G
guanophore
Guest
Their conscience?
Everyone is judged by the light they have been given.
No. How is that Pelagian?
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T
TriuneUnity
Guest
Rom. 8:6-8: For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.Their conscience?
Rom. 1:18-23: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.Everyone is judged by the light they have been given.
Second Council of Orange (529), 5th Canon: If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism – if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, “And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). And again, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.No. How is that Pelagian?
G
guanophore
Guest
You are pre-supposing, when you apply this passage to those who have never heard the gospel, that it is not possible to live by the Spirit even when one has not known Christ. This is not the case.Rom. 8:6-8: For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
What you are quoting here is from a passage on how God has revealed Himself to Pagans. Interestingly, you have quoted the section on those who reject God, and the results thereof. There are people who do percieve the deity of God who have not heard or understood the Gospel, but they do recognize Him in the things that have been made. When they do honor Him as God, they are judged by their own conscience, and what has been revealed to them.Rom. 1:18-23: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Is that what you think St. Paul is saying ?Second Council of Orange (529), 5th Canon: If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism – if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, “And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). And again, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.
Rom 2:12-16
12 All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
Do you think that an enlightened conscience can come from anywhere except God?
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
Can you show one section of Scripture wherein the Spirit is given to non-believers? To continue with the passage quoted hereYou are pre-supposing, when you apply this passage to those who have never heard the gospel, that it is not possible to live by the Spirit even when one has not known Christ. This is not the case.
Rom. 8:9-10: You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Paul is contrasting those who have received the gospel with those who have not. The work of the Spirit is inextricably linked to Christ. Without Christ, the Spirit will never be received.
Well, Gentiles who were not aware of Judaism, so yes, pagans. Paul doesn’t say that only a select portion of them have dishonored God. He states quite emphatically that all non-believers, by the simple fact that they do not honor the God of Scripture, have rejected Him. The evidence for God is irrefutable to the pagans, but they reject Him in favor of gods of their own making. The situation is no different for modern Hindu’s, Buddhists, or African tribesmen. In their spirits they know God exists, but they pervert the natural knowledge given to all men.What you are quoting here is from a passage on how God has revealed Himself to Pagans. Interestingly, you have quoted the section on those who reject God, and the results thereof. There are people who do percieve the deity of God who have not heard or understood the Gospel, but they do recognize Him in the things that have been made. When they do honor Him as God, they are judged by their own conscience, and what has been revealed to them.
Is that what you think St. Paul is saying ?
Rom 2:12-16
12 All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
All men have received the law in their conscience. All men knowingly violate that Law. Without the grace given by Christ for forgiveness, they will die eternally in their breaking of the law. There is no other name under heaven by which men may be saved.Do you think that an enlightened conscience can come from anywhere except God?
G
guanophore
Guest
This question does not make any sense to me. We are discussion baptism for the remission of sins. I made the point that God has created mankind in His own image and likeness. That means that we have free will, and conscience. We can choose the right, or the wrong.Can you show one section of Scripture wherein the Spirit is given to non-believers? To continue with the passage quoted here
I also made the point that God is not bound by the sacrament of baptism. God can remit the sins of anyone He chooses. Along those lines, I made the point that there are people in the world who have an innate sense of the divinity of God because it was given to us at creation. Some such persons do by nature what the law requires, and are a law unto themselves.
Perhaps your definition of “Christ” is just too small? Perhaps you cannot see the Spirit of Christ at work in Pagans when their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them? Perhaps you do not see Christ at work in the world prior to the time He was incarnated? There are various levels of intimacy with God through the Spirit. Some have little light, some have much.Rom. 8:9-10: You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Paul is contrasting those who have received the gospel with those who have not. The work of the Spirit is inextricably linked to Christ. Without Christ, the Spirit will never be received.
No, Paul does not say that. On the contrary, he proclaimed in Athens that he recognized they were religious people, and that they honored the “unknown God”. Paul proclaimed to them that which they honored, but knew not. God is not bound by the Scripture, either, and can reveal Himself without it, and did so prior to the book of Romans ever being written.Code:Well, Gentiles who were not aware of Judaism, so yes, pagans. Paul doesn't say that only a select portion of them have dishonored God. He states quite emphatically that all non-believers, by the simple fact that they do not honor the God of Scripture, have rejected Him.
Some do, some don’t.The evidence for God is irrefutable to the pagans, but they reject Him in favor of gods of their own making.
