Based on probability, if one had to make a choice, is it more reasonable to be an Atheist or a Theist

[Trident_H]

America is the most Christian society in Western civilization. That is, the most Christian society on the planet.

How do ypu think you are doing?

Well. Compared to when America was more God Fearing in the past? I’d say we’ve gone a bit down hill wouldn’t you?

 

[PumpkinCookie]

The irony of your remarks is that the wisdom of Christianity triumphed over Greek and Roman religion. The apostles were not exclusively ignorant and illiterate, but were open to a wisdom that even the Jews had long ago abandoned with their corrupt Sanhedrin.

Today yes droves are turning away from these beliefs because the world is on the fast track to hell, not because Jesus, Paul and Peter were witches or shamans.

Yes, in the post-apocalyptic wasteland of western Europe 500-1200 AD, a land of barbarism and superstition, the Christian religion “triumphed.” The educated Romans and Greeks had long abandoned belief in their capricious “gods” by the time Christianity became popular. Trouble is, it was seen as “unpatriotic” to openly renounce Jupiter or Caesar as gods. People paid lip service to them, but skepticism, cynicism, and many other isms and new religions flourished. It’s analogous to Christianity today. The intellectual and economic elites abandoned Christianity in the 18th century, and now the common people are following, quickly.

The world is not on the fast track to hell my friend, cheer up! There are more people living longer, better, and healthier lives than ever before in human history. There are more internet capable devices than human beings. Crime is down all over the globe. The news media makes it seem like one non-stop blood bath but looks at the statistics from the WHO, UNICEF, UN, Worldbank, IMF, or any other large data-gathering organization.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

On the contrary. It is absurd to believe Jesus would permit the successor of the apostle He appointed as the head of the Church to promulgate false doctrine.

Why? Isn’t this the genetic fallacy? Just because Jesus or the Catholic Church says something doesn’t make it true.

You have just stated "I don’t remember proclaiming Mark’s doctrine of hell to be untrue…"!
“Hell is a doctrine appealing to our basic fearful instincts.” Another genetic fallacy!

Oddly enough you keep seeing evaluations of the truthfulness of the doctrine of hell where there are none. Yellow signs reading “caution” also appeal to our basic fearful instincts. By saying that, I do not imply that yellow signs reading “caution” are somehow intrinsically false.

Hell is a false doctrine because there is no evidence for it, in my opinion. It’s also unreasonable.

It is absurd to believe terrorists are in heaven with all reasonable and decent people…

Agree, they are dead, just like everyone else who has died. Possibly permanently so.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Have you ever lived in “an agnostic secular state with robust personal freedom” for everyone? If so where is it?

No one has ever lived in such a state. The powers of ignorance and tyranny are relentless. However, I have faith that most of humanity wants to live in freedom and peace, and hopefully some day we will accomplish this together, regardless of religious beliefs.

 

[PRmerger]

Why? Isn’t this the genetic fallacy? Just because Jesus or the Catholic Church says something doesn’t make it true.

Er…yes. If Jesus says something that DOES make it true.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

America is the most Christian society in Western civilization. That is, the most Christian society on the planet.

How do ypu think you are doing?

Not well, thanks to atheist Madalyn Murray O’Hair and friends.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

The world is not on the fast track to hell my friend, cheer up! There are more people living longer, better, and healthier lives than ever before in human history. There are more internet capable devices than human beings. Crime is down all over the globe. The news media makes it seem like one non-stop blood bath but looks at the statistics from the WHO, UNICEF, UN, Worldbank, IMF, or any other large data-gathering organization.

You must be consulting with Obama’s consultant.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Yes, in the post-apocalyptic wasteland of western Europe 500-1200 AD, a land of barbarism and superstition, the Christian religion “triumphed.” The educated Romans and Greeks had long abandoned belief in their capricious “gods” by the time Christianity became popular. Trouble is, it was seen as “unpatriotic” to openly renounce Jupiter or Caesar as gods. People paid lip service to them, but skepticism, cynicism, and many other isms and new religions flourished. It’s analogous to Christianity today. The intellectual and economic elites abandoned Christianity in the 18th century, and now the common people are following, quickly

Yes, I’m sure you are pleased to thinks these thoughts with your breakfast coffee.

