Based on probability, if one had to make a choice, is it more reasonable to be an Atheist or a Theist

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DaddyGirl said:
But many people do the above, um…religiously.…and faith does not develop. Many who have posted on this forum.

And also…what you describe can create good feelings in a person simply because they are having good connections with people and with positive beliefs about themselves, others, and the world around them…these are feelings. that a person can acquire or develop or convince oneself about almost anything if they put their mind to it.
Which is why people of different religions believe that the one they follow is the *right *one.

It still doesn’t make being a theist more reasonable, as the OP is asking.

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DaddyGirl said:
But…people also have personal experiences, enabling them to know that a God *does not *exist and is not real.
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This is the equivalent of proving a negative. Please provide specific examples of how someone can experience that God does NOT exist.
And…they have personal experiences enabling them to know with confidence that *other *gods/different religions are real and true and exist…
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If true, then so much for atheism. 😉

But again, can you provide some specific details of these experiences?

Thanks.
 
HerCrazierHalf said:
I don’t see how accepting the possibility that there is no eternal life is despair. Accepting that life is finite is not the same as nothing really matters.

Must there be something after this life for this life to be meaningful? I say the finite nature of life adds beauty and makes it that more precious.
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Working your butt off to end poverty, hunger, homelessness or cancer are great ways to stoke your self esteem, and it might make you feel good for awhile to be doing such work. But once you’re dead, you no longer experience those feelings of accomplishment.

Dead men take no pride in their life’s work, in their children and grandchildren, or in the fact that they jumped on a hand grenade to save their buddies. They have no memories of these things because they have no memories at all.

If building casinos or running for president makes you happy for a time, go for it. But don’t pretend that any of it matters because in the end, nothing does.

:nope:
 
Amen to above - and then there is the slight problem of living in a world where six million Jews are gassed to death. Where children die of horrible terminal cancers, accidents, are abandoned as newborns in McDonald’s bathroom garbage cans. I am just starting here - good luck on the peace and hope and intricate beauty of the universe. To be honest, I don’t envy those who achieve and maintain serenity in this world without faith in the supremacy of good and the reality and widespread nature of evil. To my mind this serenity is not much more than a form of self-willed death in life. Death of the soul and mind. An animal will respond to another’s suffering better than that. It will actually care more and it will recognize good and evil much better - sorry, but that is the truth.
 
DaddyGirl

Still waiting for you to identify the name of a reputable atheist who believes in reincarnation, and why he/she would hold such a belief. 🤷

In other words, what aspect of atheism justifies belief in the afterlife, never mind a succession of afterlives?
 
Anecdotally, I know one former atheist who allowed that he was partly converted to Catholicism because he was repulsed by the anti-life values of the so-called pro-choice feminists. I can only deduce that in this he found that he had become “more reasonable.”
 
So…correct me if I’m wrong, but it really seems like several members of this thread are saying something like this:

“I believe in my particular version of Christianity because I believe the only rational alternative is to view life as an unending series of meaningless sufferings ending in total despair. Human life is a pitch-black void of doom, death, and gloom…unless my understanding of Christianity is true, therefore I believe it.”

Is that about right?

Lighten up people! 😛

The ol’ “buy my product or live a life of unmitigated despair broken only by meaninglessness” sales pitch is a little tired don’t ya think?

Have you guys been doing some market research on how this approach is affecting your customer base? I don’t think it is working. Pope Francis seems to want to steer the brand in a different direction, is that working?
 
PumpkinCookie said:
So…correct me if I’m wrong, but it really seems like several members of this thread are saying something like this:

“I believe in my particular version of Christianity because I believe the only rational alternative is to view life as an unending series of meaningless sufferings ending in total despair. Human life is a pitch-black void of doom, death, and gloom…unless my understanding of Christianity is true, therefore I believe it.”

Is that about right?

Lighten up people! 😛

The ol’ “buy my product or live a life of unmitigated despair broken only by meaninglessness” sales pitch is a little tired don’t ya think?

Have you guys been doing some market research on how this approIach is affecting your customer base? I don’t think it is working. Pope Francis seems to want to steer the brand in a different direction, is that working?
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If the present life is nothing but one of gloom and doom, a “vale of tears,” then it is only fair to ask a theist who created such a life for humans? One Christian reply might be man himself because of original sin. But does G-d willfully maintain such a miserable existence for mankind? My answer is no, and that our earthly life is not meant to be miserable in the first place, for a variety of theistic reasons.
 
PumpkinCookie said:
So…correct me if I’m wrong, but it really seems like several members of this thread are saying something like this:

“I believe in my particular version of Christianity because I believe the only rational alternative is to view life as an unending series of meaningless sufferings ending in total despair. Human life is a pitch-black void of doom, death, and gloom…unless my understanding of Christianity is true, therefore I believe it.”