Well, this is a very prejudicial statement to make. It seems to me very narrow minded, and makes God weak. It says that God is not abl.e to manifest Himself to those who have not heard of the New Testament. To think that everyone who does not know God the way you do is “perverted” seems quite dangerous to me.The situation is no different for modern Hindu’s, Buddhists, or African tribesmen. In their spirits they know God exists, but they pervert the natural knowledge given to all men.
That is not what Paul says. He says that some people keep that law, and therefore are judged according to their choices, based on the revelation they have through their conscience.All men have received the law in their conscience. All men knowingly violate that Law. Without the grace given by Christ for forgiveness, they will die eternally in their breaking of the law. There is no other name under heaven by which men may be saved.
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
I agree with your basic premises here. That Baptism is for the remission of sins. Where we disagree is, is that for those who are not Baptised, you have stated faith in Christ crucified for sinners is not necessary. They can follow the Law and be saved. I believe this is unbiblical, and goes against the grain of Christian teaching for 2000 years.This question does not make any sense to me. We are discussion baptism for the remission of sins. I made the point that God has created mankind in His own image and likeness. That means that we have free will, and conscience. We can choose the right, or the wrong.
I also made the point that God is not bound by the sacrament of baptism. God can remit the sins of anyone He chooses. Along those lines, I made the point that there are people in the world who have an innate sense of the divinity of God because it was given to us at creation. Some such persons do by nature what the law requires, and are a law unto themselves.
No. I restrict Christ in the sense that He has revealed how He works. The conflicting thoughts of pagans is due to their natural, God given conscience. The Spirit does not work immediately, like a bolt of lightning from the sky. He works through means; the proclamation of the Word, and the administration of the Sacraments. That is how the Spirit gives faith in Christ.Perhaps your definition of “Christ” is just too small? Perhaps you cannot see the Spirit of Christ at work in Pagans when their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them? Perhaps you do not see Christ at work in the world prior to the time He was incarnated? There are various levels of intimacy with God through the Spirit. Some have little light, some have much.
He reveals Himself in nature, as the Lawgiver and Creator of the world. He reveals Himself in the Gospel as the Savior, and Redeemer of fallen humanity. “Religious” does not mean “justified.” The Baal worshippers were “religious.” That didn’t stop the wrath of God from falling on them. To divorce God’s saving work apart from His revealed Word is to fall into the same trap as gnosticism, enthusiasm, and pentecostalism.No, Paul does not say that. On the contrary, he proclaimed in Athens that he recognized they were religious people, and that they honored the “unknown God”. Paul proclaimed to them that which they honored, but knew not. God is not bound by the Scripture, either, and can reveal Himself without it, and did so prior to the book of Romans ever being written.
Truth can often be discomforting and “dangerous” to those who think along the lines of the world; a theology of smile and worship the trees, God loves you anyway, is more dangerous to uphold. Both for the souls of those trapped in error, and for Christians who think Christ does not have to be acknowledged for salvation.Well, this is a very prejudicial statement to make. It seems to me very narrow minded, and makes God weak. It says that God is not able to manifest Himself to those who have not heard of the New Testament. To think that everyone who does not know God the way you do is “perverted” seems quite dangerous to me.
Context; Paul goes on to say at the conclusion of his statement of the Law that none have kept it and none can keep it.That is not what Paul says. He says that some people keep that law, and therefore are judged according to their choices, based on the revelation they have through their conscience.
M
mikeledes
Guest
So you believe those who never heard the Gospel are surely damned? How about infants who die before baptism?Can you show one section of Scripture wherein the Spirit is given to non-believers? To continue with the passage quoted here
Rom. 8:9-10: You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Paul is contrasting those who have received the gospel with those who have not. The work of the Spirit is inextricably linked to Christ. Without Christ, the Spirit will never be received.
Well, Gentiles who were not aware of Judaism, so yes, pagans. Paul doesn’t say that only a select portion of them have dishonored God. He states quite emphatically that all non-believers, by the simple fact that they do not honor the God of Scripture, have rejected Him. The evidence for God is irrefutable to the pagans, but they reject Him in favor of gods of their own making. The situation is no different for modern Hindu’s, Buddhists, or African tribesmen. In their spirits they know God exists, but they pervert the natural knowledge given to all men.
All men have received the law in their conscience. All men knowingly violate that Law. Without the grace given by Christ for forgiveness, they will die eternally in their breaking of the law. There is no other name under heaven by which men may be saved.
