bartholomew-to-reinvigorate-dialogue-with-catholics

[ConstantineTG]

Hello Constantine - I only know what was said to me. I asked no questions of my friend at the time because I didn’t feel it was my place to question her personal choices.

The wife stated that their reason for stopping at two children was because “our priest told us it was okay”. (I am guessing she brought it up because we were expecting #4 in our early 40’s).
She then made a comment about her resting on Sundays because her priest says she works so much during the week (and she is a very hard working woman and mother) that she can miss sometimes. She would often entertain on the weekends and brought it up at dinner one night.

I know that there are many kinds of priests. Honestly, my questions go back to: where are the teachings to be found in Orthodoxy, does one need to consult a priest on such matters (as opposed to reading a catechism, for example), and by following a priest’s direction on such matters does it make the priest the absolute authority?

In Orthodoxy everyone is supposed to consult the priest. Reading a Catechism of Canons on your own and making your own conclusion is no better than a sola scriptura Protestant.

As with your story, we don’t know the whole story. Perhaps there are certain items your friend is not willing to share with you. There is just too many unknown variables here to make a conclusion.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Is that what this is all about…a pope and a catechism? Sheesh.

I will let others attempt to explain it to you going forward.

Sola Papam?

 

[CopticChristian]

Mickey - I am not sure why you intercept other people’s posts and answer for them…however, I don’t think it has been answered to tell you the truth.

If I have a question about birth control, I can pray about it, but I can’t ask Jesus what he thinks. So, it is difficult to use Him as an absolute authority since he never spoke about birth control.

I understand, sort of, that an Orthodox person with these questions must obviously seek out a confessor (since you are telling me so) and give an informed answer based on Sacred Scripture, Councils, etc.

I can also see that there seems to be no absolute teachings on certain things and that the Orthodox people must seek advice instead of looking it up in a catechism otherwise my friend would have done so.

Lax,

The Greek Orthodox issued an enyclical in 1937 about Birth Control and you can see an Orthodox summary here…

orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/orthodoxchristianmarriage.aspx

The practice of artificial birth control—by which is meant “the pill,” condoms, or any other kind of device—is actually condemned by the Orthodox Church. The Church of Greece, for example, in 1937 issued a special encyclical just for this purpose, to condemn birth control.

 

[mardukm]

Is that what this is all about…a pope and a catechism? Sheesh.

You forgot the “etc,” in his statement.

I’m sure lax is like any normal Catholic who does NOT believe that the Pope is the ONLY authority in the Catholic Church.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Reuben_J]

You forgot the “etc,” in his statement.

I’m sure lax is like any normal Catholic who does NOT believe that the Pope is the ONLY authority in the Catholic Church.

Blessings,
Marduk

Maybe because it is easier to dismiss a person’s idea rather than really addressing his question. At times I encounter such likewise response to my posts. Sometimes you got an answer not to your real question but what he thinks he wants you to question. Guess that’s part of life and we are like that by nature even though we call ourselves Christians.

 

[Mickey]

You forgot the “etc,” in his statement.

She keeps harping back to the Pope and the CCC. Me thinks it may be another veiled disguise to denigrate the Orthodox because they do not recignize an infallible, supreme, bishop of Rome.

 

[adf417]

Mickey - I am not sure why you intercept other people’s posts and answer for them…however, I don’t think it has been answered to tell you the truth.

Nor do I -

 

[Cavaradossi]

All of this vain talk about a catechism and universal teachings. What do you all suppose that Roman Catholics did before the CCC was published? I would recon they probably followed the advice of their parish priest and local ordinary like sheep following a shepherd or something (something which is absurdly being spun as a negative thing in this thread). How wonderful that the CCC was finally published so that Roman Catholics could be freed from the heavy burden of having to refer to their parish priest, local ordinary, and local synod in favor of referring to “universal teachings.”

Tell me this, if an issue which is not mentioned in the CCC or in any authoritative documents were to occur in your life, would you immediately write letters to Rome to obtain the universal teaching on this matter? Of course not! You would seek the advice of your parish priest, who himself would seek the opinion of the local ordinary. The issue would likely stop there unless it became a point of contention, at which point it would be resolved at the level of the local synod or conference of bishops. This is exactly how it works for Orthodox Christians as well. We simply do the same thing we have always done, and what Roman Catholics used to do before the creation of the CCC (that is, trusting in the guidance of the bishop).

