Based on probability, if one had to make a choice, is it more reasonable to be an Atheist or a Theist

[Trident_H]

How can it be more reasonable to believe there is a god if there isn’t one?
It would be living an entire life in a delusion, and spreading that delusion…and even making choices that are not good for you because of that delusion.

Atheists don’t look to atheism for hope and conviction.
Not thinking something exists isn’t a basis for hope and conviction.
Atheists get hope and conviction from LIFE and all the things in it that they know, touch, experience, learn, feel, love, do, think…to give hope and conviction.

The life of the atheist seems something like a guy spending a vacation day trying to plan out renovations for his condo. He spends the morning picking out paint. And the afternoon the flooring and curtains. And finally he’s all set to get things in full swing. Except at the end of the day’s his eviction. The notice of which has been in his hand the whole time. The fact that he knew full well was coming.

So why waste the time? Why waste the time and tell us it was meaningful?

Atheists are not without hope. I don’t know how to convince the theists here of this.
There may be some atheists without hope…just as there are some theists without hope. I see these theists posting here every day. Some of their subject titles even say: “I’ve lost hope”.

I don’t understand why you and Trident are confusing and linking atheism to having a lack of hope.

.

I guess maybe you’re right. I mean I’m sure there are more than a few atheists who actually do hope there’s no afterlife. Who hope they don’t have to pay anything back that might’ve gotten swiped from the till.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . . However, such belief is a bridge too far for me. One I’ve attempted several times through action, attempting to be open, and trying to “decide” to believe. But we are all built a little different.

We definitely are.

I have no idea what you mean.

God is love.

That being the case I interpret you as saying that you tried to be caring and giving, that you tried to live as if it mattered whether you behaved in one way or another, but in the end the attempt failed to demonstrate its value.

To be a loving person is what one decides, has faith, hope and trust in.
The secular world will tell you that you can be happy if you pursue it as a primary aim. Reality will make clear the opposite.
You might be a loving person and not be so happy, but you can never be happy without love.
People are told that being someone has to do with how well you are known and regarded by others. But, it is the morally solid person who actually is somebody, humbly and truly themselves.
Money doesn’t make one happy; giving it away, giving yourself away, that will.
All the pleasures of the body will be replaced by pain; if you mean you tried to find greater satisfactions but failed, that would be unfortunate.

I could go on but you might wish to clarify because your words indicate that you attempted to live with Christ as your model and guide,l but decided it was not your cup of tea. Pity.

 

[tonyrey]

oh? Must it be a package deal?. Besides “hopeless” isn’t the same as despair. There are often more than two choices in nearly all things.

For the vast majority of people, not at all. Belief in something more seems to be something most people need or desire. Despite being a nonbeliever I do not begrudge you your belief. If it brings you hope and joy I hope you continue to believe and practice. However, such belief is a bridge too far for me. One I’ve attempted several times through action, attempting to be open, and trying to “decide” to believe. But we are all built a little different.

Have you decided to believe we exist by chance? If so why?

 

[tonyrey]

There is more. It’s not just the promise of a blissful afterlife but the ethical, moral behavior that belief in G-d encourages in this life, which not only includes personal contentment but striving for selfless, meaningful behavior for the benefit of others. This is also part of Pascal’s wager.

Irrefutable. In a Godless universe morality is merely a human convention.

 

[tonyrey]

I don’t see how atheism means hopeless to another world.
There can be no god, and still be an afterlife.
Just because many religions link a spiritual afterlife with a god, that doesn’t mean it is that way.

There can be no god and still be another world after this.

On the same note, one might say that many theists are making a more hopeless choice than, say Buddhists (or Hindus? I can’t remember now which believes in reincarnation)…because they don’t believe in reincarnation–which means many, many lives after this one.
A person who believes in reincarnation, by your logic, would be the one with the most hope because it means many lives and worlds after this one.

Belief in reincarnation is uneconomical. (Occam’s Razor.)

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

Have you decided to believe we exist by chance? If so why?

I’ve decided I do not know and that it may be unknowable in this lifetime.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

On the same note, one might say that many theists are making a more hopeless choice than, say Buddhists (or Hindus? I can’t remember now which believes in reincarnation)…because they don’t believe in reincarnation–which means many, many lives after this one.

