C
ckempston
Guest
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that many non-Baptismal regenerists hold to: If there are exceptions, it must be OK to ignore the normative method instituted by God.
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P
panoikei
Guest
Both And.
If you are an adult, of course you must believe before you are baptised. That is true. But infant baptism falls under entire households being baptised. This is what originally caused me to fall away from Catholicism. However, many years after I got wet I realized the real reason none of us can have a truly believers baptism. I know several folks that have been “baptized” many times… because that theology don’t work. See Bruce Sullivan. He went from faith only [Baptist] to a mandatory understanding of baptism from ’ Baptism doth now save you" [Church of Christ]. Now he’s Catholic and describes this so well in her newest book. The last 1/3rd of the book is apologetics, something that COCs thrive off of…to convert all of you non-church of chrysters that are bound to eternal damnation. Oh…that’s what I used to believe…I’m Catholic now …so you have a chance now. Just don’t get to confident about it because we need th fullness of the faith…not bits and peaces of it mixed with heresy…not hear say…heresy…
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SyCarl
Guest
I do not say that we should ignore baptism. We should baptize our children. We should be baptized, not because the water baptism save but to obey Jesus.
Again I ask how the Old Testament saints were saved without baptism? Has God added an additional requirement to the faith required of them?
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panoikei
Guest
Would you show me where the earliest Christians after scripture was written, before it was published at Ignatius Press, where it says this. Show me where they said baptism is not necessary. Show me where it says we ONLY have to obey…obeying requires you to be baptized. Scripture also tells you why. So why make up stuff to justify not… I wonder if what you are saying is semantics… I had a baptist friend that explained what he said “OSAS” really meant. And if what he said was true, then it really meant that if someone became a Christian accepting Jesus in his/her heart and later renounced it all…then he was never truly saved then because he didn’t really give himself over to Christ. Strange still but significantly differently and frankly quite made up. That’s what happens when groups begin to pull away from the Church teaching and authority.
All I have to say I hope you are at least baptized and get your children baptized too. Graces will come to you. I even noticed it in my own children, none of whom had an official infant baptism…in fact I baptized my oldest son, a teen now, when he was 9. What is the age of beleif? [sorry I’ll take that to another thread]
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ckempston
Guest
Ok, once again:
Peter, the Apostle: Baptism **does **save you.
SyCarl: Baptism **does not **save you.
Can you please explain how you can justify making a statement that is explicitly contradicted by a plain passage of scripture?
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SyCarl
Guest
As I said in an early post I am a paedobaptist, not because that water baptism saves but because it is the covenant sign just as circumcision was under the Old Testament. The Apostles spoke to Jews who would well understand from the Old Testament what Peter meant when he said the promise is to you and your children. Infant boys under the Old Covenant were circumcized to show they were part of the Covenant People. In the Sacrament of Baptism we claim the Covenant promises for ourselves and our children altough we may be actually saved before or after the ceremony.
Again I ask has the unchangeable God changed? Did Old Testament figures such as Abraham, Ruth and David require only faith while we require faith and baptism? Even if something more was required under the Old Testament, would that not be recognizing a form of dispensationalism where the requirements for salvation differ from period to period?
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panoikei
Guest
This is so off…I just won’t elaborate… But I do want to say the Baptism of the Spirit as we read in scripture is Confirmation.
If someone gets baptized and not really beleiving…and later begins to beleive, then they are already baptized and need not be concerned of that part. Baptism in the valid formula results in an indelible mark on the eternal soul. The Eastern part of the Church [Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic] baptize, confirm [chrismation] and commune infants. The didache gives the prefered method as submerging in “living water” [cold running water]…but it continues and later states that pouring 3 times in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit is also valid. Nothing is mentioned of beleivers baptism. But they do tell you to fast so many days before it… earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html
It’s now beleived that this was written early early. I’ve seen 70 AD as preferred. But as you profess by your claims… Jesus couldn’t handle creating His Church through the Apostles… they weren’t up to it.
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SyCarl
Guest
I do not say baptism does not save us. It is the form of that baptism. I say true baptism is inward and spiritual, whether it is called circumcision of the heart as in the Old Testament or Baptism of the Spirit as in the New Testament. As I quoted from Bede, different signs but same inward working. So I am not disagreeing with Peter but I am also agreeing with Hebrews 11 which gives a litany of those who were saved by faith without baptism, and Paul who diffentiates circumcision of the flesh from circumcision of the heart. I also give meaning to each of the Gospels that give a distinction between baptism in water and baptism in the spirit.
