Basic Adventist Answers

[SDAgirl]

Mike_D30:

Can you cite the verses where the Trinity is explicitely taught in the Bible? The Trinity is clearly a Catholic teaching. Like I said I’ve heard Mormons mop the floor with Protestants with their idea of the Godhead. They can find plenty of support for thier idea of the Godhead using the Bible alone.

Again if this corrupted whore of babylon held Christianity together for 1500 years. Why would anything that came from them, including the Bible, since there are many many books that were left out of the Bible Canon, Catholics canonized your current canon. Yet you use this to back up the idea of the Trinity that is a Catholic teaching, and doesn’t exist in the Bible?

Again if the Catholic Church was as lost as they claim for as long as they claim, it would’ve been a case of throwing the baby out with the bath water, you would have to.

Quite a few times Jesus cited that he and the Father are one. That he would send the Holy Spirit to guide them. Let US make man in OUR image for one. These are just some. He was accused of blaspheming for that one about being “one” We agree on this issue! It was the institution of indulgences that led Luther to find issue with the church, and thus to study for Himself, hence the seperation. Nobody believes in my denomination that the Catholic church is lost. I’m so glad you asked that! Another rumor laid down!

 

[SDAgirl]

amills:

This seems to contradict what you said before - about anyone being able to interpret. If anyone is able to interpret then why would they need SDA classes? Also if they interpret differently and their different interpetation is correct then you are saying that the Catholic Church’s interpretation is correct but then the SDA interpretation is also correct. How can the Catholic Church be the Whore of Babylon and not the Whore of Babylon at the same time?

Sorry - this just doesn’t make sense to me. Can you expand on your explaination.

Thanks

Because in order to hold office in the church you do need to be Adventist. In order to be a member you do not have to believe in the Sabbath, that was the original question The Bible says, "Let every man be convinced in His own mind’ Hypothetically, if Catholic doctrine is correct, I do not believe that I will not make it to heaven because I believed with my whole heart a “LIE” and vice versa. If Adventist doctrine is correct, no good Catholic will be kept out of paradise.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

SDAgirl:

Daniel Marsh:

SDAgirl if you answered this I missed it. It has to do with Ellen White’s belief that Jesus was not omni-present.

Now, SDAgirl do you keep all 613 commands, laws of the torah or just those your church likes?

Whew! The sarcasm! We believe that the entire Mosaic law was nailed to the cross and therefore no longer applies. The 10 commandments written in stone with Gods finger were seperate from those feast days and new moon days.
If you can find the writing where it says she believed so, I wont be reading her anymore. Deal? But it cant be a snipit, it must be in context ok?

No Sarcasm in my last post. I happen to have a Jewish background. The games that SDA play to get around Col 2 simply does not hold any water.

Colossians 2
13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

The sacred times of Colossians 2:16 are called “a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.” The sequence “implies annual, monthly and weekly observances.”

This same annual, monthly and weekly sequence appears five times in the Septuagint–i.e., 2 Chron. 2:4; 31:3; Neh. 10:33; Ezek. 45:17; Hosea 2:11.

Whenever the Old Testament links the New Moon celebration with the Sabbath, as in Colossians 2:16, it is referring to the weekly Sabbath (2 Kings 4:23; 1 Chron. 23:31; 2 Chron. 2:4; Neh. 10:33; Isa. 1:13; 66:23; Ezek. 45:17; 46:1; Hosea 2:11; Amos 8:5).

When the Old Testament refers to the yearly Sabbaths, such as the Day of Atonement (Lev. 23), it calls them “a Sabbath of rest,” which the Septuagint consistently translates with the compound Greek expression Sabbata sabbaton. Colossians 2:16 simply has sabbaton, the same word which Matthew 28:1 uses for the weekly Sabbath.(13)

It has been argued that since Paul calls the Sabbath of Colossians 2:16 “a shadow of the things that were to come”, he could not be referring to the Sabbath of the Decalogue. But Colossians 1:16 has already declared that all things were made by Christ and exist for His sake. Adam himself was “a pattern of the One to come” (Rom. 5:14). Of course, the Sabbath, like all the great festivals recorded in the Old Testament, was instituted to point back to the mighty acts of God in creation or in the Exodus. But they not only pointed back; they also pointed forward to God’s new creation and new act of deliverance at the end of time. It was common for the Jews to speak of the Sabbath as a foretaste of the unending Sabbath of the age to come.(14)

Hebrews 4 is true to this tradition when it typologically links the seventh-day rest with the rest offered us in the gospel.

