Ishii, try to understand these other issues you throw into the mix are unrelated to me. We are talking about one issue. Roe. An attempt of a pluralistic democracy to form a law for its land. Safe, legal. And I repeat my preference of programs to help make it rare.
Perhaps the reason you can’t picture Jesus saying you must be a right wing conservative is because He wasn’t?The difficulty comes in trying to determine whose truth is the Truth.
We have the Bible, the Word of God. It must be interpreted by man; it is not true that the Bible explains itself as some groups hold. So, it is not as simple as it seems to be to some faiths.
Indeed. And if it were so simple and clear, everyone would be of one, exact, same faith. But instead that’s why each is called faith.
I don’t worry about it much, I don’t think he would have gotten involved in it. The only thing I know of him mentioning government was to render unto Ceasar what was Ceasars. Sometimes deep inside I think we know what’s right and wrong, we just cant bring ourselves to seperate out hearts from our minds.
That He was however is the picture painted by many Catholics and the Catholic Church today. And it is something I personally debate in my conscience as to whether the human elements of the Church have moved too far away from Jesus in that regard and instead too close to the values of the Glenn Becks and Sarah Palins of the world.
Peace.
As a new Catholic it amazes me that some believe that they can practice or believe whatever they want and still remain or claim to be Catholic because they were born such. I believe that some practices, and or beliefs, equate to automatic excommunication and do not require a Bishop or other religious to perform anything to make the excommunication, as it is done by the individual through the act or belief.
No need to be personal about it.
Everything I just said is reality: I am talking about the actual arrangement of our government, the actual freedom you enjoy, and the actual stated opinions and actions of people in the government.
I go into the grocery store, and find an incredible array of agricultural products that weren’t availble when I was a kid. I get in my car, and I see the same farmland I saw all my life.
The government is largely acting within Constitutional limits. Certainly there are violations of civil rights which are just not addressed by the courts for various reasons. There are also Supreme Court decisions and government policies I disagree with. No Constitutional crisis, certainly.
Yes, and doesn’t this leave your libertarian vision in a bit of a predicament? Jefferson, after devoting much of his political career and reputation to a certain theory, found it didn’t work.
We have words printed on a page, and disagreement over what they mean. That seems a theoretical discussion. And we have the fact of the nature of government as it exists.
If I had a time machine, I’d help you back to 1790. But I’m comfortable with here, and I would like to see the next chapter of our nation, not lament the past. “Here” is no worse than most times in American history (apart from the current recession, which will pass).
Hi Jeff, it might amaze you as a new Catholic but allow me to nab this in the bud right away before it gets blown out of proportion as often occurs here on the forum as to who is rightfully considered a Catholic by the Church. Well meaning folks I am sure who express their full adherance to all Church teaching sometimes overlook this one.
Somehow, they think that is what Jesus would do. Beats the heck out of me how all these socialist, high and mighty folks can remain Catholic and propose ideas that only lead to tyranny. And hate Beck for pointing out what is obvious to anyone with the slightest ability to logically assimilate current events into a prognosis for the future, based on what has happened every time in the past.
I do apologize if you felt I got personal, but you proved my point here:
Everything you see is better in your life, for now, so things must be ok. We must be headed in the right direction. Peanut farming is slowly disappearing here in OK, from what I hear sugar cane farming is nearly extinct in Louisiana, and I’ve heard all sorts of stories of farmers being shut down through the commerce clause. My family use to be peanut farmers as well. Marginal oil wells(wells that produce less than 10 bbls a day) produce a significant amount of the oil that comes out of my state. Yet, we are being hit with new regulations every year. We have to hire the same companies that the big boys hire to inspect our leases the same way they would a lease that makes 1,000 bbls a day. Yes, at 75 dollars a bbl it makes things easier, but if oil fell back down below 25 dollar a bbl, with these regulations, it would be devastating to this state.
Policy can create oppression as much as any dictator. As I pointed out earlier there are two very distinct definitions for oppression. Not all people may feel it, but I guess those that do, do not matter. Or those that do, are just delusional, to those who do not.
Yes, I guess you are right. How could I have forgotten our constitution was written in pencil.
Enlighten me.
Yes, we do. It has been very successful. How much of that do you honeslty attribute to government? I don’t think we are in one, I think we are headed to one. I think the mistakes of the 5 or 6 generations are starting to show themselves. Those who are near that poverty line are the ones who will feel it first. But most of them will not attribute it to the mistakes of a growing, overbearing government. They do and will look to government to ease the burden more and more. Add to all of this the destruction of the family, abortion, rise in divorce rate, drug use, fewer Christians. It’s just all a part of the wonderful future we are headed to right?
I’m the first generation in my family to be raised in a lower middle class income. My father, extremely successful now, was born and raised in poverty. He’s been working gardens, fields and cattle since he was a child. 1790 is a lot closer to home to me than it is to most people these days. I have no doubt the recession will pass, my doubts are that we have not learned our lesson.
This isn’t entirely subjective. The United States is the economic engine of the world.
The only way you can respect liberals is to judge they must have a learning disability and you are sorry for them? That’s an interesting way to show respect.
Do you have any psychometric evidence for this? You do not sound condescending at all, but your assertion is absolutely risible without any supporting evidence.
We are talking about the government, not the people.
Yes, unfortunately we are not taking care of that engine. Instead we are hot rodding around like a car given to a teenager who has no appreciation for it.
We won’t have to.
Jeff, you can also shorten all of this to one line…
Well, I appreciate the civil manner in which you keep answering me. Also, I appreciate your responses. This point may help: you say you are not a theocratic dictator, presumably to explain your position on the legality of abortion. I answer: when have I ever advocated in my posts rule by fiat? I am simply saying that in the pluralistic democracy we live in, we have the right to persuade people through discussion and debate so that they will join us in fighting to change certain laws democratically. I think we need to stop the slaughter of the unborn, and want to persuade people to join me in voting for people who also want to stop the slaughter (or atleast seriously curtail it). That is the American way! So quite the contrary, I am not advocating a theocracy and I rather resent the implication that simply because what I’m advocating also happens to be Church teaching, that I am trying to make all Church teaching the law of the land. For example, I don’t want to outlaw steak barbecues on Friday’s during Lent. The killing of the unborn is a different matter, and people of all stripes who respect life should be able to understand this outside of Church teaching. Now, there will always be people who reject the popular will of the people. In the 60’s, when blacks were finally given their full civil rights, you had racists in the south who disagreed. We ignored their wishes, even though we are a “pluralistic democracy”. While I recognize that civil rights for blacks and the abortion issue aren’t the same - what’s apples to apples is this: I do think that even in a pluralistic democracy, some people lose out - in the case of civil rights for blacks, racists lost out. If abortion were outlawed, those who want to abort babies would lose out. Good.Ishii, you’re very welcome for my response. I continually wish though to leave this debate but then you will say something which shows me you might not in fact understand me quite as well as you think.
Ishii, what you apparently still do not understand is I am not a theocratic dictator. And it is not whether I see black and white on this issue or someone sees gray. Nor whether I believe in one truth and am not a relativist or whether someone is. Your or my definition of baby or human personhood at the moment of conception may or may not be shared by persons of other beliefs and creeds and reasoning in our democratic pluralistic society. And we are not talking about these apples you continue to want to mix with the oranges, Ishii. Now you throw in aparttheid.
Ishii, can’t you understand better and agree to disagree and move on from our debate? Ishii, I think perhaps where you and I differ the most is on the single most emphasis and such a singular focus on this one issue to the detriment of the other issues we should be focused on. Focused on in our faith, in our voting, in our American values.
Peace Ishii. And I truly hope this helps!