 

[dvdjs]

Lax,

The Greek Orthodox issued an enyclical in 1937 about Birth Control and you can see an Orthodox summary here…

orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/orthodoxchristianmarriage.aspx

Yes, but…
Whatever the teaching might have been in 1937, artificial birth control is no longer prohibited in the EOC. This current position strong enough that a ROCOR priest who used to post here has even challenged the existence of the 1937 document proscribing ABC.

And, of course there is this quotation from the EP in a July 20, 1990, article in the San Francisco Chronicle.

Asked the Orthodox church’s position on abortion, Bartholomais described a stand more liberal than that of the Roman Catholic Church, which condemns abortion in all cases and whose clergy have, in some cities, excommunicated leading pro-choice Catholics.

Although the Orthodox church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, ”generally speaking, respects human life and the continuation of pregnancy,” Bartholomais said, the church also ”respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples.”

”We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples,” he said. ”We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.”

 

[CopticChristian]

All of this vain talk about a catechism and universal teachings.** What do you all suppose that Roman Catholics did before the CCC was published? I** would recon they probably followed the advice of their parish priest and local ordinary like sheep following a shepherd or something (something which is absurdly being spun as a negative thing in this thread). How wonderful that the CCC was finally published so that Roman Catholics could be freed from the heavy burden of having to refer to their parish priest, local ordinary, and local synod in favor of referring to “universal teachings.”

Tell me this, if an issue which is not mentioned in the CCC or in any authoritative documents were to occur in your life, would you immediately write letters to Rome to obtain the universal teaching on this matter? Of course not! You would seek the advice of your parish priest, who himself would seek the opinion of the local ordinary. The issue would likely stop there unless it became a point of contention, at which point it would be resolved at the level of the local synod or conference of bishops. This is exactly how it works for Orthodox Christians as well. We simply do the same thing we have always done, and what Roman Catholics used to do before the creation of the CCC (that is, trusting in the guidance of the bishop).

Cav,

Catechesis means to echo. You agree with an Oral Tradition and that teaching has always been handed down or we would be in total disagreement. Prior to the Universal Catechism there was the Catechism of the Council of Trent, The Roman Catechism and in the USA, the Baltimore Catechism. The teachings however were as you would agree a matter of Oral Tradtion, now embodied in the Universal Catechism.

I believe that there are attempts by others as you know to solidify and make ease of knowing and learning by providing Catechisms. The Eastern Catholic Church as you know is forming their own Catechism that reflects the deposit of Faith.

 

[KathleenGee]

Mickey…I don’t come on Orthodox sites and will have to study it elsewhere.

You appear to me to take offense when none is intended.

kathleen

 

[CopticChristian]

Yes, but…
Whatever the teaching might have been in 1937, artificial birth control is no longer prohibited in the EOC. This current position strong enough that a ROCOR priest who used to post here has even challenged the existence of the 1937 document proscribing ABC.

And, of course there is this quotation from the EP in a July 20, 1990, article in the San Francisco Chronicle.

DVD,

So, then it would appear that many would like to know what the Orthodox view on abortion and BC was in the year 1054, as the Ratzinger formula would dictate this as a beginning.

 

[Mickey]

Nor do I

It has been answered multiple times. Perhaps you should read the thread.

 

[Mickey]

All of this vain talk about a catechism and universal teachings. What do you all suppose that Roman Catholics did before the CCC was published?

Good question.

I would recon they probably followed the advice of their parish priest and local ordinary like sheep following a shepherd or something (something which is absurdly being spun as a negative thing in this thread).

Indeed.

How wonderful that the CCC was finally published so that Roman Catholics could be freed from the heavy burden of having to refer to their parish priest, local ordinary, and local synod in favor of referring to “universal teachings.”

Tell me this, if an issue which is not mentioned in the CCC or in any authoritative documents were to occur in your life, would you immediately write letters to Rome to obtain the universal teaching on this matter?

I would like to see this one answered.

Of course not! You would seek the advice of your parish priest, who himself would seek the opinion of the local ordinary. The issue would likely stop there unless it became a point of contention, at which point it would be resolved at the level of the local synod or conference of bishops. This is exactly how it works for Orthodox Christians as well. We simply do the same thing we have always done, and what Roman Catholics used to do before the creation of the CCC (that is, trusting in the guidance of the bishop).

Ah yes…and now it has been answered yet again.

 

[CopticChristian]

Mickey - I am not sure why you intercept other people’s posts and answer for them…however, I don’t think it has been answered to tell you the truth.

