Baptists vs. Catholicism

[GeorgiaPeach]

Pastor Jim, you continue to ignore scripture that people post which doesn’t fix your argument.

John 11:25-26
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die.”

Do you believe this?

Please answer.

Thanks!

 

[SD_Catholic]

Pastor Jim, you continue to ignore scripture that people post which doesn’t fix your argument.

Originally Posted by trrocks03

He can’t honestly answer this for the same reason he won’t answer my question… in order to admit that those souls with God in heaven have eternal life he would have to admit that Catholics are praying with those that are alive rather than dead, and that would just take away one of his favorite arguments against us Catholics… “Catholics pray to the dead”

That’s OK Jim we understand that you’ve put yourself into a tight corner… by not answering certain questions you pretty much… well… answer our questions

SD

 

[rtconstant]

And yet, when I asked you who these people were, you were unable to give any examples.

Yes I did.

Actually, my first grad degree was in history and I taught history at both the high school and colegiate levels.

So then your ignorance was truly feigned?

And, surely, you can show evidence that these two Baptist groups are “anti-intellectual”?

Pastors were not allowed to have college degrees. In one case not having complete high school was seen as a plus.

And your evidence that this was done by Baptists or that they were based on “anti-intellectualism”…?

Well they called themselves Baptists. They adherred to Baptist Distinctives. Actually, as I’m typing this I’m reminded of the Landmark Baptist movement which could be seen as anti-intellectual.

I’m also doubting that you are unaware of these groups. My parents when they got older and joined the SBC were embarassed by this mentality. It isn’t like its a secret or anything.

Actually, Servetus was killed because of his heresy, not because of “anti-intellectualism”.

And you’re basing your claim that this was an exercise in “anti-intellectualism” on what, exactly?

LOL, you know I almost asked if you were going to try and come at it from that angle. I gave you the benefit of the doubt though. So I figured I’d combine it with the request for a source on persecutions in general. You seemed uninterested in that though. So lets make this easy why don’t you provide an example of the Catholic anti-intellectualism and we’ll move from there.

A “fact” that you have so far been unable to show any evidence for.

Yes I did. You seem to have selective observation skills though.

So you’re saying you’ve never head the tendancy in Baptist Churches to speak of Faith in terms of emotions, experience and encounters? You’ve never heard the ol’ “What’s the distance between God and man? Fifteen inches the distance between your heart and your brain.”? These sorts of concepts are at the root of anti-intellectuallism, and some just take it further. Doctrine is to be studied not felt.

Voddie Baucham seemed to think anti-Intellectualism was a big enough issue that he brought it up in speech at the 2005 Southern Baptist of Texas Convention (which is interesting since by and large I find the SBC to be amongst the more intellectual of the conservative Baptist groups)

Mohler, mentioned anti-intellectualism in his Evangelical Manifesto.

Anti-Intellectualism is not a symptom of Baptist theology in general but where Fundamentalism is anti-Intellectualism has a tendency to follow. This isn’t exclusive to Baptists by any means, it is more of a product of Fundamentalism which does have a presence in the Baptist world (though it is shrinking).

There is a good book on this called the Scandal of the Evangelical Mind by Mark A. Noll.

I disagree. They have died. Therefore, they are dead. So, in addition to sinning by praying to those other than God, you are sinning by violating God’s condemnation of praying to the dead.

Ah, excellent the target has stopped. So you think Heaven is empty then? Outside of God and angels no one is there?

Actually, my answers were not contradictory at all and were not incomplete.

That might be true. That depends on how you answer the above question.

So then, you believe that no one in Heaven died?

So then you believe no one is in Heaven?

 

[Josh316]

Josh, here’s a challenge for you: instead of just repeating “you misinterpreted” over and over, why don’t you take a minute and go over the verses that I cited and explain how I misinterpreted them and what the correct interpretation is?