But as Chesterton duly noted, Christ rose from the dead. And a hundred times so has Christianity against the most terrible odds that at last it had been vanguished.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Where “people are prosperous and free” and moving away from theistic attachment as you say they also struggle to reproduce at the level of repopulation, suffer increased rates of depression, and voluntarily kill themselves (suicide) at rates exceeding the more superstitious regions of the globe, shamans included.

Where would you rather live: Denmark or Haiti? Are you more at risk of being sad or dying from malnutrition, curable diseases, or tribal violence? Give me Denmark, every time.

These more prosperous and modern nations typically labeled the West, these “agnostic secular state with robust personal freedoms” also seem to increasingly struggle in their search for unifying, defining ideals and narratives that could delineate a constructive societal mainstream.

Why is unity important? Who cares if we agree? Why can’t we each form and follow our own conceptions of the good life, so long as we do not transgress upon our fellow human being’s natural rights?

Let’s take the US as an example. Our ability to simply govern ourselves, pass budgets, and not perpetually hate each other increasingly falls victim to ever more bifurcative politics and the platforms of the two major parties’ candidates leave little room to blame this disfunction on religious radicals of any stripe. Abortion’s been the hot bottom religious issue in this country for decades. So naming the current pro-life candidate seems like a relevant point here: it’s Donald Trump. If he loses this November you could probably get him to perform an abortion himself for the right amount of money. Whatever’s wrong with this country those coexist bumper stickers don’t seem to adequately grasp the problem anymore.

Americans have grown weak and fat of mind, body, and spirit. The problems we see are failures to seize opportunities and thrive in freedom and peace. People want to be coddled and succored by an all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful state/daddy/god. Freedom requires virtue and grit, and those who lack both suffer. The same happened to the Romans of late antiquity. A return to superstition, or a new superstition, isn’t going to resolve this, in fact it will hasten the decline since it offers no real solutions. “Be the change you want to see in the world,” while cliche and glib, is true. If religion makes you into a stronger person, great. However, not everyone feels the same.

Whereas any group of humans will have a certain amount of wack jobs, religious radicals, and frustrated ex-employees it’s the modern, liberal, increasingly agnostic citizens of the West who have, since the early 90’s, become consistently more likely to initiate mass casualty civilian attacks when we become wack jobs, religious radicals, or frustrated ex-employees. Sub-Saharan Africa may have a lot going for it, but they can’t touch our proclivity for randomly killing each other. At least we’re less superstitious than they are.

Wrong. The highly superstitious countries are the most murderous by far. Notice anything about this list? Organize it by rate. Several “Catholic” countries top the list.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

How many immigrants or refugees have you met? I personally know refugees and immigrants from several of these countries. I’ve spoken to them as they describe the daily atrocities and violence they experienced in their home countries. I’ve had them tell me that school shootings and the series of police murders in the USA don’t phase them at all. They think America is a land of blessed peace and prosperity. I’ve driven them home to their run-down studio apartments in the “ghetto” and they think it is a paradise. We’ve lost perspective because we’re so ridiculously rich, healthy, and safe.

Apart from a tautological nationalism (Our country’s good because we like it), what is it exactly that makes a Western secular nation cohesive in the sense we usually assume nations are? Or perhaps the better question for those of us in the West is that, having moved beyond the biases, stupidity, and superstitions of super-natural attachment; is there any cohesive force holding our nations together? Apart from the military and police that is.

Cohesion isn’t important to me, why is it important to you? Diversity is the stuff of life! Can we cohere around freedom, peace, and the rule of law, and respect for life?

