Based on probability, if one had to make a choice, is it more reasonable to be an Atheist or a Theist

[lemondiesel]

I guess I use the same metric as you do.

These are Christian countries? Just because people call themselves Christians? It seems your definition changes depending on which way the wind blows.

Personally speaking, if someone calls themself a Hindu or a Jew or a Muslim or a Christian, then I’m happy to accept that. Who am I to doubt their own beliefs.

So all the people who class themselves as Christian in the US go into the same basket. That includes you. Say hi to everyone.

If people can’t say they are non believers with pride, then they are believers. What are the gun laws in those countries?

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Well. Compared to when America was more God Fearing in the past? I’d say we’ve gone a bit down hill wouldn’t you?

Some would say it has gotten worst. Some would say it has gotten better. There has never been a time when all groups were having the same type of experience in the USA. The old USA wasn’t good to everyone. The current USA isn’t either.

 

[Latinitas]

To the OP’s question I’ll say this:

There is 100% probability that God exists. Even if I had no supernatural revelation, I could know, with certainty, that God exists, that He is one and immaterial, the creator and Lord of all things, infinite in all perfections etc. Of course, in reality, only a few would come to this knowledge, due to ignorance, hardness of heart etc. This is one reason why Divine Revelation is needed.

Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Really?

Do you have any statistics that show that depressed Haitians are the ones who are doing the killing?

Yep. Forced to live in the moment, and happy, paradoxically.

Happier than some of the richest folks in the US, peculiarly.

This sounds like nothing but a testament to the kerygma.

Yes. You are echoing the kerygma here, too.

Note that I sad unhappy not depressed. You assume depressed people kill themselves, but so do those who are frustrated, angry, hateful, envious, mentally ill, afraid, etc. I’m assuming that most Haitians who kill are angry, but they could also be frustrated, hungry, outraged, mentally ill, or any number of things. Unhappiness wears many garments LOL.

Forced to live in the moment because death hounds them as they live in squalor and misery. Meanwhile, rich secularists can choose to live in the moment at their leisure. Would you trade places with someone in Haiti? I bet they would go for it in a heartbeat.

“Kerygma” does not improve living conditions. For 1,000 years Christianity was the dominant philosophy of much of Europe and it was a place of poverty and misery for all except nobles and clergy. The industrial revolution and capitalism, however, had measurably good effects on the health and prosperity of billions of people starting around the end of the 18th century. World poverty has been falling precipitously for a generation, and for the first time, billions of people live lives that would have made European nobles in the 13th century envious.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

I wouldn’t suppose those “murder rates” counting only civilians would include genocides in the millions or tens of millions committed by totalitarian regimes, would they? I wouldn’t be making assertions about “totalitarian” anything until all the relevant data is in.

Neither does it include the tens and hundreds of millions of abortions of baby humans committed and permitted by “wealthy secularism.”

Wealthy Secularism: where unhappy people kill…defenseless babies.

The data does not include wars, just every day murder.

Authoritarian states also destroy lots of unborn children, without the mother’s consent. Sadly, many mothers choose to kill their own children, and secular states protect this action and fail to defend the unborn child because they do not see that the unborn child is a human being with natural rights.

It truly is shocking and terrible how many children are killed this way. I do not think history will judge us kindly for how we treated unborn children. I’m hopeful that people will wake up to this one day. The pro-abortion lobby is shrill and loud, but they’re losing ground. Ironically, I think one thing that could protect more children is a strong push from secular voices calling for the protection of life. I think many people are turned off of religion, and the association of the pro-life agenda with religion is hurting it.

 

[Trident_H]

Note that I sad unhappy not depressed. You assume depressed people kill themselves, but so do those who are frustrated, angry, hateful, envious, mentally ill, afraid, etc. I’m assuming that most Haitians who kill are angry, but they could also be frustrated, hungry, outraged, mentally ill, or any number of things. Unhappiness wears many garments LOL.

Forced to live in the moment because death hounds them as they live in squalor and misery. Meanwhile, rich secularists can choose to live in the moment at their leisure. Would you trade places with someone in Haiti? I bet they would go for it in a heartbeat.