You want to know why I don’t give you my interpretation of bible versus? Because it would only lead to you saying “no you misinterpret” “or I’m afraid I don’t agree with you” or one of the several times you’ve said one of your one-liners, so what is the use of going in circles. As I argue bible verses with my brother constantly (he’s Baptist) and interpretation after interpretation get thrown at one another I believe it is better to study the bible as a whole and not verse by verse study. I would like to know something Jim, if you’re Baptist and believe that Jesus didn’t drink alcohol doesn’t it stand to reason that God of the old testament ( Since He is one in being with Jesus) would forbid the consumption of alcohol? See Deuteronomy 14-26.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Yes I did.

No, you did not give any examples.

So then your ignorance was truly feigned?

Yes, just like your Christianity.

Pastors were not allowed to have college degrees.

Right. That must explain why both Landmark Baptists and Missionary Baptists have Bible colleges and seminaries: to not give people degrees.

Well they called themselves Baptists. They adherred to Baptist Distinctives. Actually, as I’m typing this I’m reminded of the Landmark Baptist movement which could be seen as anti-intellectual.

Then why do Landmark Baptists have colleges and seminaries? Why do they have some of the best homeschool materials on the market?

I’m also doubting that you are unaware of these groups.

No, I’m very much aware of them. In fact, my partner in ministry graduated from a Landmark Bible College. That’s how I know you’re not telling the truth.

LOL, you know I almost asked if you were going to try and come at it from that angle. I gave you the benefit of the doubt though. So I figured I’d combine it with the request for a source on persecutions in general. You seemed uninterested in that though. So lets make this easy why don’t you provide an example of the Catholic anti-intellectualism and we’ll move from there.

There’s no “angle” at all. You claimed that Michael Servetus was killed because of some fantastic Baptist fatwah on intellectuals. I was simply pointing out that he was not.

Yes I did. You seem to have selective observation skills though.

No, simply saying that you have shown evidence is not the same as showing evidence.

Voddie Baucham seemed to think anti-Intellectualism was a big enough issue that he brought it up in speech at the 2005 Southern Baptist of Texas Convention (which is interesting since by and large I find the SBC to be amongst the more intellectual of the conservative Baptist groups)

Source?

Mohler, mentioned anti-intellectualism in his Evangelical Manifesto.

Could you please show some source to demonstrate that the president of one of the leading seminaries in the world is an “anto-intellectual”?

Anti-Intellectualism is not a symptom of Baptist theology in general but where Fundamentalism is anti-Intellectualism has a tendency to follow.

So then why have fundamentalists been at the forefront of academia in Christianity?

This isn’t exclusive to Baptists by any means, it is more of a product of Fundamentalism which does have a presence in the Baptist world (though it is shrinking).

I disagree. I believe that Bible based Christianity is growing stronger and stronger in the Baptist world.

Ah, excellent the target has stopped. So you think Heaven is empty then? Outside of God and angels no one is there?

No, I believe that plenty of dead people have gone to Heaven.

So then you believe no one is in Heaven?

Sure, I believe that plenty of dead people are in Heaven.

georgiapeach:

Pastor Jim, you continue to ignore scripture that people post which doesn’t fix your argument.

Actually, I haven’t ignored anything. In fact, I’m the one here who’s practically begging the Catholics to back up their claims with scripture.

What is there to answer? Jesus says “even though he dies”, which plainly tells us that people do, indeed, die.

Josh:

You want to know why I don’t give you my interpretation of bible versus? Because it would only lead to you saying “no you misinterpret” “or I’m afraid I don’t agree with you” or one of the several times you’ve said one of your one-liners, so what is the use of going in circles.

I disagree. I believe it’s because you know that your argument doesn’t stand up. That’s why you have to resort to such a cheap cop-out.

I would like to know something Jim, if you’re Baptist and believe that Jesus didn’t drink alcohol doesn’t it stand to reason that God of the old testament ( Since He is one in being with Jesus) would forbid the consumption of alcohol? See Deuteronomy 14-26.

Not necessarily. Familiarize yourself with the Latin phrase “post hoc ergo proctor hoc”.

Assuming your belief that Jesus didn’t drink alcohol is true, you still haven’t demonstrated why Jesus didn’t drink alcohol.