A person who believes in reincarnation, by your logic, would be the one with the most hope because it means many lives and worlds after this one.

I don’t know any atheists who believe in reincarnation? If they did, what reason would they have to?

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

We definitely are.

I have no idea what you mean.

God is love.

That being the case I interpret you as saying that you tried to be caring and giving, that you tried to live as if it mattered whether you behaved in one way or another, but in the end the attempt failed to demonstrate its value.

Hmm, interesting you would approach it that way. I’m simply referring to actions creating a genuine belief in God. Being loving, kind, and caring have their own value to me, but it doesn’t get me closer to belief. When I donate a portion of every paycheck to charities or help the random stranger it is because I’m trying to create a better world one act at a time and because simply enough it makes me happy to be helpful.

To be a loving person is what one decides, has faith, hope and trust in.
The secular world will tell you that you can be happy if you pursue it as a primary aim. Reality will make clear the opposite.
You might be a loving person and not be so happy, but you can never be happy without love.

Can’t argue that. But none of this requires religious belief, just a desire to be good or improve the world around you one act at a time.

Money doesn’t make one happy; giving it away, giving yourself away, that will.

it isn’t the road to happiness, but it can pave the road. It also empowers greater good. For example, the Catholic church probably has a large treasury, but they also happen to be one of the biggest philanthropic organizations in the world.

I think we should be careful to state that lack of belief didn’t mean a rejection of all principles that lead to being loving, caring, and happy.

I could go on but you might wish to clarify because your words indicate that you attempted to live with Christ as your model and guide,l but decided it was not your cup of tea. Pity.

I am simply referring to the very narrow topic that acting as if God exist doesn’t always lead to believing He exist. All of the ideals and teachings are are not rejected just I lack belief, just some.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I think we should be careful to state that lack of belief didn’t mean a rejection of all principles that lead to being loving, caring, and happy.

This is right. On the other hand, lack of belief makes it significantly more probable that people can be led to be less loving, caring, and happy.

The only lie the devil loves more than “There is no God” is the lie “There is no devil.”

What better way to attack and destroy but by the cloak of invisibility?

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

Flip it in the end and see if this makes sense. You’re on a boat that’s sinking. It’s going down for sure in a measured time. Drop by drop it’s sinking. And then you’ll drown. There’s absolutely no hope of rescue.

But when you first got the boat you remember someone telling you there might be a life raft hidden on board somewhere. And enough supplies for you to make it out alive.

So tell me this. Do you make a try for the raft and supplies? Do you look high and low for that? Or do you just go ahead with waiting for the boat to sink? Being ‘pretty’ sure you didn’t see a raft. Well not anywhere near where you’re sitting at any rate.

I mean is the sunset nice and pretty enough for you to happily sink into the ocean with a sigh? Is that what you’re living for? Just to count sunsets until the last 1?

Thank you, I quite like this analogy and find it quite representative. In this analogy they pointed out a raft tucked away in a shelf. Upon closer inspection I saw it was a raincoat.

Does this mean there is no raft? No, maybe it’s somewhere inaccessible but I can’t say there was ever a raft either. The search continues but at a certain point one gives up the search and finds the joy in their sinking boat.

So convince me man. Convince me really well. Because I’d rather just slide back into my token life and let the hard glide right over me. I’d rather feel the softness of my seat at the bar of oblivion than sit on this hard bench of consequences and truth. So tell me what I want to hear. Let me now none of it matters in the end. Do your best. Make it convincing. Make sure it’s good and clear. Because I don’t want to doubt you here. I want the full reveal.

Funny thing. Some time ago I did a thought experiment. What if I had easy to comprehend 100% reliable proof of no God? Would I share it? The short answer is no mostly because whether true or not God brings happiness and order to many. Without this many see no reason for kindness or almost anything else viewed as positive.

The truth is that on some level you enjoy the hardships in the same way a husband may take a more stressful job because it supports his family. And making sure his family is taken care of is something that brings him satisfaction.

This is right. On the other hand, lack of belief makes it significantly more probable that people can be led to be less loving, caring, and happy.

Nonbelief isn’t for everyone.

