I apologize. I should have written “this is an error”, or better, wait till I had time to post the following passage. I meant no offense.
How can you measure this? If the sacrament does convey grace, how is one to know that such grace is not at work from the first?
Well, we see from the sermon in Acts, and elsewhere, that the first action of faith is to have baptism. Why separate the two?
Is the Truth to be defined by the way “most Protestants feel”?
1)Please show the scripture that supports the definition you have given here.
Please give the scripture you are quoting from here.
And how is one to know when one has been “crucified” with Christ? What about being “buried” with Him?
So, when Peter told the visitors to Jerusalem how to enter a spiritual life in which they would be continually sanctified by God he was mistaken?
Well, this makes sense, since they were all adults. At the time, believers did not have children to bring forth. It was not until the Lord did not return immediately, and the believers realized that they might be on earth for some time that they wanted their children to be brought into the New Covenant. Baptism replaced circumcision as an initiation rite into Christ.
Thank your for participating.
Actually, this may be highly disputable. When you consider 75+ million Anglicans, 70 million Lutherans, and a smattering of other Protestant traditions that also teach baptismal regeneration.
Being washed in the blood has nothing to do with the human response to the gospel message. The entire human race was justified by Christ’s atoning work on the cross and is not dependent on repentance or a change in moral or spiritual character. The change and repentance occurs as a result of Christ’s work for sinners when the person receives faith in Christ. Since human beings are dead in sin faith must be given to them. Faith is given through the preaching of the Word; Baptism is a visible preaching of the Word, therefore, the Spirit is at work in it and applies the Gospel to the person being baptised.
You will not find the word represents associated with any passage regarding Baptism. Baptism doesn’t “represent” the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Christ: It is the life, death, burial and resurrection of Christ applied to the Old Adam of each sinner who is baptised.
Our relationship to God doesn’t sanctify us. His relationship to us sanctifies us. This relationship is entered into in Baptism. Each day that we pray and remember our entrance into eternal life at Baptism, we grow in sanctification. It is not something that occurs and is discarded, but is a daily dying to self and rising to new life in Christ.
Find me a passage of scripture where it says Christian Baptism represents anything. You can’t. Your explanation is totally unsupported biblically. I also note that your “scripture reference” has nothing to do with Baptism. Galatians 2:20 has nothing whatsoever to do with Baptism. If you want to know about Baptism, look up the scriptures THAT DISCUSS BAPTISM.
lol) Correct me if I am wrong but it is my understanding that in the Catholic faith a person receives salvation through the act of Baptism, even if that person is an infant and has no conscious knowledge of God, Christ, or the Holy Spirit. In my protestant faith, redemption occurs after a person is called by God to receive Christ as their Lord and Saviour. Once a person acknowledges and commits his/her life to making Jesus Christ Lord they then receive the Holy Spirit. They can then be baptised as an act of obedience through Christ’s example and as directed by the Apostles in the Word.Yeah what would 2000 years of Church history know? Instead lets become our own un-official pope and say that our personal interpretation is best. Thats what happens when you have no Authority. All these different denominations say they all ask the Holy Spirit to interpret this verse or that verse for them and they all come up with different answers. If you want the Holy Spirit to answer you, look to the interpretation of the Church that Christ established in 33 AD. For 1500 years, ALL Christians believed that baptism was essential for salvation and Scripture obviously backs it up. Now, Protestants who think they know better than Christ’s Church, appear on the scene and mutiliate Bible verses that point-blank tell you that baptism does save you just to match the errant teachings of their Protestant church. Jesus’s last prayer was for all of us to be one as He and the Father are one…Jesus only established one church (Matthew 16:18) and if you’re not part of the church that Christ established and can trace its lineage back to Peter, you’re not a part of the one true faith. You are Christian, that is true, because the Catholic Church and its supreme Authority from Jesus Christ Himself says you are our separated brothers and sisters in Christ but it must pierce Jesus’s heart every single second that another splinter group is formed and moves further away from the one and only Church that Jesus Christ established and that is the Catholic Church! When the Scriptures say that baptism saves you; BELIEVE GOD. When the Scriptures say my flesh is meat indeed and my blood is drink indeed; BELIEVE GOD. Never take your Authority-less interpretation and assume that its okay because its the way YOU feel about Scripture. There is only one true faith, there is only one true interpretation, there is only one true church and that is the Catholic Church. God bless you all.quote from TriuneUnity "Being washed in the blood has nothing to do with the human response to the gospel message. "
(Revelation 7:14 uses this terminology)
Being washed in the blood is a picture analogy of what happens when someone receives redemption of sins through Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross. This is the first step in being able to enter into God’s holy presence. This parallels the act of sacrifice of animals on the altar that the Jewish Priests perfomed in the tabernacle as set up by God through Moses while in the desert.