God Bless,
Michael
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
Scripture doesn’t answer this question. However, we do know that God is just and will decide according to His justness. We have no objective reason to believe that infants prior to Baptism are saved. When an infant is baptised, we can say with assurance that they are children of God.So you believe those who never heard the Gospel are surely damned? How about infants who die before baptism?
God Bless,
Michael
As for non-believers…we can only say what Christ Himself says “Unless you believe I AM He…you will die in your sins.”
M
mikeledes
Guest
How can they believe if they have not heard? How does this fit with God’s desire that all men be saved and come to knowledge of the truth?Scripture doesn’t answer this question. However, we do know that God is just and will decide according to His justness. We have no objective reason to believe that infants prior to Baptism are saved. When an infant is baptised, we can say with assurance that they are children of God.
As for non-believers…we can only say what Christ Himself says “Unless you believe I AM He…you will die in your sins.”
God Bless,
Michael
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
He accomplishes His desire through the means of the Church. It is the reason we go to all nations baptizing and teaching. The Church is the means that God uses to bring salvation to the lost. It should add urgency to our mission to reach all of mankind. God, however, does not owe any man salvation. If they die apart from Christ, they will be judged apart from Christ, according to their works.How can they believe if they have not heard? How does this fit with God’s desire that all men be saved and come to knowledge of the truth?
God Bless,
Michael
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
DittoMost Protestants do not feel that the act of Baptism is the cause of regeneration but is the outward expression of receiving the miracle of regeneration.
Being “washed in the blood” is what happens when a person repents of their sinful human nature and trust Christ as Lord and Saviour. (it is a spritual matter but is not baptism) They are then spiritual beings living in a human body.
Gabriel of 12
**I have always found this new christian invention of being saved by an act of public faith (altar call) interesting. I have never seen anything like this in all of the first 1600 years of Christianity. No where in scripture is this stated, only by baptismal waters. This altar call does have implications of the desire of baptism, but these who go to the altar call,. many of them are not terminally ill, to justify the desire of baptism that saves. IF a non-catholic is to claim the “washing in the blood” , where is the lambs blood, and according to biblical practice in the old covenant and now in the new covenant the Lamb of God sacrificed still has to be consumed by the people of God being saved or forgiven for their sins. **
Baptism “represents” when a person is crucified with Christ (the blood), dies to self, and no longer has personal claim on him or her but has Christ living in him/her. (scripture reference: Galatians 2:20).
They therefore live in this world as “washed” (the water) redeemed children of God. The believer then enters a spritiual life which is continually sanctified by God through being in a relationship with Him.
Following the ascension of Christ, the disciples recorded (including Paul too) that people “heard the word” or learned of Jesus, believed, and were then baptized. People chose to be baptized after they came to their faith in Christ Jesus not the other way around.
That is what most protestants believe.
S
SCALCO
Guest
Why not apply that same line of thought to those who never heard the Gospel, but sought to follow God? If God could, in His mercy and justness, save an un-baptized infant, why not the same for those, who through no fault of their own, have never heard the Gospel, and yet “sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience”? (This last part is in quotes because I quoted from LUMEN GENTIUM.)However, we do know that God is just and will decide according to His justness. We have no objective reason to believe that infants prior to Baptism are saved. When an infant is baptised, we can say with assurance that they are children of God.
It does not give assurance of salvation. It acknowledges we cannot be certain of their eternal damnation, just as you have left open the possibility for un-baptized infants, that God will decide according to His justness.
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
Apart from the Gospel, no one follows God.Why not apply that same line of thought to those who never heard the Gospel, but sought to follow God?
God’s mercy is only made known in the Gospel of Christ. Scripture teaches that we are all sinful from the moment of conception (Psalm 51:5). It also teaches that without faith in Christ as our Savior, we are all lost. This includes infants as well as adults. We have no reason to assume that God will treat unbaptized infants with mercy. He will treat them with the same justice he does every human being. Your presupposition that those who seek God can do His will when moved by conscience is not supported by the prophetic or apostolic writings.If God could, in His mercy and justness, save an un-baptized infant, why not the same for those, who through no fault of their own, have never heard the Gospel, and yet “sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience”?
God’s grace is made known through the preaching of the Word and the administration of the Sacraments. Apart from these means, God does not give saving grace.
It doesn’t leave open the possibility for un-baptized infants. It doesn’t specifically address infants, but those who live in actual sin. Therefore, we ultimately must be silent about unbaptized infants because Scripture is silent.It does not give assurance of salvation. It acknowledges we cannot be certain of their eternal damnation, just as you have left open the possibility for un-baptized infants, that God will decide according to His justness.
