the bible correctly.

The bible says otherwise.

Really? I’d rather believe what my bible says over what you say.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Since none of the protestants are answering, I shall take a crack at this one:

Well w22-33 says that Abraham was saved by faith alone. Therefore you are not reading the bible correctly.

The bible says otherwise.

Really? I’d rather believe what my bible says over what you say.

You are role playing very well.

http://www.pclincs.co.uk

 

[allhers]

We could at least tell them how happy we are that they like our Bible.

 

[TobyLue]

Most Baptists do not believe everyone else will go to hell, and some Catholics do believe that everyone but Catholics will go to hell. This is actually something both groups have in common.

But this is not what the CCC teaches, so we cant go by what a few ignorant Catholics say. However, many Protestants minister DO teach/preach in their churchs (and of course that minister is his own magisterium/pope or pope-ete if a female minister) that all Catholics are hell bound.

 

[MrS]

We could at least tell them how happy we are that they like our Bible.

…they like most of our Bible.

 

[pnewton]

But this is not what the CCC teaches, so we cant go by what a few ignorant Catholics say. However, many Protestants minister DO teach/preach in their churchs (and of course that minister is his own magisterium/pope or pope-ete if a female minister) that all Catholics are hell bound.

And likewise, it is not what the Baptist Faith and Message says and, as you point out, you can’t go by what a few ingnorant ones say. But Baptist as a rule do not believe all others are hell-bound.

 

[peary]

Most Baptists do not believe everyone else will go to hell, and some Catholics do believe that everyone but Catholics will go to hell. This is actually something both groups have in common.

I’ve talked with many many Baptists over the years. It appears as though the southern Baptists seem to have the greatest Catholic ‘problem’. While they usually say that they don’t have an issue with Catholics going to heaven, we are still idolaters and the bible is clear that idolaters are not worthy of heaven.

 

[pnewton]

I’ve talked with many many Baptists over the years. It appears as though the southern Baptists seem to have the greatest Catholic ‘problem’. While they usually say that they don’t have an issue with Catholics going to heaven, we are still idolaters and the bible is clear that idolaters are not worthy of heaven.

I have heard that, but I would have to include liars, gossips, etc. Still, the point is that it is not part of Baptist doctrine. What you have described closely resembles what could be said about Catholics, BTW.

I, too, know of what I speak. I was SBC for 35 years, a pastor of a Church and an ordained SBC minister. I attended an SBC college and seminary. I may be out of date, but I still remember most of what I was taught.

 

[BRB]

I

I, too, know of what I speak. I was SBC for 35 years, a pastor of a Church and an ordained SBC minister. I attended an SBC college and seminary. .

Amazing, that after 35 years you converted. What was key for you? Reading early church history, loss of morals in your church, catholic friends, etc. ??