As you all probably know, Jesus was the final sacrifice. There was no more need for Jewish sacrifices under the New Covenant.
Thus, we are washed in the blood of Christ as he was/is our Sacrificial Lamb. (Hebrews 8,9,10)
quote fromTriuneUnity:
“Baptism doesn’t “represent” the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Christ: It is the life, death, burial and resurrection of Christ applied to the Old Adam of each sinner who is baptised”
I understand why you would be so passionate with your statement comparing my terminology “represents” with your usage of the word “is” when referring to Baptism. You are right. **Spiritual **Baptism definitely is the life, death, burial and resurrection of Christ in us. The death of Christ and the death of my flesh…the burial of my flesh as Christ was buried…and the resurrection of Christ in me. I have no claim on myself and the Holy Spirit now takes up residence in my being. I walk in the Spirit. (Galatians 5:16 is what I am talking about not some form of Gnostism guanophore sorry if you took it wrong.)
In my personal faith I do not believe the act of Baptism performs the miracle of redemption and sanctification that you do. This is a huge difference in our faiths. ** Baptism**, for me, is first a spiritual miracle of God that takes place prior to the actual physical act of being baptised because I have received Christ as Lord and Saviour of my life. Thus: Spiritual Baptism happens first and then a physical Baptism, representing this Spiritual Baptism, can be performed.
In my faith, baptism represents Galations 2:20 (for ckempston).
I live by this scripture every day and have it imprinted in my heart and mind:
“I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I (no more flesh) but Christ liveth in me (spiritual life): I live by faith of a Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”
I must tell you my faith is my own and one that I have “worked out” since I was seven. I now have teenage children so that tells you my age. lol.
(I know there are many Protestant faiths that still practice infant baptism so I will no longer use the language “most protestants believe” when I try to explain the Protestant view on baptism. Sorry if I offended anyone, that was not my intention. There aren’t very many Anglicans here where I live.)
I can understand if my beliefs offend you if you are of the Catholic faith. I have studied the Catholic faith and understand your views and also why you would be confused with my faith. I can only explain our differences like this (or at least I will give it a try
Just give it some thought and prayer, read the scripture, and ask God to show you His truth. That’s what I do.
Peace and God’s grace to you all.
I wasn’t disputing the terminology. I was disputing your use of the terminology in relation to the action of human faith and repentance. We are not washed by the blood when we repent and believe. We repent and believe because we’ve been washed by the blood. For those of us who were baptised prior to a “decision” (as if such a thing were possible) that is when we were united to Christ’s death and resurrection and thus washed.
The differentation that you make between water baptism in the name of the Triune God and Spirit Baptism is a distinction that Scripture doesn’t make. The Spirit Baptizes when the water is poured and the Word of God is spoken.
In order for your viewpoint to be that which Scripture teaches I would like you to establish three things from Scripture:
Gee, maybe it’s because many of the Protestants on this board believe in Baptismal Regeneration?Ok, I’ve been waiting for a while now.
Still, no Protestant has given me a verse-by-verse rebuttal.
This is an antisacramental viewpoint - a reformation “spin” created to remove believers from the practice of sacraments.
No, but you will find the words “participation” and “partakers”. We are spirituallyjoined with Christ in Baptims to his death, burial and resurrection. This is Apostolic teaching.