S
SCALCO
Guest
Just to be clear, does scripture say it is impossible to hear God outside of the Gospel, even with the natural knowledge and evidence all men have of God, it is still impossible to seek God unless they hear the Gospel first?Apart from the Gospel, no one follows God.
God’s mercy is only made known in the Gospel of Christ. Scripture teaches that we are all sinful from the moment of conception (Psalm 51:5). It also teaches that without faith in Christ as our Savior, we are all lost. This includes infants as well as adults. We have no reason to assume that God will treat unbaptized infants with mercy. He will treat them with the same justice he does every human being. Your presupposition that those who seek God can do His will when moved by conscience is not supported by the prophetic or apostolic writings.
This is what the Catholic Church teaches. I think the issue is can that mean implicit in addition to meaning explicit.God’s grace is made known through the preaching of the Word and the administration of the Sacraments. Apart from these means, God does not give saving grace.
I think that’s the basic position of the Catholic Church as well. Something else I haven’t studied in detail.It doesn’t leave open the possibility for un-baptized infants. It doesn’t specifically address infants, but those who live in actual sin. Therefore, we ultimately must be silent about unbaptized infants because Scripture is silent.
R
ROBIN97
Guest
Because God is a Just God and not a Tyrant?
Robin
Robin
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
Yes…Apart from the Gospel, man only knows the Law. The Law of God is revealed to mankind both through what has been made, and the law written on the hearts of every human being (conscience). Humans, being sinful, rebel against the Law of God, desire to be as far away from Him as possible and reject everything that has been revealed. In substitution for the Law of God, man creates his own gods (whether they be false deities, pagan idols, money, sex, popularity, etc). This is not seeking after God. They may think they are seeking God, but they are only storing up wrath for themselves on the day of judgment.Just to be clear, does scripture say it is impossible to hear God outside of the Gospel, even with the natural knowledge and evidence all men have of God, it is still impossible to seek God unless they hear the Gospel first?
The Gospel is not revealed in a sunset, or in Allah, or Buddha. It is revealed only in the knowledge of Jesus Christ and Him crucified and risen for sinners. This knowledge is communicated by the proclamation of God’s Word and the Holy Sacraments. Apart from these means man will only continue in his suppression of the truth of God.
S
SCALCO
Guest
If I understand, there is zero hope for those who never hear the Gospel, period. Is praying for them futile?Yes…Apart from the Gospel, man only knows the Law. The Law of God is revealed to mankind both through what has been made, and the law written on the hearts of every human being (conscience). Humans, being sinful, rebel against the Law of God, desire to be as far away from Him as possible and reject everything that has been revealed. In substitution for the Law of God, man creates his own gods (whether they be false deities, pagan idols, money, sex, popularity, etc). This is not seeking after God. They may think they are seeking God, but they are only storing up wrath for themselves on the day of judgment.
The Gospel is not revealed in a sunset, or in Allah, or Buddha. It is revealed only in the knowledge of Jesus Christ and Him crucified and risen for sinners. This knowledge is communicated by the proclamation of God’s Word and the Holy Sacraments. Apart from these means man will only continue in his suppression of the truth of God.
What are the verses to support this, if you don’t mind? Last night, I read most of Romans again and still have difficulty understanding.
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
We should pray that they hear the gospel, repent and believe. We should pray that the Church reaches them and gives them the good news of redemption in Christ.If I understand, there is zero hope for those who never hear the Gospel, period. Is praying for them futile?
John 3:5: Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.What are the verses to support this, if you don’t mind? Last night, I read most of Romans again and still have difficulty understanding.
John 3:18: Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 3:36: Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Rom. 3:9-20: What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Rom. 10:14-15: How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”
Acts 4:12: And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Eph. 2:1-5: And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
That would only be a partial list.
S
SCALCO
Guest
That was fast. Do you have these memorized or already saved somewhere to copy and past from? This raises more questions, but I will hold off for now.We should pray that they hear the gospel, repent and believe. We should pray that the Church reaches them and gives them the good news of redemption in Christ.
That would only be a partial list.
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
Haha, no. I actually have used them so often on this forum that some of them I have memorized (CAF is building up my bible study skills LOL). Others you can reference in an online bible search engine by typing in gospel, salvation, etc.That was fast. Do you have these memorized or already saved somewhere to copy and past from? This raises more questions, but I will hold off for now.
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