Is that about right?
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Crude sum up. Really crude. But I’ll bite. Because you’re talking about me here.
PumpkinCookie said:
Lighten up people! 😛
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Why? What do you have on offer instead?
PumpkinCookie said:
The ol’ “buy my product or live a life of unmitigated despair broken only by meaninglessness” sales pitch is a little tired don’t ya think?
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Until you’ve lived it. I guess. Glad life’s treated you differently. Glad you don’t need a whole catalog of reasons to stay straight and on goal. Just the idea the sun goes up at dawn’s enough, hey?
PumpkinCookie said:
Have you guys been doing some market research on how this approach is affecting your customer base? I don’t think it is working.
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So we’re pairing truth to marketing research these days? Selling salvation by the pound?
PumpkinCookie said:
Pope Francis seems to want to steer the brand in a different direction, is that working?
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You tell me. You Catholic yet? :rolleyes:
 
meltzerboy said:
If the present life is nothing but one of gloom and doom, a “vale of tears,” then it is only fair to ask a theist who created such a life for humans? One Christian reply might be man himself because of original sin. But does G-d willfully maintain such a miserable existence for mankind? My answer is no, and that our earthly life is not meant to be miserable in the first place, for a variety of theistic reasons.
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What is Judaism’s explanation for natural or unnatural suffering - death, sickness, accidents, evil? (this is a real question: I don’t know) By which I mean, why are they allowed in existence? To what end?
 
FollowChrist34 said:
What is Judaism’s explanation for natural or unnatural suffering - death, sickness, accidents, evil? (this is a real question: I don’t know) By which I mean, why are they allowed in existence? To what end?
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We don’t delve too deeply into the reasons. We believe that G-d created all, as Genesis states, including evil. We have faith that everything is for a purpose which we do not know. Some Jews do not even believe in a personal hereafter but that does not necessarily mean they do not believe in G-d. We are here, in this life, to obey G-d’s will by studying and implementing the Law and, equally important, to do good for others (as well as take care of ourselves). We are obligated to do our best in this life, and all the rest is in G-d’s hands.
 
meltzerboy said:
We don’t delve too deeply into the reasons. We believe that G-d created all, as Genesis states, including evil. We have faith that everything is for a purpose which we do not know. Some Jews do not even believe in a personal hereafter but that does not necessarily mean they do not believe in G-d. We are here, in this life, to obey G-d’s will by studying and implementing the Law and, equally important, to do good for others (as well as take care of ourselves). We are obligated to do our best in this life, and all the rest is in G-d’s hands.
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Thanks - I assume this would include the Holocaust, which is tough enough for Christians. I thought that Jews thought that was some form of punishment for not obeying God or something along those lines - but I have never been sure about that. I agree that evil as punishment is a rather unsatisfying argument, at least if you want a merciful or good God. Which is why Christians push the free will / original sin theme. But I could be delving way too deeply here.
 
Charlemagne_III said:
If they believe in God, what would be their objection to a personal hereafter?
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I don’t think they object to one; that is, they would welcome an afterlife. They just don’t believe it makes much sense scientifically speaking, I guess, or perhaps some feel we don’t deserve it. Some may also believe that only G-d is eternal, not humans. Wanting to live on eternally with G-d may be viewed as selfishness. We should just be grateful for the gift of life we were given, and not ask for the impossible.
 
meltzerboy said:
If the present life is nothing but one of gloom and doom, a “vale of tears,” then it is only fair to ask a theist who created such a life for humans? One Christian reply might be man himself because of original sin. But does G-d willfully maintain such a miserable existence for mankind? My answer is no, and that our earthly life is not meant to be miserable in the first place, for a variety of theistic reasons.
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I think life is not so gloomy for the vast majority of humanity almost all of the time.

Some people do have terrible things happen to them sometimes. Only God knows why, in my opinion.
 
Trident_H said:
Crude sum up. Really crude. But I’ll bite. Because you’re talking about me here.

Why? What do you have on offer instead?
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I have nothing to offer. You do you, no worries. 👍
Trident_H said:
Until you’ve lived it. I guess. Glad life’s treated you differently. Glad you don’t need a whole catalog of reasons to stay straight and on goal. Just the idea the sun goes up at dawn’s enough, hey?
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For me it is ideal to be both good and happy. I’d say this works out most of the time. Sometimes, it seems like I have to choose to be good rather than happy. In those moments, my faith is that goodness outweighs happiness. The sun is amazing isn’t it? We all take it for granted but wow!
Trident_H said:
So we’re pairing truth to marketing research these days? Selling salvation by the pound?
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You know, I just can’t answer this without sarcasm or potentially ban-able derision so I’ll refrain.
Trident_H said:
You tell me. You Catholic yet? :rolleyes:
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Not all sales pitches work on all people. I like Pope Francis, he seems like a very sincere and loving person. I’m a tough sell though; I do a lot of research and read every review before I buy something. Way too many negative reviews and questionable components of this product for me, I’m afraid.
 
PumpkinCookie said:
Of course not, just a different “brand strategy.” He is using different messaging by invoking compassion, mercy, tolerance, and associated ideas.
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“Compassion, mercy, tolerance” are not owned by Francis as opposed to Benedict and the other popes who came before him.

I just don’t get your point. You make an interesting insinuation and then fail to clarify.

I certainly don’t think Francis has implied there is a road to salvation through atheism.

That would be bizarre and unprecedented as a papal opinion.

The only road open to atheists for their salvation is to repudiate their refusal to acknowledge God, beg forgiveness for their sins, and strive for holiness.

Otherwise, its the official teaching of the Church and even found in Scripture that atheism is a deadly sin with a terrible consequence.
 
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