We cannot, therefore, avoid the conclusion that Colossians 2:16 is referring to the weekly Sabbath

quango.net/brinsmead/chap05.htm

 

[cathgal]

SDAgirl:

Quite a few times Jesus cited that he and the Father are one. That he would send the Holy Spirit to guide them. Let US make man in OUR image for one. These are just some. He was accused of blaspheming for that one about being “one” We agree on this issue! It was the institution of indulgences that led Luther to find issue with the church, and thus to study for Himself, hence the seperation. Nobody believes in my denomination that the Catholic church is lost. I’m so glad you asked that! Another rumor laid down!

Who to say that SDA didn’t get the teaching of Trinity from Catholicisim. Like any protestant denom, if it make sense, take it. I’m sure if it wasn’t for Catholicism, all’d be lost. After all, where did all protestant denoms came from. They all came from one big root of Christianity at some point, and when they branch off, they take something w/ them.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Quote:

“Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent.” (Manuscript Releases Volume Fourteen, page 23, paragraph 3)

SDAgirl if you answered this I missed it. It has to do with Ellen White’s belief that Jesus was not omni-present.

Also, see the new thread concerning ellen white’s view of christ. You will need to follow the link there and print it out to give it thoughtful response.

 

[SDAgirl]

cathgal:

Who to say that SDA didn’t get the teaching of Trinity from Catholicisim. Like any protestant denom, if it make sense, take it. I’m sure if it wasn’t for Catholicism, all’d be lost. After all, where did all protestant denoms came from. They all came from one big root of Christianity at some point, and when they branch off, they take something w/ them.

I agree thank you. To say that a protestant denom. didnt take teachings from the CC would negate the name protestant. Our ideas on the trinity are taken from the verses I named above and on faith. Like any matter of faith, it can be disputed by Show Me people. All Christians take a great deal of their belief on faith.

 

[SDAgirl]

Daniel Marsh:

SDAgirl:

No Sarcasm in my last post. I happen to have a Jewish background. The games that SDA play to get around Col 2 simply does not hold any water.

Colossians 2
13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code

, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

The above text we believe to be in reference to the Mosaic law of feasts and Sabbath DAYS like Yon Kippur and Passover. Not the 10 commandments written by gods finger and quoted so often as The Law of God.

 

[Alfie]

SDAgirl:

I have noticed alot of ideas and questions about Adventism and our beliefs. Now, dont attack me with questions because I’m not that fast a typer, but if you have any basic questions on our fundamental beliefs, go ahead and ask. Maybe we can come to a better understanding of each other.

Have you ever heard of Mark Finley? He is an ex-Catholic who is now a pastor in the SDA? I listen to him preach on Sky Angel.

 

[SDAgirl]

Daniel Marsh:

Quote:

“Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent.” (Manuscript Releases Volume Fourteen, page 23, paragraph 3)

SDAgirl if you answered this I missed it. It has to do with Ellen White’s belief that Jesus was not omni-present.

Also, see the new thread concerning ellen white’s view of christ. You will need to follow the link there and print it out to give it thoughtful response.

This statement refers to Jesus being independent of HUMANITY not of the Godhead.

 

[SDAgirl]

Alfie:

Have you ever heard of Mark Finley? He is an ex-Catholic who is now a pastor in the SDA? I listen to him preach on Sky Angel.

He is one of our best evangelists. And having come from a Catholic background, would never call Catholics un-Christian, as it has been postulated here. I enjoy him as well. Doug Batchelor and Prof. Veith are good as well.

