Beck: Help us restore traditional American values

[bbarrick8383]

I’d like to know what happened to the thread I posted, and why it ended up here. I posted an article that discussed Christ the Liberator and it ends up being glenn Beck’s restoration of American values. If I posted in the wrong forum, let me know. Don’t equate my article with the title of this thread.

For some reason the moderator moved that thread. When you click on it, it will link to this thread.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Abortion likely never will be eradicated (at least until Christ returns). .

I’m guessing there will be a lot of hemming and hawing when this happens!

 

[Via_Dolorosa]

For some reason the moderator moved that thread. When you click on it, it will link to this thread.

Thanks for your help here. I was not directed to this thread. i’d still like to hear you evience of a new world order. Do you have anything to cite?

 

[Via_Dolorosa]

I’m guessing there will be a lot of hemming and hawing when this happens!

I guess will we all have to defend our our decisions: what we have done and what we have failed to do.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Took all that time and then Rich comes along and sums up reality so concisely and brilliantly. And that’s a wrap!

How do you figure? Truth is truth. What I or you or anyone else says is the truth, is only the Truth if it is the Truth. There is no “my truth” and “your truth”–there is only Truth.

To say anything else is moral realtivism, which has been condemned by multiple Popes.

Sure, you can absolutely believe in “your” “truth”. But if that truth isn’t the Truth, then you can’t say that you are a practicing Catholic in communion with the Church. End of, really.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Thanks for your help here. I was not directed to this thread. i’d still like to hear you evience of a new world order. Do you have anything to cite?

I was responding to his post about(I’ll paraphrase here) doing away with conservative Republicans and centrist Democrats. That would obviously leave us with liberal politicians who promote big government, which for most liberals, does not end. It seems that for many of them there is no end to what may be taxed or spent by their beloved big brother.

It would also lead to even more abortion(which it’s shocking enough to see a Catholic support such a government), possible population control measures, eugenics, killing off old people.

So, I continued on with the speculation.

But it does not go without any evidence. There have been talks about global taxes, giving more power to foreign bodies such as the UN. Then you have the whole thing with INTERPOL awhile back. It’s just sounding more and more, to me at least, like a liberal haven. Judges citing foreign law in domestic cases.

“The essence of Government is power; and power, lodged as it must be in human hands, will ever be liable to abuse.” ~ James Madison

 

[CMatt25]

Nobody is suggesting that the hungry or homeless should not have the life. We aren’t arguing that point.

Bingo! Then why bring it up? For the same reason you kept bringing up slavery. And infantcide up to age 1. And gassing 10 and 11 yr old boys. To distract from what we were actually talking about. Which was not those other issues. But I’m so glad you see my point now Suudy about how those issues you wanted to compare with legally forcing everyone to believe what you reason regarding what happens at the moment of conception, were simply not comparable. Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

Eh?

Did you read the responses to Rich?

Sure but they were responses. They didn’t refute or certainly didn’t prove Rich wrong.

 

[CMatt25]

How do you figure? Truth is truth. What I or you or anyone else says is the truth, is only the Truth if it is the Truth. There is no “my truth” and “your truth”–there is only Truth.

To say anything else is moral realtivism

Perhaps rereading 3 sentences of Rich’s will help. They explain how.

“If it were so obvious that abortion is an evil, who could support it?” I’ll answer. No one could if it was so obvious to everyone.

“Truth is what we believe to be the truth.” That really says it all in a nutshell.

" Faith has so much to do with what Truth is, that I don’t think one can otherwise objectively and unquestionably determine what constitutes Truth." And that’s the icing on the cake.

I really wish you guys would get off exclaiming relativism all the time. It’s not relativism when there is one Truth. But Truth as Rich explained is what we believe it to be and is so intertwined with faith.

Now sure many like to think they know with 100% absolute certainty and have all Truth. I don’t know if it makes them feel good. Makes them feel superior or what. But faith is faith. God bless you on your lifelong journey of faith and peace.

 

[CMatt25]

I was responding to his post about(I’ll paraphrase here) doing away with conservative Republicans and centrist Democrats. That would obviously leave us with liberal politicians who promote big government, which for most liberals, does not end. It seems that for many of them there is no end to what may be taxed or spent by their beloved big brother.

It would also lead to even more abortion(which it’s shocking enough to see a Catholic support such a government), possible population control measures, eugenics, killing off old people.

So, I continued on with the speculation.

But it does not go without any evidence. There have been talks about global taxes, giving more power to foreign bodies such as the UN. Then you have the whole thing with INTERPOL awhile back. It’s just sounding more and more, to me at least, like a liberal haven. Judges citing foreign law in domestic cases.