If Jesus chose not to drink alcohol because He just didn’t care for the taste of alcohol, then that would have no bearing on the morality of drinking alcohol or necessitate that God forbade consumption of alcohol.
SDCatholic:

That’s OK Jim we understand that you’ve put yourself into a tight corner… by not answering certain questions you pretty much… well… answer our questions

Actually, I’ve answered every question you’ve thrown at me. I’m still waiting for you all to answer many of my questions.

Sorry to disappoint you but even Jesus said that people die.
jmcrea:

Either they are dead, or they are in Heaven. Both are not possible at the same time. Dead people don’t go to Heaven.

I disagree. With the exception of the rapture or those who have been assumed into Heaven (eg. Enoch, Elijah, and Jesus), one must die first before going to Heaven.

Dead people get resurrected in their souls, and then they go to Heaven, after having been judged worthy.

Actually, the Bible says that the judgement has not taken place yet.

Yes, He did, but He Himself is living proof that they don’t stay dead.

Actually, Jesus’ resurrection was not a normative event.

 

[jmcrae]

No, I believe that plenty of dead people have gone to Heaven.

Either they are dead, or they are in Heaven. Both are not possible at the same time. Dead people don’t go to Heaven. Dead people get resurrected in their souls, and then they go to Heaven, after having been judged worthy.

Sorry to disappoint you but even Jesus said that people die.

Yes, He did, but He Himself is living proof that they don’t stay dead.

 

[CentralFLJames]

And yet, when I ask you to explain what is “uncharitable” about it, you cannot say.

Well brother, would you take it as charitable if I called you a liar for making this inaccurate statement? People in every culture I have personally known or visited to would say that calling someone a liar is certainly not neutral and most definitely not-complimentary. That means its negative and therefore uncharitable. Worse, you did not even take a moment to get a clarification - you jumped right to judgement. Is this Christian behavior brother? If you say yes I would have to ask if you have a consistent and symmetrical view of charity? That is, in your system of reckoning as a pastor would you accept a bill rather than a tithe in the collection basket as fair and charitable compensation for “services rendered” from a member of the congregation?

No, for you to consistently ignore what I say and say “I see that you agree with Catholicism” is a lie.

But you did agree with the part that we were talking about brother. I was happy to find some common ground. You agreed that those in heaven are alive in Christ and with the few exceptions I pointed out one must die to get to heaven. That is not a lie. At worst its a misunderstanding. Why be so uncharitable? Just say “you misunderstood me” if that is the case.

Actually, there was no agreement. In fact, in most cases where you claimed I “agreed” with you, you did so after I just explained to you that I believe precisely the opposite of what you claim I do.

Brother I don’t know what to say to you here. You said that those in heaven are alive and not dead. Have you changed your mind?

And yet, if I were to ask you to give an example, you would be unable to.

Yes, I was born again Aug 18, 1987.

This was the day you were baptised?

No. I see nothing at all “Unchristian” about pointing out that you chose to lie about what I said.

So, then, brother, can you admit that you are judging here and if so would you say that it is Christian to judge others? What does Jesus say about judging others? Matthew 7:1 ‘Judge not least you be judged’. Judging others and not first extending the benefit of the doubt when there is ample opportunity and reason to do so is not Christian brother.

But let’s get past all this and back on the OP.

James

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Well brother, would you take it as charitable if I called you a liar for making this inaccurate statement?

An “innacurate statement”? How Clintonian.

But you did agree with the part that we were talking about brother.

No, you repeatedly took things I said and claimed that I “agreed” with precisely the opposite of what I said. I was happy to find some common ground.

This was the day you were baptised?

No, that was the day I was saved. I was baptised about a year and a half later.

So, then, brother, can you admit that you are judging here and if so would you say that it is Christian to judge others?

Yes. The Bible repeatedly tells us to judge others.

What does Jesus say about judging others? Matthew 7:1 ‘Judge not least you be judged’.

Oh, for goodness sake. Really? REALLY? Taking Matthew 7:1 so woefully out of context is the best you can do? Isn’t that just a little cliched by now?