I agree that through Baptism we enter into the Body of Christ. People of faith who come for Baptism have already developed a relationship with God, or they would not come for Baptism. I also agree that Baptism is something that is to be lived daily. This is Apostolic Teaching!
How about you go back to the original post, click on “reply” then go through those scriptures for us one by one, and show us how they have nothing to do with Baptism?
Give me a break. Now you’re just disagreeing with me for the sake of it because I’m not agreeing with all your Catholic doctrines. The poster I was responding to was using Galatians 2:20 to justify being justified apart from Baptism because it doesn’t use the word Baptism. She was implying since this passage doesen’t mention Baptism, she’s justified without it. That’s not true, and I actually agree with your interpretation that one participates with the death, burial, and resurrection at Baptism; this passage just does not say it explicitly, hence it is often abused by non-Baptismal-regenerists.
I agree with this statement. However, the Apostles taught that Baptism is the means by which we receive this redemption, and participate in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.
We are washed if we participate in the sacrifice…
I sit corrected.
People do not come to the waters of Baptism unless and until they are moved by the Spirit to do so. However, since the Apostles taught that there is only ONE BAPTISM, we don’t separate the action of the Spirit that draws one into the water from the seal on the soul that occurs in the water.
Glory to God!
Just for the record, I am not offended or confused.
We consider Baptism to be the entrance Rite into the Kingdom, replacing circumcision, yes. It is the beginning of the faith walk. However, your phrase “receives salvation” probably represents a less mature understanding of salvation than we have, since we realize that our salvation is not completed until we are in heaven.I can only explain our differences like this (or at least I will give it a try
We see this, commonly called “believers baptism” in scripture.
I don’t know what you’re arguing against here. How does a statement of belief in baptismal regeneration remove believers from sacramental practice? An adult who decides to be baptized is already converted, and therefore, his will conforms to Christ’s command to be baptized. No argument about “will” involved here.
Yes, God desires all to be saved. Those who do not hear the gospel cannot turn to Christ. “Faith comes by hearing.” The insinuation is that men may be saved without conscious knowledge of Christ. That is universalistic drivel. The deadness that describes our condition does prevent us from choosing the good because none of our actions are good without faith. “Without faith, it is impossible to please God.”
I baptize you in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit doesn’t preach the Word? I think you’re arguing with me for the sake of argument LOL
Not sure what your argument here is guan. What about my statement says otherwise?
I was referring mainly to infants who receive faith through Baptism prior to an adult “decision.” It is true that adults are already converted.I agree that through Baptism we enter into the Body of Christ. People of faith who come for Baptism have already developed a relationship with God, or they would not come for Baptism. I also agree that Baptism is something that is to be lived daily. This is Apostolic Teaching!
Sorry, man. So far you’ve only had two Protestants who reject baptismal regeneration post in the thread. Perhaps they couldn’t refute your original postThis is going off subject. My OP was to get a verse-by-verse rebuttal of the pertinent Scriptures I mentioned within the OP.
Probably right. I love it when Protestants take a high view of the Eucharist and Baptism. Maybe someday a majority of them will get there sacramental senses and worldview order.Sorry, man. So far you’ve only had two Protestants who reject baptismal regeneration post in the thread. Perhaps they couldn’t refute your original post
I am sorry that you find the Apostolic teaching to be “insinuation”, and that you find St. Paul to spout “universalistic drivel”. But, he was clear that those who do by nature what the law requires are a law unto themselves. God is able to reveal Himself to anyone,anywhere, by any means, and reveals Himself to indiginous persons that have never heard of Christ. God is not bound by time and space, as humans are.
I agree that faith is needed to please God. However, He made us in His image and likeness, and we are able to choose the good. The wounded nature that we incur as the result of the Fall does not prevent us from choosing the good.
This does not make any sense to me. How can an infant “receive faith”? faith is, among other things, an act of the will.
If only they could keep it.
“All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” Who are non-believers going to pray to for forgiveness? Brahma?
Besides the fact that this sounds utterly Pelagian… do infants in baptism have faith?