If I have a question about birth control, I can pray about it, but I can’t ask Jesus what he thinks. So, it is difficult to use Him as an absolute authority since he never spoke about birth control.

I understand, sort of, that an Orthodox person with these questions must obviously seek out a confessor (since you are telling me so) and give an informed answer based on Sacred Scripture, Councils, etc.

I can also see that there seems to be no absolute teachings on certain things and that the Orthodox people must seek advice instead of looking it up in a catechism otherwise my friend would have done so.

Lax,

I believe that Mick is giving the best answer possible… I looked a little and found this…Father Thomas Hopko from the Orthodox website provided this answer.

monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?1420-Birth-control-among-various-Orthodox-groups

The control of the conception of a child by any means is also condemned by the Church if it means the lack of fulfillment in the family, the hatred of children, the fear of responsibility, the desire for sexual pleasure as purely fleshly, lustful satisfaction, etc.

Again, however, married people practicing birth control are not necessarily deprived of Holy Communion, if in conscience before God and with the blessing of their spiritual father, they are convinced that their motives are not entirely unworthy. Here again, however, such a couple cannot pretend to justify themselves in the light of the absolute perfection of the Kingdom of God.

This appears to be the answer. A couple will be guided by their spiritual father/confessor…you may not like this, you may not agree with this, however it appears to be as Mickey said…this is how it is today…

 

[Cavaradossi]

What a fine thing indeed that the Ecumenical Patriarch is not a Pope. The Russian Orthodox Church, in contrast to the Ecumenical Patriarch’s unfortunate misstatement condemns all abortions, and indeed, even condemns those who would procure an abortion to save their own lives.

 

[CopticChristian]

**All of this vain talk about a catechism and universal teachings. What do you all suppose that Roman Catholics did before the CCC was published? **I would recon they probably followed the advice of their parish priest and local ordinary like sheep following a shepherd or something (something which is absurdly being spun as a negative thing in this thread). How wonderful that the CCC was finally published so that Roman Catholics could be freed from the heavy burden of having to refer to their parish priest, local ordinary, and local synod in favor of referring to “universal teachings.”

Tell me this, if an issue which is not mentioned in the CCC or in any authoritative documents were to occur in your life, would you immediately write letters to Rome to obtain the universal teaching on this matter? Of course not! You would seek the advice of your parish priest, who himself would seek the opinion of the local ordinary. The issue would likely stop there unless it became a point of contention, at which point it would be resolved at the level of the local synod or conference of bishops. This is exactly how it works for Orthodox Christians as well. We simply do the same thing we have always done, and what Roman Catholics used to do before the creation of the CCC (that is, trusting in the guidance of the bishop).

Cav,

There appears to be interest in Catechesis of Orthodoxy. I would like to see Orthodoxy promulgated by other than a confessor, would you agree? See here there are many that talk of Catechesis of Orthodoxy…

christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/catechis.html

orthodoxeurope.org/page/10/1.aspx

pravoslavieto.com/docs/eng/orthodox_catechism_of_philaret.htm

biserica.org/Publicatii/Catechism/index.html

This is not a Roman Phenomenon, it appears to be a need that is met with production of something people can get to without speaking to someone…people have interest and want to know.

Would you recommend one of the above or not?

 

[Mickey]

artificial birth control is no longer prohibited in the EOC.

Really? Source? I have seen some instances regarding condom use as a matter of economia…but I have not heard that all ABC is now permitted.

And, of course there is this quotation from the EP

Of course if the Patriarch were to come out with a pro-death stance…he would be dead wrong. Thank God he is not an infallible supreme promulgator.

 

[Mickey]

This appears to be the answer. A couple will be guided by their spiritual father/confessor…you may not like this, you may not agree with this, however it appears to be as Mickey said…this is how it is today…

This is how it has always been. Are you a Coptic Catholic (according to your name)? Do you not also have (and know about) a spiritual father?

 

[CopticChristian]

This is how it has always been. Are you a Coptic Catholic (according to your name)? Do you not also have (and know about) a spiritual father?

Mickey,

The confessor for the Roman is not necessarily a relationship with a person but a Sacrament. I believe that the best possible model would be to have the same confessor, and I do, however I would imagine that there are those that partake of the Sacrament of Reconcilliation with different confessors. My priest is my friend and answers questions outside the Sacrament however the notion of spiritual father is somewhat differently percieved, I would say.