“Kerygma” does not improve living conditions. For 1,000 years Christianity was the dominant philosophy of much of Europe and it was a place of poverty and misery for all except nobles and clergy. The industrial revolution and capitalism, however, had measurably good effects on the health and prosperity of billions of people starting around the end of the 18th century. World poverty has been falling precipitously for a generation, and for the first time, billions of people live lives that would have made European nobles in the 13th century envious.

Remind me again about all of the colleges and proto-hospitals started up by generous atheistic organizations during the middle ages. Like you know, the groups who helped people in deep need in a regular way and helped hang on to knowledge by re-copying ancient books?

 

[PumpkinCookie]

And, of course, many of the countries with the lowest murder rates are also Catholic or Christian countries: Italy, Spain, Poland, Austria, Germany, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, and Czech Republic.

Now the only thing left for you to establish is that those murders committed in “murderous countries” are predominantly being committed by believing Catholics and Christians living lives that are faithful to the teachings of the Church and/or Jesus, as the case may be.

That list of countries is most assuredly secular. Even former Pope Benedict would agree with that. What was his line? “The sun is setting on Europe.” Actually, the sun is setting on Catholicism. Europe’s population is growing…just not among the “right” sorts of people am I right? Wink wink, nudge nudge? (the immediately prior racist sentences are sarcasm).

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Remind me again about all of the colleges and proto-hospitals started up by generous atheistic organizations during the middle ages. Like you know, the groups who helped people in deep need in a regular way and helped hang on to knowledge by re-copying ancient books?

There were no atheistic organizations, the Church would have had the members tortured and executed after burning their books. You know, like they did with the rest of the ancient literature that didn’t serve their purposes in those monasteries you bring up. It was generous of them to use some of the wealth they extorted from a slave class of serfs over hundreds of years for good purposes like hospitals though. Also, they commissioned a lot of fantastic art and architecture.

 

[Entwhistler]

Note that I sad unhappy not depressed. You assume depressed people kill themselves, but so do those who are frustrated, angry, hateful, envious, mentally ill, afraid, etc. I’m assuming that most Haitians who kill are angry, but they could also be frustrated, hungry, outraged, mentally ill, or any number of things. Unhappiness wears many garments LOL.

Forced to live in the moment because death hounds them as they live in squalor and misery. Meanwhile, rich secularists can choose to live in the moment at their leisure. Would you trade places with someone in Haiti? I bet they would go for it in a heartbeat.

“Kerygma” does not improve living conditions. For 1,000 years Christianity was the dominant philosophy of much of Europe and it was a place of poverty and misery for all except nobles and clergy. The industrial revolution and capitalism, however, had measurably good effects on the health and prosperity of billions of people starting around the end of the 18th century. World poverty has been falling precipitously for a generation, and for the first time, billions of people live lives that would have made European nobles in the 13th century envious.

I’m not quite sure how Christianity is responsible for “poverty” during the Middle Ages. There was just the same amount of “poverty” in the Americas at the time. If not more. Was the religion of the native Americans to blame for that? What about the poverty in China, and Russia? Until the Industrial Revolution, there was just only so many ways to make money. Farming could only be done a certain way and there was no printing press.

The Fall of the Roman Empire did not help Europe either, and many technological skills were lost (the great roads of Rome were lost to history at that time). During the High Middle Ages, many of the lost Roman arts were rediscovered along with some skills from the Arabic world as well. If there was poverty in the Middle Ages, it should be blamed on the fall of the Roman Empire, not on Christianity. Christianity pulled Europe through the devastation that followed that Fall. The authority of the Church did wonders during the Early Middle Ages and kept the flower that was Europe from completely dying. Far from keeping Europe poor, Christianity revitalized it.

 

[tonyrey]

No one has ever lived in such a state. The powers of ignorance and tyranny are relentless. However, I have faith that most of humanity wants to live in freedom and peace, and hopefully some day we will accomplish this together, regardless of religious beliefs.