Please read the whole passage. Jesus never tells us not to judge, but not to judge unrighteous judgements. In fact, had you bothered to read the whole chapter for yourself instead of just letting your priest tell you what it says, you would have seen that Jesus does instruct us to judge.

Judging others and not first extending the benefit of the doubt when there is ample opportunity and reason to do so is not Christian brother.

I see nothing UnChristian about not giving the benefit of the doubt to somebody who is so obviously lying about what I said.

Had it been a simple misunderstanding, yes, I would have given you the benefit of the doubt. Had it been a one or maybe even two time thing, I would have given you the benefit of the doubt.

But that was not the case. You chose to follow me around and say, after each of my posts “I’m glad to see that you agree that [insert the opposite of what I said here]”.

 

[pnewton]

This is what is commonly known as “moving the goalposts”. I never said anything about an inquisition.

You did, however, say that Baptists killed several civil rights workers as a part of “religious killings”.
.

From: mississippidays.com/murder

The hierarchy of the Ku Klux Klan was drawn exclusively from the hierarchy of the white Southern Baptist church. There were no Catholics, Jews or Jehovah’s Witnesses in the Klan. There were a few Methodists in their ranks but their Kleagles, Exalted Cyclopses, Grand Wizards, etc., were all deacons, Sunday school teachers, ministers and preachers of that violent religion. The Klan was the enforcement wing of that white Southern Baptist church

You will never see any thing official from the SBC or any organized group of Baptists. This points to one major difference between Baptists and Catholics. Anything done by Catholics are more trackable and any sin on the part of one, or a group, is reflective of the whole Church. One the other hand, the congregational style of Baptist provide a built in insulation on the part of Baptist as a group for Baptist as a demonination.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

From: mississippidays.com/murder

You will never see any thing official from the SBC or any organized group of Baptists. This points to one major difference between Baptists and Catholics. Anything done by Catholics are more trackable and any sin on the part of one, or a group, is reflective of the whole Church. One the other hand, the congregational style of Baptist provide a built in insulation on the part of Baptist as a group for Baptist as a demonination.

There’s a big difference between individuals holding membership in both a Baptist church and the Ku Klux Klan and religious murders being decreed by a Baptist denomination.

Funny how whenever somebody points out the pedophile priest epidemic, you insist that the priests don’t represent your organization but when a Baptist does something wrong, automatically, you try to tie it in as an official act of the denomination.

Nice try, though.

 

[pnewton]

There’s a big difference between individuals holding membership in both a Baptist church and the Ku Klux Klan and religious murders being decreed by a Baptist denomination.

You are totally right, and I agree. I never meant to imply a double standard. I believe in both cases the actions and sin of some do not reflect back on the beliefs. 'By your fruits you will know them" reflects back truly only on the individual, not the beliefs of that persons Church, Catholic or Baptist.

 

[Josh316]

No, you did not give any examples.

Yes, just like your Christianity.

Right. That must explain why both Landmark Baptists and Missionary Baptists have Bible colleges and seminaries: to not give people degrees.

Then why do Landmark Baptists have colleges and seminaries? Why do they have some of the best homeschool materials on the market?

No, I’m very much aware of them. In fact, my partner in ministry graduated from a Landmark Bible College. That’s how I know you’re not telling the truth.

There’s no “angle” at all. You claimed that Michael Servetus was killed because of some fantastic Baptist fatwah on intellectuals. I was simply pointing out that he was not.

No, simply saying that you have shown evidence is not the same as showing evidence.

Source?

Could you please show some source to demonstrate that the president of one of the leading seminaries in the world is an “anto-intellectual”?

So then why have fundamentalists been at the forefront of academia in Christianity?

I disagree. I believe that Bible based Christianity is growing stronger and stronger in the Baptist world.

No, I believe that plenty of dead people have gone to Heaven.

Sure, I believe that plenty of dead people are in Heaven.

Actually, I haven’t ignored anything. In fact, I’m the one here who’s practically begging the Catholics to back up their claims with scripture.

What is there to answer? Jesus says “even though he dies”, which plainly tells us that people do, indeed, die.

I disagree. I believe it’s because you know that your argument doesn’t stand up. That’s why you have to resort to such a cheap cop-out.

