"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. " (Matt 7:13-14)The greatest danger to the Catholic Church comes from her own members who misrepresent the teachings of Jesus.
We’re becoming as watered down as the Protestants.
You are missing the point. The point is that it isn’t “End of story”. You can’t claim conscience, in and of itself, as “End of story.” It doesn’t work that way.
Just a sprinkle of reasoning? Are you saying that you don’t usually use reason, just faith?
Maybe Catholics are less inclined to vote Democratic now (well, at least not in droves any more) is because the Democrats have sunk their teeth into the culture of death. Maybe it has nothing to do with economics, but with justice. Maybe many Catholics recognize murder when they see it, and refuse to support a political party that wants tax payers to pay for it.
Suudy, No one but you said a thing about a sprinkle. I said I use some reasoning. And here I actually thought you would like that!
I hope you are right. I still know Catholics in my church are blindly supporting their pro-death party. I can only pray for them to wake up. It is actually pathetic to see people blindly being Obama supporter regardless all his wrong doings … I just don’t understand how could pious Catholics care not about killing babies. I don’t know how to make out of this…
The word you used was “some”. And you used it again here. “Some” not “mostly”. The clear reading of that is that you use reason less than you use faith.Suudy, No one but you said a thing about a sprinkle. I said I use some reasoning. And here I actually thought you would like that!
Part of the problem is that the priests and bishops in America have been lackluster about promoting respect for the sanctity of life. Sure they make an effort, and some do a great job, but too often the message is mixed, depending on the parish you go to. In fact, the parishes that most need the pro-life message to be drilled in to them are the most likely to have liberal pastors/priests who refuse to mention the issue. The heirarchy in the Catholic church in America contains a lot of old style dyed in the wool Democrats who, when it comes to abortion, are Democrats first and catholics second. Additionally, many of the laity in leadership positions are also dyed in the wool Democrats (atleast in my area). However, I think things are changing and the new generation of priests are staunchly and vocally pro-life. The change is slow, though, and as evidenced by some of the posts of catholics on this thread, there is a lot of educating left to do on the sanctity of life. You can’t be Catholic and pro-choice. Period. End of story.
Are you sure? I’ve heard someone on this thread saying that the Church has gone too far, and that the Church has “elevated one issue to such importance vs all others”. Surely you can’t be right.
)Hey, as long as we vote our conscience, it’s all good. We can’t betray our conscience, that is the “End of story.”
Sigh. Talk about topics getting old.
I was searching through some older posts, and I discovered a thread where we discussed this in detail (well before this thread). The point of that thread is that when people say “You can’t be Catholic and pro-choice” they really mean “You can’t be Catholic in full communion with the Church and be pro-choice.”
That is a good definition. I just don’t understand how could anyone, not just “Catholics”, think killing a baby is nothing to worry??? I once read a good email it reports about a doctor’s advice to a woman who wants to have an abortion. The doctor asked the woman how many children she already has, she said one toddler. Her reason of abortion was she could not handle another one, it was inconvenient. The doctor thought a while and made his suggestion: to kill the toddler.
Because then those pro-abortion catholics must actually face the horror of their position.
Oh Suudy believe me I have discussed this far before you and I discussed it. So often that oft’ times I can’t help but reason I was led to CAF to explain to my fellow Catholics who the Church counts as Catholic. But if that’s what they mean then I guess that’s what they should say. I truly have to believe though they know because otherwise if they disagree with something so basic as the Church teaching of who She calls Catholic, they themselves would not be in total agreement with all they might profess to be in total agreement with.
but who might still nevertheless not be in lockstep on everything, is still Catholic. Even excommunicated Catholics, while they may be supposedly officially barred from the Sacraments or from a ministering capacity within their parish, are still Catholic.Hi my friend, I understand the difficulty and pain with this you are having. I can see it in your posts. Part of the problem may be the legal law of the land and your definition of killing a baby may not be the same. But I found this site which may be of help for you to better understand the American values, perhaps not Beck’s values, but those American values of which pro-choice Catholics may espouse. I’m not a donating member of this group but perhaps exploring their site, while you won’t end up agreeing, might at least be of some help to help you understand better. I at least hope so and pray. God bless you in your walk of faith and may you be at peace.
I think that is an impossibility. A properly catechized and informed conscience would by necessity agree with Church teaching. An informed conscience, by definition, means one that is aligned with God’s will. And since infallible Church teaching is also in line with God’s will, that means both an informed conscience and Church teaching will agree.Even someone with a properly catechized informed conscience who after much prayer, contemplation and whether with a sprinkle of reasoning or even perhaps with a lot of that reasoning you like
That’s true, but they are not in communion. That is the point.
Nor will it ever come. Remember, “[t]he gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
Having an indelible mark does not automatically mean saved. Having an indelible mark does not grant people some special status. In fact, the Church teaches that all the baptized have an indelible mark, not just those baptized as Catholic. Are you saying that all the baptized can call themselves Catholic, since they all have an indelible mark?
And participation in such a group can lead to excommunication. From Bishop Bruskewitz’s statement (here):All Catholics in and of the Diocese of Lincoln are forbidden to be members of the organizations and groups listed below. Membership in these organizations or groups is always perilous to the Catholic Faith and most often is totally incompatible with the Catholic Faith.
That sounds like it could get awfully close to indoctrination of the brain and is scary to me actually. But then that’s me.
I could never commit the mental contortionism necessary to be a liberal.
And yet Suudy I’m glad to know as you yourself have admitted, they would still be a Catholic. Let us have a group hug united in Him. In He Whom is far greater than any differences we might have. :grouphug: God bless and peace.
I have admitted as much in the past.