When we in the West do have to finally struggle …]

Modern, agnostic secularism has many merits in my opinion, but the assumption that it is the philosophical and political culmination of human history, though still widespread, is a vestige of 20th century liberal thought that really ought to be updated. Once the victory lap around superstitious shamans, Christians, Jews, and Muslims is complete, that is.

Much of what you’re talking about is a spectacle created by the media. The discourse they’re attempting to steer is mindless drivel. I don’t view agnostic secularism as the culmination of human history. If God would unambiguously interact with us and tell us how best to live, that would be the culmination of human history. Hasn’t happened yet, from my point of view, so in the meantime I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree and live our lives how we see fit.

 

[PRmerger]

Where would you rather live: Denmark or Haiti? Are you more at risk of being sad or dying from malnutrition, curable diseases, or tribal violence? Give me Denmark, every time.

Really?

Why Are Haitians So Happy?

Denmark is 2nd only to Iceland in anti-depressant consumption?&csp=45f4df11dc99cd2019aa9aa30865f74f)

And look at suicide rates for Denmark vs Haiti: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

 

[PRmerger]

The highly superstitious countries are the most murderous by far.

Huh?

What’s a “highly superstitious country”?
Where’s the list for this?

Your wiki site didn’t mention “superstition” at all.

And when you give us this list of “highly superstitious countries” could you please tell us the metric that was used for determining the degree of superstition there?

 

[Peter_Plato]

Crime is down all over the globe. The news media makes it seem like one non-stop blood bath but looks at the statistics from the WHO, UNICEF, UN, Worldbank, IMF, or any other large data-gathering organization.

Down from when, 1991 when the crime rate was 758.2 incidents per 100 000?

Still up massively from 1960, the first year for which the stats are available. AND, not surprisingly, around the time American culture began to lose its connection with Christianity.

1960: Crime Rate 160.9 / 100 000
2012: Crime Rate 386.9 / 100 000

Estimated crime in United States-Total
Year Population/ Crime

1960 179,323,175 160.9

1991 252,153,092 **758.2 **

2012 313,914,040 386.9

ucrdatatool.gov/Search/Crime/State/RunCrimeStatebyState.cfm

To be noted is that the table ends at 2012, not 2015 or 2016. A great deal has changed in the past five years.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Really?

Why Are Haitians So Happy?

Denmark is 2nd only to Iceland in anti-depressant consumption?&csp=45f4df11dc99cd2019aa9aa30865f74f)

And look at suicide rates for Denmark vs Haiti: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Denmark: where unhappy people kill…themselves.

Haiti: where unhappy people kill…others.

The choice is a no brainer for me. I’d much rather be at risk for suicide than be a victim or (even worse) the perpetrator of a murder.

You realize that article you linked to suggests Haitians are happy because they’re forced to live in the moment just to survive the misery of the daily struggle for survival, meanwhile rich westerners have time to mourn missed opportunities and worry about the future.

One solution for regret and anxiety is gratitude and mindfulness. They’re both free. How about the solution for dirty water, corrupt governments, filth, violence, chaos, natural disasters, disease, and economic collapse? Not so simple and not so free…

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Huh?

What’s a “highly superstitious country”?
Where’s the list for this?

Your wiki site didn’t mention “superstition” at all.

And when you give us this list of “highly superstitious countries” could you please tell us the metric that was used for determining the degree of superstition there?

Look at the countries with the highest murder rates: Honduras, El Salvador, Venezuela, Colombia, Mexico, Brazil, South Africa, DR Congo, South Sudan, Congo, Papua New Guinea, Nigeria, Haiti, Costa Rica, Philippines.

Look at the countries with the lowest murder rates: Japan, Singapore, Iceland, Indonesia, Austria, Switzerland, Norway, South Korea, UAE, Czech Republic, Poland, Spain, China, Saudi Arabia, Italy, Hong Kong, Sweden, Germany.

The USA is in the middle of the pack, at 3.9 per 100,000. Honduras is the highest at 84.6, most of the lowest cited above are at less than 1, and all of them are less than 2.

So, low murder rates seem to correspond to wealth and freedom, or wealth and totalitarian governments.