Not necessarily. Familiarize yourself with the Latin phrase “post hoc ergo proctor hoc”.

Assuming your belief that Jesus didn’t drink alcohol is true, you still haven’t demonstrated why Jesus didn’t drink alcohol.

If Jesus chose not to drink alcohol because He just didn’t care for the taste of alcohol, then that would have no bearing on the morality of drinking alcohol or necessitate that God forbade consumption of alcohol.

Actually, I’ve answered every question you’ve thrown at me. I’m still waiting for you all to answer many of my questions.

Sorry to disappoint you but even Jesus said that people die.

I disagree. With the exception of the rapture or those who have been assumed into Heaven (eg. Enoch, Elijah, and Jesus), one must die first before going to Heaven.

Actually, the Bible says that the judgement has not taken place yet.

Actually, Jesus’ resurrection was not a normative event.

I don’t believe you understood my post. I do believe that Jesus drank alcohol, reread my post, it is hypothetical. As far as my comment being a “cop-out”, I could think of several “proof-texts” (John 20-23, confession) All Last Supper gospels (Matt, Mark, Luke; Eurcharist) That prove Catholic teachings (read my signature) but I’ve had these arguments with my brother before and I’m sure I’ll get the same responses from you, so my point is, what’s the point. And just two other points I would like to make.

1. If you believe in Sola Scriptura and also believe that the bible does not contradict itself then explain “Call no one but me Father”, and yet "God says to “honor your father and mother”
   (Now I’m sure you think that common sense needs to be applied here, and I agree, but my point is if you believe in Sola scriptura then you have to take the bible at face-value and their is no room for personal interpretation)
2. Also you said that the judgement has “not taken place yet” well if that is true then explain how Jesus was able to tell the thief on the cross next to him "Today you will be with me in paradise (or my kingdom depending on the translation) Looks like he was judged to me.

 

[atmmgraves]

Pastor Jim, why are you here? You will not accept the answers given, your arguments are circular, you will not be converting anyone - why are you here? What is your goal here, your purpose? Since no one is going to join your side and since you will never agree with the responses you have been provided, you are here as an agitant, as a disruption, a distraction. Seems to me the you would benefit yourself and us by going to a baptist site and posting there. Indeed, doing so would be your good deed for the day - the Christian thing to do.

 

[CentralFLJames]

An “innacurate statement”? How Clintonian.

You did not answer my question brother. Would you rather I call you a liar? You are certainly consistent in your pithy judgments. Do you hate Mr. Clinton too? I am declining your invitation to bond under a banner of mutual loathing. Nice try though. Why not try something more productive and positive like a common basis for Christian belief? You do think you are Christian yes?

No, you repeatedly took things I said and claimed that I “agreed” with precisely the opposite of what I said. I was happy to find some common ground.

You seem to be having a bad day brother. Are you feeling well today? You have not given any examples of your extravagant exaggerations brother. Where is your 2nd or 3rd witness as required by Christian standards? Or is this an example of a baptist inquisition by a judge and jury of one single private interpretation?

No, that was the day I was saved. I was baptised about a year and a half later.

I see. Did someone tell you that day you were saved? If so who?

I feel obliged to tell you that the proper apostolic and biblical teaching is that one must first be baptised. That is when one receives an initial indwelling of the holy spirit and when one is reborn into Christ. But that is just the beginning. It is then our duty to cooperate with God’s grace, remain in the faith and refrain from grave sins. Good works will naturally come out of a true faith. If we sin we should repent, confess our sins each time one does sin gravely. We should also partake of the Lord’s body and blood as often as practical (minimally once per year). And we should live according to Christian principals as taught by the apostolic church and the Catholic Bible.

Yes. The Bible repeatedly tells us to judge others.

Oh does it brother? Please provide comprehensive references.

Oh, for goodness sake. Really? REALLY? Taking Matthew 7:1 so woefully out of context is the best you can do? Isn’t that just a little cliched by now?