 

[SDAgirl]

I have to go now. Be back late or in the morning. Got kiddo duties! Take care. I hope that all the questions that were answered heped you to understand that you are not thought of as any less than a child of God Anyone who says less is miss=informed.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

The above text we believe to be in reference to the Mosaic law of feasts and Sabbath DAYS like Yon Kippur and Passover. Not the 10 commandments written by gods finger and quoted so often as The Law of God.

I have no doubt that is what SDA try to make it mean. But, Paul’s opponents were Jewish and knew that he referred to the whole law of moses.

In fact, The first council on record dealt with the Law of Moses.

Acts 15
5But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

6And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

23And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

24Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

25It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

** 29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. **

The Law of Moses included the 10 commandments.

John 7:23
Now if a child can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing the whole man on the Sabbath?

In the Judaism of Paul’s day and today the ten commandments are NOT seperated from the Law of Moses. The commandments were and are viewed as part of the Law of Moses.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

The 613 laws are of the nature “thus saith the Lord” are they less valuable? In Judaism of both then and now, all the commandments had equal value.

jewfaq.org/613.htm

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

theotokos.co.za/adventism/index.html

 

[Mike_D30]

SDAgirl:

Quite a few times Jesus cited that he and the Father are one. That he would send the Holy Spirit to guide them. Let US make man in OUR image for one. These are just some. He was accused of blaspheming for that one about being “one” We agree on this issue! It was the institution of indulgences that led Luther to find issue with the church, and thus to study for Himself, hence the seperation. Nobody believes in my denomination that the Catholic church is lost. I’m so glad you asked that! Another rumor laid down!

I am a Trinitarian. I do not believe that the Bible contradicts the Trinity, and the idea is very Biblical. However to espouse that the idea is only from the Bible is erroneous. The idea of the Trinitarian Godhead is not “in the Bible” i.e. the reason you can’t cite a verse that states it, there’s no way you get to the Trinity without anyone interpreting scripture to come to that point. You can read the Bible and clearly read CHrist died and rose, no need for much interpretation as to the history. But the idea of the Trinity is very different. Case in point is how Mormons look to the same verses we do to back the idea of a plural God Godhead. And the Catholics are the ones that made the Trinity Dogma through their teachings, and discerned the idea that is now essentially a tenet of Christianity.

There are literally hundreds of books that didn’t make the cut into the Bible. The Catholic Church canonized the current canon after the council of Nicean when the Trinity was clearly taught in the Nicean Creed.

So my main point is if the Church is so corrupted, and they canonized the Bible. Wouldn’t you have to throw away the current canon and start over from zero? Looking at the gnostic texts, other epistles etc…? There are other books that were left out that contradict many “tenets” of Christianity that were adopted by Catholics. Maybe you have it all wrong?

Time to eat…

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

The Sabbath is considered to be part of the Ceremonial Law and is NOT seperated from the Law of Moses.

Catechism For Jewish Children:

The Ceremonial Law

1. What is the Ceremonial Law?

The duties which the law of God as revealed through Moses demands of us, the Israelites, in particular, as the professors of its religion.

1. Upon what is this Law founded?

Upon the history of the Mosaic Religion, and of the people of Israel before and since the promulgation of the Ten Commandments from Sinai.

1. What is the object of the ceremonies?

The constant observance of the ceremonies is intended to remind us perpetually of the events upon which they are founded, and to cause their being handed over to our children after us, to the latest generations.

“Remember his miracles that He hath done, his wonders and the Judgments of his mouth. O ye seed of Israel, his servants; the children of Jacob, his chosen people. He is the Lord our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Remember ye his covenant for ever; the word which He commanded to a thousand generations. Which He covenanted with Abraham, and likewise his oath unto Isaac. And he confirmed the same to Jacob for a statute, to Israel for an everlasting covenant.” Ps. cv. 5-10.

1. Which are the principal events of which the Ceremonial Law is to remind us?

The following three:

First, The Exodus, or removal, of our forefathers from Egypt.
Second, The Divine Revelation, and the promulgation of the Law on Sinai.
Third, The destruction of the temple at Jerusalem, and of the kingdom of Israel.

1. What observances are to remind us of the Exodus?

First, The Sabbath day, regarded as the sign of the covenant of the manifestation of God’s power in Egypt.