High murder rates seem to correspond to poverty, chaos, and superstition. Many of the most murderous countries are majority Catholic or Christian. Of course, voodoo, santeria, death cults, and other forms of shamanism and animistic beliefs are common in the murderous countries as well.

Looks like wealthy secularism or wealthy totalitarian Islam are both good at creating peaceful states.

 

[PRmerger]

Denmark: where unhappy people kill…themselves.

Haiti: where unhappy people kill…others.

Really?

Do you have any statistics that show that depressed Haitians are the ones who are doing the killing?

You realize that article you linked to suggests Haitians are happy because they’re forced to live in the moment just to survive the misery of the daily struggle for survival, meanwhile rich westerners have time to mourn missed opportunities and worry about the future.

Yep. Forced to live in the moment, and happy, paradoxically.

Happier than some of the richest folks in the US, peculiarly.

One solution for regret and anxiety is gratitude and mindfulness. They’re both free.

This sounds like nothing but a testament to the kerygma.

How about the solution for dirty water, corrupt governments, filth, violence, chaos, natural disasters, disease, and economic collapse?

Yes. You are echoing the kerygma here, too.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Looks like wealthy secularism or wealthy totalitarian Islam are both good at creating peaceful states.

I wouldn’t suppose those “murder rates” counting only civilians would include genocides in the millions or tens of millions committed by totalitarian regimes, would they? I wouldn’t be making assertions about “totalitarian” anything until all the relevant data is in.

Neither does it include the tens and hundreds of millions of abortions of baby humans committed and permitted by “wealthy secularism.”

Wealthy Secularism: where unhappy people kill…defenseless babies.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Look at the countries with the highest murder rates: Honduras, El Salvador, Venezuela, Colombia, Mexico, Brazil, South Africa, DR Congo, South Sudan, Congo, Papua New Guinea, Nigeria, Haiti, Costa Rica, Philippines.

Look at the countries with the lowest murder rates: Japan, Singapore, Iceland, Indonesia, Austria, Switzerland, Norway, South Korea, UAE, Czech Republic, Poland, Spain, China, Saudi Arabia, Italy, Hong Kong, Sweden, Germany.

The USA is in the middle of the pack, at 3.9 per 100,000. Honduras is the highest at 84.6, most of the lowest cited above are at less than 1, and all of them are less than 2.

So, low murder rates seem to correspond to wealth and freedom, or wealth and totalitarian governments.

High murder rates seem to correspond to poverty, chaos, and superstition. Many of the most murderous countries are majority Catholic or Christian. Of course, voodoo, santeria, death cults, and other forms of shamanism and animistic beliefs are common in the murderous countries as well.

And, of course, many of the countries with the lowest murder rates are also Catholic or Christian countries: Italy, Spain, Poland, Austria, Germany, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, and Czech Republic.

Now the only thing left for you to establish is that those murders committed in “murderous countries” are predominantly being committed by believing Catholics and Christians living lives that are faithful to the teachings of the Church and/or Jesus, as the case may be.

 

[Bradski]

Er…yes. If Jesus says something that DOES make it true.

If someone reports what Jesus said, then that doesn’t make it true.

 

[PRmerger]

If someone reports what Jesus said, then that doesn’t make it true.

Fair enough.

 

[Bradski]

Is it? In what respects?

How about you define what it means to be “most Christian” and see where America stands. “most people” nominally claim about themselves, I mean.

I guess I use the same metric as you do.

And, of course, many of the countries with the lowest murder rates are also Catholic or Christian countries: Italy, Spain, Poland, Austria, Germany, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, and Czech Republic.

These are Christian countries? Just because people call themselves Christians? It seems your definition changes depending on which way the wind blows.

Personally speaking, if someone calls themself a Hindu or a Jew or a Muslim or a Christian, then I’m happy to accept that. Who am I to doubt their own beliefs.

So all the people who class themselves as Christian in the US go into the same basket. That includes you. Say hi to everyone.