Please read the whole passage. Jesus never tells us not to judge, but not to judge unrighteous judgements. In fact, had you bothered to read the whole chapter for yourself instead of just letting your priest tell you what it says, you would have seen that Jesus does instruct us to judge.

Brother, “my bible does not teach me this.” Can you give more examples?

I see nothing UnChristian about not giving the benefit of the doubt to somebody who is so obviously lying about what I said.
Had it been a simple misunderstanding, yes, I would have given you the benefit of the doubt. Had it been a one or maybe even two time thing, I would have given you the benefit of the doubt.

But that was not the case. You chose to follow me around and say, after each of my posts “I’m glad to see that you agree that [insert the opposite of what I said here]”.

I’ll use your words brother: “Yet if I asked for examples you would not be able to show me any.” Again, you are being uncharitable and again bearing false witness or are just suffering from some sort of persecution complex or other [insert] condition. No one is following you around but “you”. No one is “out to get you” PJ. Most of us in this discussion contribute daily. It was you who came into this forum not the other way around. Check the seniority dates.

Rather than make personal attacks on each of us and make uncharitable comments and pithy judgements wouldn’t you like to actually get into some theological discussions? I sure would.

James

 

[Pastor_Jim]

I don’t believe you understood my post. I do believe that Jesus drank alcohol, reread my post, it is hypothetical. As far as my comment being a “cop-out”, I could think of several “proof-texts” (John 20-23, confession) All Last Supper gospels (Matt, Mark, Luke; Eurcharist) That prove Catholic teachings (read my signature)

I’m sure you can. Unfortunately, the only thing Catholics have to defend their religion is prooftexting.

1. If you believe in Sola Scriptura and also believe that the bible does not contradict itself then explain “Call no one but me Father”, and yet "God says to “honor your father and mother”

One has nothing to do with the other. One is talking about honoring your parents and the other is talking about not giving undue spiritual authority to men.

(Now I’m sure you think that common sense needs to be applied here, and I agree, but my point is if you believe in Sola scriptura then you have to take the bible at face-value and their is no room for personal interpretation)

Actually, that isn’t what sola scriptura says at all. All sola scriptura is is the belief that the scriptures are the final authority to which all other sources of doctrine and practice must defer. Nothing about sola scriptura suggests that we are not to use sound scholarship in studying the scriptures.

1. Also you said that the judgement has “not taken place yet” well if that is true then explain how Jesus was able to tell the thief on the cross next to him "Today you will be with me in paradise (or my kingdom depending on the translation) Looks like he was judged to me.

Simple. The man died and went to paradise, not Heaven.

If the judgement has already taken place, then why do Jesus, Paul, and John all speak of it as being a future event that has not happened yet?

pnewton:

You are totally right, and I agree. I never meant to imply a double standard. I believe in both cases the actions and sin of some do not reflect back on the beliefs. 'By your fruits you will know them" reflects back truly only on the individual, not the beliefs of that persons Church, Catholic or Baptist.

Then your claims are false.

 

[SD_Catholic]

Actually, I’ve answered every question you’ve thrown at me. I’m still waiting for you all to answer many of my questions.

.

Actually I’ve only asked 1 simple question and you manage to give a long drawn out response that fails to answer a yes or no question…

Jim… Why will you not say that a soul in heaven with God is alive? You know it’s true but don’t want to admit it because you love telling us we pray to the dead…

I’m sure you’ll love this, but I believe your pride is getting in the way of your Christian judgement… maybe you should take a week off from bashing Catholics and come back when you are a bit less irritable.

SD

 

[Pastor_Jim]

I’m sure you’ll love this, but I believe your pride is getting in the way of your Christian judgement… maybe you should take a week off from bashing Catholics and come back when you are a bit less irritable.

Please give me an example of my having “bashed” Catholics.

Josh316:

Once again let’s look at my post, I said “proof-text” not proof-text
(meaning that Catholics don’t use proof texts but the bible as a whole to prove the faith. As far as “proof texts” being the only thing Catholics have to defend the faith what about Church fathers or early Church traditions or Jesus Christ or God the Father or God the Holy Spirit (Which, incidently is a Catholic logic and was started by Catholics, the Trinity I mean, look it up)

Actually, the scriptures taught the doctrine of the Trinity long before Catholicism came along.