I talked about rare and you’re painting a picture of more? And here we go again who said anything about killing off old people? Maybe I’m not a liberal afterall.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Perhaps rereading 3 sentences of Rich’s will help. They explain how.

“If it were so obvious that abortion is an evil, who could support it?” I’ll answer. No one could if it was so obvious to everyone.

“Truth is what we believe to be the truth.” That really says it all in a nutshell.

" Faith has so much to do with what Truth is, that I don’t think one can otherwise objectively and unquestionably determine what constitutes Truth." And that’s the icing on the cake.

I really wish you guys would get off exclaiming relativism all the time. It’s not relativism when there is one Truth. But Truth as Rich explained is what we believe it to be and is so intertwined with faith.

Now sure many like to think they know with 100% absolute certainty and have all Truth. I don’t know if it makes them feel good. Makes them feel superior or what. But faith is faith. God bless you on your lifelong journey of faith and peace.

It will never cease to amaze me at what lengths some people will go to, to justify their political beliefs. They want to vote for liberal candidates, but to do that they must support abortion. But that is compeletely against what their faith tells them to do, and it’s a non negotiable, it is one of the things that they must go against. Yet they can not, what’s here and now, what they can see and touch today is more important and more real to them than where their own faith tells them they are going.

 

[CMatt25]

It will never cease to amaze me at what lengths some people will go to, to justify their political beliefs. They want to vote for liberal candidates, but to do that they must support abortion. But that is compeletely against what their faith tells them to do, and it’s a non negotiable, it is one of the things that they must go against. Yet they can not, what’s here and now, what they can see and touch today is more important and more real to them than where their own faith tells them they are going.

Well not exactly. Actually my faith, the faith I have in Jesus and for those He most advocated for in His work and service on this earth, dictates my politics. And we may have to vote for pro choice candidates but that doesn’t mean we are for abortion. Anti-choice folks miss the mark when they describe pro choice as pro abortion. But I’ve already explained why. God bless and peace.

 

[bbarrick8383]

I talked about rare and you’re painting a picture of more? And here we go again who said anything about killing off old people? Maybe I’m not a liberal afterall.

I did not read nor interpret anything as being “rare”.

But what we may need in govt are are less centrist Dems and certainly less conservative R’s.

You sound like a Van Jones type of guy.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Well not exactly. Actually my faith, the faith I have in Jesus and for those He most advocated for in His work and service on this earth, dictates my politics. And we may have to vote for pro choice candidates but that doesn’t mean we are for abortion. Anti-choice folks miss the mark when they describe pro choice as pro abortion. But I’ve already explained why. God bless and peace.

I did not read any explanations, saw plenty of excuses though.

 

[CMatt25]

It would also lead to even more abortion(which it’s shocking enough to see a Catholic support such a government), possible population control measures, eugenics, killing off old people.

So, I continued on with the speculation.

Well we’ve already established who is a Catholic. So unless perhaps you need to broaden your horizons so you wouldn’t be so shocked, I don’t know why it surprises you. I’m not a member of any but you can google Catholics for Choice. There is Dignity in support of gay rights. Voice of the Faithful. I worked a little on the Obama campaign and there was even Catholics for Obama. In reality there is a whole world of Catholics out there, perhaps a majority in the US, not limited only to those of us found here on our CAF.

But speculate you did. Peace.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Well we’ve already established who is a Catholic. So unless perhaps you need to broaden your horizons so you wouldn’t be so shocked, I don’t know why it surprises you. I’m not a member of any but you can google Catholics for Choice. There is Dignity in support of gay rights. Voice of the Faithful. I worked a little on the Obama campaign and there was even Catholics for Obama. In reality there is a whole world of Catholics out there not limited only to those found here on CAF.

Oh, no I’ve seen several here on CAF. I know that quite a few Catholics support Obama and that type of society.

It just surpises me that in a faith like Catholicism, those beliefs are tolerated.

It’s obvious to me that you can not be Catholic, and be pro-choice. I wonder how many “Catholics” would turn their back on the Church, if the Church told them to stop supporting pro-choice candidates or they would be forced out.

 

[Suudy]

Bingo! Then why bring it up? For the same reason you kept bringing up slavery. And infantcide up to age 1. And gassing 10 and 11 yr old boys. To distract from what we were actually talking about.

Again, no. That is not the reason.

The reason is just as I quoted from Peter Kreeft:

“Give me one argument that defends abortion that doesn’t also defend infanticide.”

The very same arguments used to justify abortion can be used to justify infanticide or euthanasia.

Answer me this. Do you oppose infanticide? Do you think the Church should actively oppose infanticide? Do you think infanticide is a grave moral evil? If you answer yes, in order for you to be logically consistent you must also do the same for abortion.