The most highly populated nation in the world is atheistic, tyrannical and notorious for its abuse of human rights - like the defunct USSR. There is no rational foundation whatsoever in Godless societies for the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity whch are based on Christ’s teaching that we are all children of the same Father.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

I’m not quite sure how Christianity is responsible for “poverty” during the Middle Ages. There was just the same amount of “poverty” in the Americas at the time. If not more. Was the religion of the native Americans to blame for that? What about the poverty in China, and Russia? Until the Industrial Revolution, there was just only so many ways to make money. Farming could only be done a certain way and there was no printing press.

The Fall of the Roman Empire did not help Europe either, and many technological skills were lost (the great roads of Rome were lost to history at that time). During the High Middle Ages, many of the lost Roman arts were rediscovered along with some skills from the Arabic world as well. If there was poverty in the Middle Ages, it should be blamed on the fall of the Roman Empire, not on Christianity. Christianity pulled Europe through the devastation that followed that Fall. The authority of the Church did wonders during the Early Middle Ages and kept the flower that was Europe from completely dying. Far from keeping Europe poor, Christianity revitalized it.

Of course Christianity isn’t responsible for poverty ,it is the natural human condition…but neither does it seem like this philosophy is responsible for the general massive increase in world wide wealth in the past century.

Neither is Christianity responsible for the “dark ages” of course. However, they also aren’t responsible for the renaissance, the enlightenment, the industrial revolution, or the liberal revolutions that have created freedom and peace for a huge swath of humanity. In fact, they actively discouraged all of those things.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

The most highly populated nation in the world is atheistic, tyrannical and notorious for its abuse of human rights - like the defunct USSR. There is no rational foundation whatsoever in Godless societies for the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity whch are based on Christ’s teaching that we are all children of the same Father.

I personally do believe that natural rights come from God, because I believe they inhere in nature and nature is part of God. That is a faith commitment. However, I suppose it is possible to have a faith commitment to human rights in and of themselves without reference to theism of any kind. One could invoke reciprocal morality to ground this belief.

Life, liberty, property. Imposed equality and fraternity are incompatible with liberty. China has imposed fraternity, how fitting that you mention them.

 

[Bradski]

Neither does it include the tens and hundreds of millions of abortions of baby humans committed and permitted by “wealthy secularism.”

Wealthy Secularism: where unhappy people kill…defenseless babies.

We’re all familiar with Godwin’s Law. Then there was a case in another thread re homosexuality (what is it with all the sex in this forum) when it wasn’t a dozen posts long before bestiality, paedophillia and incest was brought up.

I suggested that as the odds of mentioning any of those three rapidly approach 1 in any discussion of homosexuality, we needed a new law, which, in a pathetic attempt to acheive Internet Immortality, I suggested we call Bradski’s Law.

We now need a third. May I suggest Peter’s Law?

 

[Entwhistler]

Of course Christianity isn’t responsible for poverty ,it is the natural human condition…but neither does it seem like this philosophy is responsible for the general massive increase in world wide wealth in the past century.

Ah, okay. Although I must say your post was rather misleading.

Neither is Christianity responsible for the “dark ages” of course. However, they also aren’t responsible for the renaissance, the enlightenment, the industrial revolution, or the liberal revolutions that have created freedom and peace for a huge swath of humanity. In fact, they actively discouraged all of those things.

The Renaissance had Christian origins but I would tend to agree that Christianity, specifically Catholicism, began to have less of an impact on the ideas during and past the Enlightenment. Obviously, the basic, fundamental ideas were from Christianity (along with the ancient Greek and Roman virtues) but many of the new ideas came from a secular, materialistic worldview. The worldview of Hobbes, Machiavelli, Hume, Rousseau, Hegel and others separated God from politics and natural law. They did emphasize freedom, but in a way in which it did not come from God. They emphasized rights yet in a way that was more in line with a subjective view of the world.

 

[PRmerger]

We’re all familiar with Godwin’s Law. Then there was a case in another thread re homosexuality (what is it with all the sex in this forum) when it wasn’t a dozen posts long before bestiality, paedophillia and incest was brought up.

