"Be ye baptized, for the remission of your sins"

[TriuneUnity]

That was fast. Do you have these memorized or already saved somewhere to copy and past from? This raises more questions, but I will hold off for now.

Here are some others:

1 Cor. 2:14: The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is **not able **to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom. 8:6-7: For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it** cannot**.

John 8:24: "I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

 

[SCALCO]

Yes…Apart from the Gospel, man only knows the Law. The Law of God is revealed to mankind both through what has been made, and the law written on the hearts of every human being (conscience). Humans, being sinful, rebel against the Law of God, desire to be as far away from Him as possible and reject everything that has been revealed. In substitution for the Law of God, man creates his own gods (whether they be false deities, pagan idols, money, sex, popularity, etc). This is not seeking after God. They may think they are seeking God, but they are only storing up wrath for themselves on the day of judgment.

The Gospel is not revealed in a sunset, or in Allah, or Buddha. It is revealed only in the knowledge of Jesus Christ and Him crucified and risen for sinners. This knowledge is communicated by the proclamation of God’s Word and the Holy Sacraments. Apart from these means man will only continue in his suppression of the truth of God.

I wanted to add this to the mix.

1 Timothy 1:14
I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and an arrogant man, but I have been mercifully treated because I acted out of ignorance in my unbelief; and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus.

Here he was treated merciful because of ignorance. If he had not become a believer first, would God have been merciful?

 

[TriuneUnity]

I wanted to add this to the mix.

1 Timothy 1:14
I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and an arrogant man, but I have been mercifully treated because I acted out of ignorance in my unbelief; and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus.

Here he was treated merciful because of ignorance. If he had not become a believer first, would God have been merciful?

Paul here is, I believe, as determined by the context, referring to the general mercy available because of the work of Christ and him specifically, because as he later states, he was the chief of sinners. That doesn’t excuse the sinful acts he committed, whether knowingly or out of ignorance. God is merciful to every unbeliever prior to their conversion. Grace is always given to the ungodly. That grace comes through the gospel and the sacraments. It doesn’t happen to those who expect to be saved apart from the means of grace.

 

[SCALCO]

Paul here is, I believe, as determined by the context, referring to the general mercy available because of the work of Christ and him specifically, because as he later states, he was the chief of sinners. That doesn’t excuse the sinful acts he committed, whether knowingly or out of ignorance. God is merciful to every unbeliever prior to their conversion. Grace is always given to the ungodly. That grace comes through the gospel and the sacraments. It doesn’t happen to those who expect to be saved apart from the means of grace.

What do you mean God is merciful to every unbeliever prior to conversion? How does God treat someone merciful? I guess I would also ask what you mean about grace always given to the ungodly?

 

[TriuneUnity]

What do you mean God is merciful to every unbeliever prior to conversion? How does God treat someone merciful? I guess I would also ask what you mean about grace always given to the ungodly?

What I mean is that since faith is a gift, and not something we do, and prior to faith every person is an unbeliever, it is only unbelievers who receive the grace of faith. Paul tells us in Romans 4 that God justifies the wicked, and later that while we were sinners, and enemies of God, Christ died for us. This is way He is merciful to unbelievers.

 

[SCALCO]

What I mean is that since faith is a gift, and not something we do, and prior to faith every person is an unbeliever, it is only unbelievers who receive the grace of faith. Paul tells us in Romans 4 that God justifies the wicked, and later that while we were sinners, and enemies of God, Christ died for us. This is way He is merciful to unbelievers.

God’s mercy is Christ crucified… And, we can either say yes or no to the gift of faith?

I gotta go, so I’ll check back later.

 

[TriuneUnity]

God’s mercy was Christ crucified. And, we can either say yes or no to this gift of faith?

I gotta go, so I’ll check back later.

The grace of faith can be resisted, and in fact always will be resisted, unless the Spirit works in our hearts for us to accept it. If we accept, it is 100% God, if we reject, it is 100% us.

Christ’s peace to you.

 

[guanophore]

I agree with your basic premises here. That Baptism is for the remission of sins. Where we disagree is, is that for those who are not Baptised, you have stated faith in Christ crucified for sinners is not necessary. They can follow the Law and be saved. I believe this is unbiblical, and goes against the grain of Christian teaching for 2000 years.

It seems like you misunderstood my post. I was speaking of the Law of conscience, and those who have not heard the Gospel.

No. I restrict Christ in the sense that He has revealed how He works. The conflicting thoughts of pagans is due to their natural, God given conscience. The Spirit does not work immediately, like a bolt of lightning from the sky. He works through means; the proclamation of the Word, and the administration of the Sacraments. That is how the Spirit gives faith in Christ.

Well, I agree, however, there are some that do not hear the proclamation of His Word or have access to the sacraments. The Spirit of Christ is not bound by these things.

He reveals Himself in nature, as the Lawgiver and Creator of the world. He reveals Himself in the Gospel as the Savior, and Redeemer of fallen humanity. “Religious” does not mean “justified.”

Yes, we are in agreement on this point.

The Baal worshippers were “religious.” That didn’t stop the wrath of God from falling on them. To divorce God’s saving work apart from His revealed Word is to fall into the same trap as gnosticism, enthusiasm, and pentecostalism.

God’s salvation is not constricted to His revelation to us. No eye has seen, nor has ear heard…

Truth can often be discomforting and “dangerous” to those who think along the lines of the world; a theology of smile and worship the trees, God loves you anyway, is more dangerous to uphold. Both for the souls of those trapped in error, and for Christians who think Christ does not have to be acknowledged for salvation.

There are some that have never encountered Christ.

Context; Paul goes on to say at the conclusion of his statement of the Law that none have kept it and none can keep it.

You are confusing my statement about the Law of conscience with the Mosaic Law, I think.

 

[SCALCO]

Is the natural law the same as the law of conscience?

 

[TriuneUnity]

Well, I agree, however, there are some that do not hear the proclamation of His Word or have access to the sacraments. The Spirit of Christ is not bound by these things.

God’s salvation is not constricted to His revelation to us. No eye has seen, nor has ear heard…

Where is the evidence for this? Without it, it’s simply an assumption and not based on anything but one’s own wishing or imagining.

 

[SCALCO]

The grace of faith can be resisted, and in fact always will be resisted, unless the Spirit works in our hearts for us to accept it. If we accept, it is 100% God, if we reject, it is 100% us.

Christ’s peace to you.

How can we accept or reject it if we never receive it?

 

[TriuneUnity]

How can we accept or reject it if we never receive it?

If we never receive the message of the Gospel then there is no way for faith to be given. Faith is only given through the means of Word and sacrament.

All men, by nature, have already rejected the Law of God.

 

[SCALCO]

How can we accept or reject it if we never receive it?

Could it be that we all have already rejected it in some sense before we are born? Is that what you’re getting at?
Otherwise, they don’t have a choice or a free response. I won’t be on the forums for few days. I need to take some time off.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Could it be that we all have already rejected it in some sense before we are born? Is that what you’re getting at?
Otherwise, they don’t have a choice or a free response and it would be predestination.

Yes, that is absolutely what I am saying. By nature, in Adam, we have rejected God (original sin). Adding to the condemnation of Adam’s tresspass are our own rejections of God’s Law (actual sins). Any action or thought we take/have is polluted with sin. By the standard of the Law, all men are under the wrath and condemnation of God.