Which was not those other issues. But I’m so glad you see my point now Suudy about how those issues you wanted to compare with legally forcing everyone to believe what you reason regarding what happens at the moment of conception, were simply not comparable. Peace.

Let me repeat it again. I’ll bold the relevant parts to make it clear.

We are comparing the ARGUMENTS for abortion with the ARGUMENTS for infanticide and the ARGUMENTS for euthanasia. They are all the same species. We are not comparing abortion with infanticide. We are not comparing abortion with euthanasia. We are comparing ARGUMENTS.

 

[Suudy]

Sure but they were responses. They didn’t refute or certainly didn’t prove Rich wrong.

You’ll note that even Rich acknowledge that objective truth exists. If objective truth exists, then there cannot be “your truth” about who is a human person and “my truth” about who is a human person.

I’ll repeat it again: an unborn child is either a human person or it isn’t. There isn’t “your truth” about it or “my truth” about it. It either is or it isn’t, independent of what we think, or feel, or believe.

 

[CMatt25]

Oh, no I’ve seen several here on CAF. I know that quite a few Catholics support Obama and that type of society.

It just surpises me that in a faith like Catholicism, those beliefs are tolerated.

It’s obvious to me that you can not be Catholic, and be pro-choice. I wonder how many “Catholics” would turn their back on the Church, if the Church told them to stop supporting pro-choice candidates or they would be forced out.

Oh ok.

I could only venture guesses. One is perhaps Christ is tolerant of various members of His body. I guess though you’ll have to ask Him if it’s something that bothers you so much. Personally I’m more interested in things like why so much suffering, hunger, poverty, disease, disasters for instance. Things like that. I understand Satan having a role in those things though and how we will apprciate heaven that much more after earth. But I still sometimes have wondered why so much. But I guess we all at times have our questions as to what concerns us more. Peace to you.

The Church would be following voters into the voting booth?

 

[Suudy]

“If it were so obvious that abortion is an evil, who could support it?” I’ll answer. No one could if it was so obvious to everyone.

Then why does everyone claim that abortion is such a difficult decision for women, and they don’t take it lightly? If it isn’t an evil, or at least gravely immoral, why would it be so difficult? It is obvious to everyone that it is not amoral.

Why should abortion be safe, legal, and rare if it is nothing more than a medical procedure? Is pregnancy a medical condition that needs to be corrected? Is pregnancy now some sort of hiccup in the body that requires surgery to correct?

The fact is, abortion is rooted in the selfish, prideful, fallen nature of man. Their shame, their fear, their selfish desire not to be bothered, contribute to abortion. In what other area of our lives do we try to legitimize actions driven by those passions?

“Truth is what we believe to be the truth.” That really says it all in a nutshell.

Nonsense! We’ve been over this. Does 2+2=5 because you believe it does? After all, “truth is what we believe to be the truth.” There are absolute, objective truths. Not you, not me, not Rich, not the Pope gets to decide what is objectively true and what isn’t. We only discover the truth. We don’t make it.

" Faith has so much to do with what Truth is, that I don’t think one can otherwise objectively and unquestionably determine what constitutes Truth." And that’s the icing on the cake.

You apparently missed the part where I mentioned that reason is the key. And a well formed reason at that.

I really wish you guys would get off exclaiming relativism all the time. It’s not relativism when there is one Truth. But Truth as Rich explained is what we believe it to be and is so intertwined with faith.

Yes, there is Truth. It exists, objectively. I’m glad to see you agree to that. But if you believe that, why then can you not recognize the objective truth of what constitutes a human being?

But even if we cannot know the truth, the skeptic in us should stay our hand anyways. If we don’t know whether an unborn child is actually human, does that give us license to terminate pregnancies? If a hunter saw the bushes moving, and fired into that bush with being certain of what was in it, would that be responsible? So why then should we permit pregnancies to be terminated if people aren’t even sure if the unborn child is a human person?

The fetus is either a human person, or it isn’t.

Now sure many like to think they know with 100% absolute certainty and have all Truth.

Who here has suggested they know with “100% absolute certainty”? Really? Who has claimed this? The only claim is that we have reasonable certainty, that is informed by reason.

And who here has claimed to “have all Truth”? Really? Who has claimed this? We know some Truth. We learn some (like 2+2=4) and we discover some (I like ice cream). But nobody has claimed to “have all Truth”. The only person that has all Truth is God, and I’m reasonably certain (not “100% absolute certain”) that God is not one of the posters here.

I don’t know if it makes them feel good. Makes them feel superior or what.

You are right, you probably don’t know. But since I haven’t read any posts of people think that, I can’t ask them. Maybe when you find one, you can ask them and then tell us how it makes them feel.

But faith is faith.

Indeed. And Truth is Truth. Faith doesn’t change Truth. Faith conforms to Truth.