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SyCarl
Guest
I would agree entirely with this statement but how has baptism saved them if they are not saved until they actually believe? If an unbeliever is baptised and dies does he go to Heaven? If not, how has that baptism saved him.
So far nobody seems to have given me an explanation of how or why those under the Old Testament could be saved without water baptism or why Paul’s differentiation between outward and inward circumcision does not apply to baptism.
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ckempston
Guest
Baptism is outward, but God does the work “inwardly”, as evidenced by every time it is performed in the New Testament. See the book of Acts. Of course those in the Old Testament were saved without Baptism. It wasn’t instituted yet. There are no extra “forms” of Baptism. Baptism involves water whenever someone is converted in the New Testament. Paul tells us that there is “one Baptism.” Hebrews was written to people who were already saved and baptized, so of course the issue would be “faith.” You’re missing the context of that the Epistles were written to people who were already baptized believers. The authors aren’t going to talk much about baptism in reference to maintaining the readers’ faith, but they DO mention it, and wherever they do, there is no reason to believe it is other than the outward water baptism practiced in Acts, and it is always associated with salvation.
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SyCarl
Guest
Why does God institute a requirement for us that was not required of the Old Testament? Why has God changed?
Was Cornelius and his household saved when the Holy Spirit descended on them or when they were subsequently baptized with water?
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ckempston
Guest
God didn’t change. He didn’t change when he instituted circumcision with Abraham. He didn’t change when he instituted the Levitical priesthood. Where are you getting this idea that because something changes about the practices of God’s people, that God has somehow changed?
By your reasoning, God shouldn’t have instituted circumcision. It wasn’t just a symbol, it was a requirement. Not circumcised? Not a Jew, no matter how much you believe. Not Baptized? Not a Christian, no matter how much you believe.
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SyCarl
Guest
So a woman under the Old Testament was not a Jew because she was not circumcised? And those before Abraham were not saved because circumcision had not been instituted yet? If God changes what He requires of us has He not changed. But He hasn’t changed. I believe that He is consistent and requires nothing more from us than He did from those before us.
Again I will quote Paul as to who was or wasn’t a true Jew.
I believe the same statement can be made about Christians and baptism.
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
We have to let Paul speak about Christian Baptism when he is speaking about Christian Baptism and his statements run completely counter to a symbolic interpretation.
C
ckempston
Guest
Circumcision wasn’t a requirement for women, obviously. I can clarify my statement to say “men,” but my point stands. Not a circumcised man? Not a Jew. Period. Doesnt’ change my point a whit.
Paul was speaking about those who claimed you had to be circumcised first to be a Christian. He obviously rejected this. It has nothing to do with Baptism.
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ckempston
Guest
Exactly. I don’t understand this application of passages that are totally irrelevant to Baptism. If you want to know about Baptism, look up the passages on Baptism.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Boy; after reading all these posts, I have gotten very confused between baptism, confirmation and circumcision. Please forgive my intro-commentary here.
The old covenant: Circumcision given to each Male was entry into the covenant of God, the family members of the circumcised Father or Male carried with them the women in the covenant with God. These of the covenant had to keep the commandments Law of God in order to live. The removal of the foreskin set them a people apart for God as an outward sign.
But all these died. Jesus in his death, went down to set the captives free from the old covenant, nobody does not get saved only through Jesus Christ. It is here that the old covenant saints are saved from sheol, not the old covenant for it foreshadowed of what is to come; Jesus.
New covenant: Jesus institutes water baptism for the entry into the new covenant kingdom of God. In Baptism saves you now, because the baptised die to self in water baptism, raised up in Jesus Christ and recieve the anointing Oil of the Holy Spirit that never runs out. Whether you are an infant, or adult, or handicapped, this grace from God that saves you now is unmerited by anyone. Baptism can never be removed it is the seal of the living God placed on the baptised forehead.
The sacrament of baptism is the finger of God touching humanity. Now to when one comes to the age of reason, when instructed in the ways of the Lord, can acknowledge his faith and experience the conversion of the heart, which can only be done by the Holy spirit, and the will of the baptised. This Catholics call sacrament of confirmation, not to be confused with water baptism which is entry into the kingdom of God, Confirmation is the baptised confirmed heart to serve the Lord in life.
cont.
The old covenant: Circumcision given to each Male was entry into the covenant of God, the family members of the circumcised Father or Male carried with them the women in the covenant with God. These of the covenant had to keep the commandments Law of God in order to live. The removal of the foreskin set them a people apart for God as an outward sign.