 

[Bradski]

For me though? It’s not that simple. I can pick a life of pain. Or a life of flashing colors. I can go full in for a fast slide to the end. Or I can linger here in discomfort and frustration. Now give me a reason to do 1 over the other. Give me a deep reason. Why shouldn’t I just spin around in a life of drinking and drug use? Why shouldn’t I come and ‘borrow’ your stuff to pay off my bills? I mean it’s all temporary. It’s not yours for keeps. And maybe you’re getting old and forgetful anyway. Maybe you don’t really need that stuff all that much. Maybe you’ve got too much of it to carry as it is. Why should I care.

You don’t have to care. And in any case, what makes life interesting, fulfilling and enjoyable for me might not be what you need. It’s up to you.

If a belief in an afterlife gives you reason to live, then it’s all to the good. If belief in God makes you a better person, then let’s all be thankful for that. If being a Catholic means you will leave this world a better place for having been in it, then we should all be grateful. It seems to work for you. As it does for a lot of people. So don’t lose your faith.

I’d hate to think of you spiraling down in a life of drinks and drugs, doing whatever you wanted. Let’s be thankful that there is a religion that keeps you on the straight and narrow.

 

[PRmerger]

If a belief in an afterlife gives you reason to live, then it’s all to the good. If belief in God makes you a better person, then let’s all be thankful for that. If being a Catholic means you will leave this world a better place for having been in it, then we should all be grateful. It seems to work for you. As it does for a lot of people. So don’t lose your faith.

No, Bradski.

We don’t base our reality on what makes us happy.

Imagine if your adult son professed a belief in Santa Claus*. No father in his right mind would assert: If a belief in -]an afterlife /-] Santa gives you reason to live, then it’s all to the good. If belief in -]God /-] Santa makes you a better person, then let’s all be thankful for that. If being a -]Catholic /-] Santa believer means you will leave this world a better place for having been in it, then we should all be grateful. It seems to work for you. As it does for a lot of people. So don’t lose your faith.

No, you would tell him to steep his beliefs in truth, not in what gives him “a reason to live.”

*I mean the jolly fat elf who lives in the North Pole and delivers presents throughout the world on Dec 24.

Please, folks, no comments like, “But Santa does exist, in the hearts and minds of the joyous and generous parents!” or “Yes, St. Nicholas did actually exist. He was a bishop in Myra”.

 

[Bradski]

We don’t base our reality on what makes us happy.

Who mentioned happy?

 

[PRmerger]

Who mentioned happy?

Just insert “a reason to live” or “make the world a better place” or “a better person” where “happy” is.

Surely you’re not going to tell us here that if your adult son believed in Santa and it gave him a reason to live and made him a better person and made the world a better place…you’d be like:

 

[Bradski]

Just insert “a reason to live” or “make the world a better place” or “a better person” where “happy” is.

I’ll stick with what I wrote, as I am assuming that for a Christian, belief in an afterlife, a belief in God and actually being a Catholic would result in having a reason to live, would help you make the world a better place and would end up in you being a better person.

All admirable aims.

 

[PRmerger]

I’ll stick with what I wrote, as I am assuming that for a Christian, belief in an afterlife, a belief in God and actually being a Catholic would result in having a reason to live, would help you make the world a better place and would end up in you being a better person.

All admirable aims.

But you haven’t answered my question.

Would you be ok with your adult son believing in Santa Claus?

After all, it makes him have a reason to live, and makes him a better person.

Yes?

 

[Bradski]

But you haven’t answered my question.

Would you be ok with your adult son believing in Santa Claus?

After all, it makes him have a reason to live, and makes him a better person.

Yes?

I don’t think that comparisons between God and Santa are in any way beneficial to the discussion.

 

[Trident_H]

But you haven’t answered my question.

Would you be ok with your adult son believing in Santa Claus?

After all, it makes him have a reason to live, and makes him a better person.

Yes?

It’s Ok PR. Bradski was just patting me on the head a bit. I don’t mind. I mean he’s got his deep belief about nothing. And I’ve got the whole of eternity at my fingertips. So let him have his pat. It’s fine. I’ll nod and smile back. We’ll each have our little wave too. Then we can slide off past each other and carry on all friendly like.

Peace.

-Trident

 

[tonyrey]

I’ve decided I do not know and that it may be unknowable in this lifetime.

Do you live as if you don’t know?

 

[tonyrey]

Belief in reincarnation is uneconomical. (Occam’s Razor.)

Why postulate more than one life after death? Isn’t this and the next enough?