“And remember that thou were a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence, through a mighty hand, and by an outstretched arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the Sabbath day.” Deut. v. 15.

Second, Several others of the festivals.

1. Which are these festivals?

First, The Passover, or the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
Secondly, The Feast of Tabernacles.

1. What is the Passover?

Seven days every year we are commanded to eat unleavened bread, to the exclusion of all ordinary bread, or things made of or mixed with corn, in memory of the mighty wonders wrought in our favor, when we were redeemed from Egypt.

“Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even before the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses.–And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for on this self-same day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt; therefore shall ye observe this day, throughout your generations, as an ordinance for ever.” Exod. xii. 15, 17.

1. Which of the seven days are, properly speaking, strict festivals, when no work can be done?

jewish-history.com/catechism/ceremonial.html

After Christ’s death, the ceremonial law is no longer to be observed. Therefore "blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ" (Colossians 2:14-17). The laws consisting in ordinances, typifying Christ’s death was the one nailed on the cross, “having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace” (Ephesians 2:15). “For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect” (Hebrews 10:1).

sdarmgc.org/questions/faq_laws.htm

 

[SDAgirl]

Daniel Marsh:

The Sabbath is considered to be part of the Ceremonial Law and is NOT seperated from the Law of Moses.

Catechism For Jewish Children:

jewish-history.com/catechism/ceremonial.html

sdarmgc.org/questions/faq_laws.htm

Many of these quotes are from JEWISH law and not Adventist doctrine. We do not view them (the 10 commandments) as the same law (Mosaic law) as the Jews and other religions do. That is just something we have to agree to disagree on that one as it is a doctrinal difference. The Main point is: 10 commandments written in stone and called the Law of God. Mosaic law: wasnt
Hope that helped.

 

[SDAgirl]

Mike_D30:

I am a Trinitarian. I do not believe that the Bible contradicts the Trinity, and the idea is very Biblical. However to espouse that the idea is only from the Bible is erroneous. The idea of the Trinitarian Godhead is not “in the Bible” i.e. the reason you can’t cite a verse that states it, there’s no way you get to the Trinity without anyone interpreting scripture to come to that point. You can read the Bible and clearly read CHrist died and rose, no need for much interpretation as to the history. But the idea of the Trinity is very different. Case in point is how Mormons look to the same verses we do to back the idea of a plural God Godhead. And the Catholics are the ones that made the Trinity Dogma through their teachings, and discerned the idea that is now essentially a tenet of Christianity.

There are literally hundreds of books that didn’t make the cut into the Bible. The Catholic Church canonized the current canon after the council of Nicean when the Trinity was clearly taught in the Nicean Creed.

So my main point is if the Church is so corrupted, and they canonized the Bible. Wouldn’t you have to throw away the current canon and start over from zero? Looking at the gnostic texts, other epistles etc…? There are other books that were left out that contradict many “tenets” of Christianity that were adopted by Catholics. Maybe you have it all wrong?

Time to eat…

Protestants only had a problem with Catholic indulgences to start with.i.e. Luther The Bible is not what they had issue with, it was the interpretation by the mother church. Hence the protest. The validity of the Bible has never been in question for Adventism.

 

[Mike_D30]

SDAgirl:

Protestants only had a problem with Catholic indulgences to start with.i.e. Luther The Bible is not what they had issue with, it was the interpretation by the mother church. Hence the protest. The validity of the Bible has never been in question for Adventism.

My point is why not? (and you guys go way past most “Protestants” with your ideas).

If the Church was corrupted at the time of Constantine, and the Canon put together after the corruption, how can you trust the canon from a corrupted pagan Church? Not only the Canon but essentially every major tenet that Christians practice today from a Church controlled by emperors of pagan Rome?

 

[SDAgirl]

Daniel Marsh:

The 613 laws are of the nature “thus saith the Lord” are they less valuable? In Judaism of both then and now, all the commandments had equal value.

jewfaq.org/613.htm

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

Adventism is not Judaism. We just believe that the 10 commandments are still valid and keep the Sabbath as the Jews do. We do not have the same doctrine.