Ten there is a place other than Heaven or hell? Certainly you can’t believe this being baptist.

Why can’t I believe what the Bible says?

So when Jesus says “with me” he is not going to Heaven?

Did Jesus say “Paradise” or “Heaven”?

Probably for people who either lived before Jesus came to earth or for people at the last judgement who are still on earth. But the point is there are people who are in Heaven right now so your theory doesn’t hold water.

Why not? The Bible still says that the judgement has not taken place yet.

Have the dead been resurrected yet? Has the church been raptured yet? The Bible tells us that the judgement will take place after these (and other) events.

 

[Josh316]

I’m sure you can. Unfortunately, the only thing Catholics have to defend their religion is prooftexting.

Once again let’s look at my post, I said “proof-text” not proof-text
(meaning that Catholics don’t use proof texts but the bible as a whole to prove the faith. As far as “proof texts” being the only thing Catholics have to defend the faith what about Church fathers or early Church traditions or Jesus Christ or God the Father or God the Holy Spirit (Which, incidently is a Catholic logic and was started by Catholics, the Trinity I mean, look it up)

One has nothing to do with the other. One is talking about honoring your parents and the other is talking about not giving undue spiritual authority to men.

Again read my post, I said that I knew that common sense needed to be applied but if all you do is say this means this, or that means that then it becomes a matter of self interpretation with later versus such as the last supper discourses.

Actually, that isn’t what sola scriptura says at all. All sola scriptura is is the belief that the scriptures are the final authority to which all other sources of doctrine and practice must defer. Nothing about sola scriptura suggests that we are not to use sound scholarship in studying the scriptures.

Which is what Catholics do ( Church fathers, ultimately Holy Spirit)

Simple. The man died and went to paradise, not Heaven.
Then there is a place other than Heaven or hell? Certainly you can’t believe this being baptist.

So when Jesus says “with me” he is not going to Heaven?

If the judgement has already taken place, then why do Jesus, Paul, and John all speak of it as being a future event that has not happened yet?

Probably for people who either lived before Jesus came to earth or for people at the last judgement who are still on earth. But the point is there are people who are in Heaven right now so your theory doesn’t hold water.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Once again let’s look at my post, I said “proof-text” not proof-text
(meaning that Catholics don’t use proof texts but the bible as a whole to prove the faith. As far as “proof texts” being the only thing Catholics have to defend the faith what about Church fathers or early Church traditions or Jesus Christ or God the Father or God the Holy Spirit (Which, incidently is a Catholic logic and was started by Catholics, the Trinity I mean, look it up)

Actually, the scriptures taught the doctrine of the Trinity long before Catholicism came along.

Ten there is a place other than Heaven or hell? Certainly you can’t believe this being baptist.

Why can’t I believe what the Bible says?

So when Jesus says “with me” he is not going to Heaven?

Did Jesus say “Paradise” or “Heaven”?

Probably for people who either lived before Jesus came to earth or for people at the last judgement who are still on earth. But the point is there are people who are in Heaven right now so your theory doesn’t hold water.

Why not? The Bible still says that the judgement has not taken place yet.

Have the dead been resurrected yet? Has the church been raptured yet? The Bible tells us that the judgement will take place after these (and other) events.

 

[Josh316]

Please give me an example of my having “bashed” Catholics.

Actually, the scriptures taught the doctrine of the Trinity long before Catholicism came along.

But Catholics were the first to see it for what it meant.

Why can’t I believe what the Bible says?

Believing in the bible is one thing, king james another

Did Jesus say “Paradise” or “Heaven”?

Again back to the “call no one but me Father” quote, use common sense it means the same thing

Why not? The Bible still says that the judgement has not taken place yet.

Again, what is this “paradise” then? Purgatory?

Have the dead been resurrected yet? Has the church been raptured yet? The Bible tells us that the judgement will take place after these (and other) events.

So there are no people in Heaven or hell? and if yes then why the need for a 2nd judgement? Surley God could get it right on the first try!