But all these died. Jesus in his death, went down to set the captives free from the old covenant, nobody does not get saved only through Jesus Christ. It is here that the old covenant saints are saved from sheol, not the old covenant for it foreshadowed of what is to come; Jesus.
New covenant: Jesus institutes water baptism for the entry into the new covenant kingdom of God. In Baptism saves you now, because the baptised die to self in water baptism, raised up in Jesus Christ and recieve the anointing Oil of the Holy Spirit that never runs out. Whether you are an infant, or adult, or handicapped, this grace from God that saves you now is unmerited by anyone. Baptism can never be removed it is the seal of the living God placed on the baptised forehead.
The sacrament of baptism is the finger of God touching humanity. Now to when one comes to the age of reason, when instructed in the ways of the Lord, can acknowledge his faith and experience the conversion of the heart, which can only be done by the Holy spirit, and the will of the baptised. This Catholics call sacrament of confirmation, not to be confused with water baptism which is entry into the kingdom of God, Confirmation is the baptised confirmed heart to serve the Lord in life.
cont.
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
cont.
Baptism was always taught as a regeneration, a new creation, a new creature in Jesus Christ as Paul puts it in scripture. The baptised are no longer of the world but are in the world.
With this baptismal gift of grace from God to become children of the living God, from here is where the confirmed in the Holy Spirit work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Remembering that the baptised already have the anointing of the Holy Spirit.
No one comes to the father except by Jesus who is our Mediator between God and the human race. Only baptism gives entry to become children of the living God. For by the faith of the male circumcision all others (females) entered into the covenant with God, so it is when Mary and Joseph circumcised Jesus when he was an infant, Jesus did these things inorder to fulfill the old covenant laws of God not change them. So it is when Catholic parents baptise the promise for their children also, by their faith to become children of God.
The christian baptism is the baptism of the fire that never burns out. The baptised are given the seal of God upon their foreheads in the sign of the “Tau” Tee, or cross. This is a fulfillment from the prophet Ezekiel. Here is Revelations to confirm this sign; No angel can ever harm the children of God who have this baptismal seal on their foreheads, see Revelations.
Revelations 7:2
Then I saw another angel come up from the East, 3 holding the seal of the living God. He cried out in a loud voice to the four angels who were given power to damage the land and the sea,
3
“Do not damage the land or the sea or the trees **until we put the seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” **
Peace
Baptism was always taught as a regeneration, a new creation, a new creature in Jesus Christ as Paul puts it in scripture. The baptised are no longer of the world but are in the world.
With this baptismal gift of grace from God to become children of the living God, from here is where the confirmed in the Holy Spirit work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Remembering that the baptised already have the anointing of the Holy Spirit.
No one comes to the father except by Jesus who is our Mediator between God and the human race. Only baptism gives entry to become children of the living God. For by the faith of the male circumcision all others (females) entered into the covenant with God, so it is when Mary and Joseph circumcised Jesus when he was an infant, Jesus did these things inorder to fulfill the old covenant laws of God not change them. So it is when Catholic parents baptise the promise for their children also, by their faith to become children of God.
The christian baptism is the baptism of the fire that never burns out. The baptised are given the seal of God upon their foreheads in the sign of the “Tau” Tee, or cross. This is a fulfillment from the prophet Ezekiel. Here is Revelations to confirm this sign; No angel can ever harm the children of God who have this baptismal seal on their foreheads, see Revelations.
Revelations 7:2
Then I saw another angel come up from the East, 3 holding the seal of the living God. He cried out in a loud voice to the four angels who were given power to damage the land and the sea,
3
“Do not damage the land or the sea or the trees **until we put the seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” **
Peace
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
What is amazing to me is that verses which have nothing to do with Baptism are brought in to be used against baptismal regeneration, but when passages explicitly state the salvific nature of Baptism, the response is “that has nothing to do with water baptism”!
C
ckempston
Guest
Exactly. The idea that water Baptism is not the means by which God saves us, adds us to his church, forgives us of our sins, and gives us the indwelling Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) is an idea totally unknown in Christian history until very recently.What is amazing to me is that verses which have nothing to do with Baptism are brought in to be used against baptismal regeneration, but when passages explicitly state the salvific nature of Baptism, the response is “that has nothing to do with water baptism”!
I’ve found that there are several misconceptions people have who hold to the non-regenerate view of Baptism:
That an exception to the rule negates the rule (FALSE).
That the phrase “faith alone” is found in scripture (FALSE).
That Baptism is a work one does (FALSE).
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