I suggested that as the odds of mentioning any of those three rapidly approach 1 in any discussion of homosexuality, we needed a new law, which, in a pathetic attempt to acheive Internet Immortality, I suggested we call Bradski’s Law.

We now need a third. May I suggest Peter’s Law?

You’re way too late, friend.

I invoked the CAFs version of Godwin’s law a lonnggggg time ago:

Ah. So here we have it. What I call the CAFs version of Godwin’s Law.

Godwin’s law (also known as Godwin’s Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin’s law of Nazi Analogies) is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990 which has become an Internet adage. It states: “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.” In other words, Godwin put forth the sarcastic observation that, given enough time, all discussions —regardless of topic or scope —inevitably wind up being about Hitler and the Nazis. Also the poster who mentioned Nazis loses all debates/discussions they had in said topic, and their insults are nullified.

Here’s the CAF version of Godwin’s Law I’m proposing: “As an online discussion about the CC grows longer, the probability of a reference to sexual abuse by priests approaches 1”

However, the poster who mentions the abuse loses all debates/discussions said in topic, and his insults are nullified.

 

[PRmerger]

Note that I sad unhappy not depressed.

LOL!

Really?

You’re going to make a distinction here about the difference in this context between “unhappy” and “depressed”?

You assume depressed people kill themselves, but so do those who are frustrated, angry, hateful, envious, mentally ill, afraid, etc.

Depressed people do kill themselves.

And depression is a form of mental illness.

Can you offer some stats please for folks who committed suicide due to being hateful and envious and frustrated and angry, but NOT depressed?

“Kerygma” does not improve living conditions.

Oh, but it does. When it is the orthopraxy as well as the orthodoxy.

 

[PRmerger]

There were no atheistic organizations, the Church would have had the members tortured and executed after burning their books. You know, like they did with the rest of the ancient literature that didn’t serve their purposes in those monasteries you bring up. It was generous of them to use some of the wealth they extorted from a slave class of serfs over hundreds of years for good purposes like hospitals though. Also, they commissioned a lot of fantastic art and architecture.

Careful, dearest.

Your antipathy towards Catholicism is beginning to rear its head again, your protests to the contrary notwithstanding.

It is good for you to be here and in dialogue with knowledgeable Catholics, so please be a bit more judicious about how you present your views on Catholicism.

 

[Trident_H]

There were no atheistic organizations, the Church would have had the members tortured and executed after burning their books. You know, like they did with the rest of the ancient literature that didn’t serve their purposes in those monasteries you bring up. It was generous of them to use some of the wealth they extorted from a slave class of serfs over hundreds of years for good purposes like hospitals though. Also, they commissioned a lot of fantastic art and architecture.

Yeah. Wicked Church, hey? Always tamping down on everyone’s right to go to hell. And nutty too? Spending half its time healing and the other half torturing. Just honestly couldn’t line its ducks up in a row fast enough to shoot them back off the shelf.

And I mean good thing the atheist rulers that came along later sure showed everyone exactly how much better things could be under their rule instead.

But I’m glad your heart’s breaking over the serfs of the day. I mean I bet you never even set foot in stores that sell you stuff from countries still doing that sort of thing today, right? Like never once, am I right?

 

[tonyrey]

I personally do believe that natural rights come from God, because I believe they inhere in nature and nature is part of God. That is a faith commitment. However, I suppose it is possible to have a faith commitment to human rights in and of themselves without reference to theism of any kind. One could invoke reciprocal morality to ground this belief.

Life, liberty, property. Imposed equality and fraternity are incompatible with liberty. China has imposed fraternity, how fitting that you mention them.

“faith” is the key word. It applies to atheism like every other ideology. It is impossible to live rationally without making any assumptions about reality. For a start we have to believe in the power of reason and the intelligibility of the universe, fundamental facts which require explanation but are usually taken for granted. That is where materialism and atheism collapse…

 

[Nixbits]

“faith” is the key word. It applies to atheism like every other ideology.

groan Not this again. I almost can’t be bothered to refute this once again, but I will (not that it will have any effect) It takes no faith to have a lack of belief in something.