Beck: Help us restore traditional American values

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CMatt25 said:
That sounds like it could get awfully close to indoctrination of the brain and is scary to me actually. But then that’s me.
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I think that’s a misunderstanding. Indoctrination is a forcible act. Working to inform ones conscience, one will naturally come to consensus with all Church teaching.
CMatt25 said:
As to the rest of your post, looks like we’re back to square one. You’re still objecting to the Church’s definition of who is a Catholic. And that’s my point. Not who is more in communion on this vs that thing.
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It not about “communion on this vs that thing.” You are either in full communion or imperfect communion. It isn’t about being in full communion on one issue, but in full communion on all issues. One can only be in full communion if one agrees with the Catholic faith in its entirety.

And I’m not objecting on who is Catholic. My point is that the common use of the word “Catholic” includes the unspoken phrase “in full communion with the Catholic church”.
CMatt25 said:
But that’s ok Suudy if you wish to dissent on who our Church calls Catholic. I’ve tried. I might be heading off for an early dinner. So again my friend, God bless you and peace. :hug1:
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Again, I’m not arguing with who the Church calls Catholic. I’m arguing about what people mean when they say “You can’t be Catholic and pro-choice.”
 
Suudy, you are unfailingly diplomatic in your posts and I really admire that. Sometimes I suspect that some readers may, as a result, be unclear as to the import of some of the topics you write about.

I am a regular listener of Father Corapi. He is known for saying “you can’t be Catholic and pro-choice”. He also says that to be a Catholic in “full communion” with the Church, you need to accept ALL the Church has set forth as doctrine. This means, as I understand it, that Catholics who “pick and choose” those doctrines they accept ~ the so-called “Cafeteria” Catholics ~ are not in “full communion” with the Church.

So, what does it mean to be a Catholic that is not in “full communion” with the Church? As I understand it, this situation is not materially different from being in a state of mortal sin, because the Catholic that is not in “full communion” with the Church has essentially self-excommunicated themselves. As an ex-communicant, they are not eligible to receive the Eucharist, and further, as I understand it, their situation cannot be remedied by Reconciliation unless and until they are ready to accept all the Church has set forth as doctrine. As long as they subscribe to those things that are at variance with Church doctrine, their situation cannot be resolved.

Do I have that wrong? If so, where? But if I have it right, it seems to me that it means:

  1. *]Advocating for abortion on demand, either for oneself or others, separates any Catholic from “full communion” with the Catholic church.
    *]Supporting politicians who advocate for abortion on demand, unless there is no other choice, has the same effect as #1.
    *]When someone is not in “full communion” with the Church, they have self-excommunicated themselves and are not eligible to receive the Eucharist unless and until they accept all that the Church sets forth as doctrine, which would, among other things require them to give up any advocacy or political support of abortion on demand.

    Please let me know if I have that right. Thanks!
 
CMatt25 said:
… Part of the problem may be the legal law of the land and your definition of killing a baby may not be the same. But I found this site which may be of help for you to better understand the American values… ]
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The legal law of abortion is the problem. The current liberal American value is not the traditional American value. Good thing is the awakening seems to be happening. Hopefully this awakening will continue and traditional American values will be restored, the culture of life will overcome the culture of death. Catholics, if they truly follow the teachings of the Gospel, if they truly want to be the followers of Jesus, they will not vote for pro-abortion candidates. They should not use any other issue as an excuse to vote for the pro-abortion candidates.

They can freely vote whoever they want now, but eventually, they have to give their account to the Lord in their personal judgment. Surely, they are free to be Catholics for choice at the moment, but wait till the very end which unavoidably comes for everybody. Then there will be no excuse and no escape.
 
Suudy said:
I have admitted as much in the past.

But being an excommunicated Catholic is not much different than being a baptized Christian of another faith. In fact, I would think an excommunicated Catholic to be an worse position, since the latter may be there through no fault of their own.
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I wouldn’t know for certain Suudy as I reason pretty heavily on Matt 7:1 when it comes to salvation and things like that. So I won’t venture to comment on whether any potentially worse position or not. But then of course I realize I am mixing reason with faith where I don’t find myself forced to believe XYZ or else which may or may not be in the proper measurements to your tastes. But in any case peace! :hug1:.
 
PTL said:
The legal law of abortion is the problem. The current liberal American value is not the traditional American value. Good thing is the awakening seems to be happening. Hopefully this awakening will continue and traditional American values will be restored, the culture of life will overcome the culture of death. Catholics, if they truly follow the teachings of the Gospel, if they truly want to be the followers of Jesus, they will not vote for pro-abortion candidates. They should not use any other issue as an excuse to vote for the pro-abortion candidates.

They can freely vote whoever they want now, but eventually, they have to give their account to the Lord in their personal judgment. Surely, they are free to be Catholics for choice at the moment, but wait till the very end which unavoidably comes for everybody. Then there will be no excuse and no escape.
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Ok so you posted you had trouble understanding and didn’t know what to make of it. But I take it you aren’t even going to try to understand a different point of view. So ok. Peace to you in any case.
 
CMatt25 said:
Ok so you posted you had trouble understanding and didn’t know what to make of it. But I take it you aren’t even going to try to understand a different point of view. So ok. Peace to you in any case.
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It is not that I am not trying to understand a different point of view. We can understand many different point of views as God granted us free will from day one. The point is whether we as believers, believe in and follow through the Gospel and Church teachings. We can have our own point of view, but when our point of view conflicts with the Church’s teaching, do we insist on our own point of view and continue, or do we stop to ponder, and trust the Church we belong to that reflects God’s teaching? That is the point of my previous post.

Peace be with you too.
 
PTL said:
It is not that I am not trying to understand a different point of view. We can understand many different point of views as God granted us free will from day one. The point is whether we as believers, believe in and follow through the Gospel and Church teachings. We can have our own point of view, but when our point of view conflicts with the Church’s teaching, do we insist on our own point of view and continue, or do we stop to ponder, and trust the Church we belong to that reflects God’s teaching? That is the point of my previous post.

Peace be with you too.
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But when the Church’s emphasis on a single issue has reached the point where one issue affects voting in American elections to such an extreme degree as it seems to have for some Catholics, seemingly especially for many Catholics here on CAF… and the word abortion which isn’t even found in the Bible has so much more to do with values voting than the social Gospel message Christ actually talked a whole lot more about. For an example see Matt 25:35-46. Then this Catholic is going to stop and use his free will to weigh, ponder, and trust the entire Gospel message of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

But as Jesus taught He has other sheep of other folds so we can agree to disagree. Thank you for your sign of peace and indeed again to you as well. :hug1:
 
Suudy said:
And I’m not objecting on who is Catholic. My point is that the common use of the word “Catholic” includes the unspoken phrase “in full communion with the Catholic church”.
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Suudy, it’s good to know you are not objecting to who the Catholic Church calls Catholic. I’m glad that’s finally settled for everyone. 👍 Well I can pray it is at least. 🙂

I might have to disagree with you however on “common use”. Common use to who? How common? Not much I would submit. As I imagine you surely know many Catholics don’t attend Mass every wk or on Holy Days. Don’t confess their mortal sins, as the Church defines mortal sin, well they don’t confess to a priest at least. They might go direct. Don’t prescribe to Church birth control precepts. And so on and so on. In reality it might well be it is the so-called “in full communion” Catholics who are probably the least common. My point is not to argue who may or may not be right or wrong. Only that the most common use of Catholic by Catholics might not be the common use you describe. I know a lot of Catholics. And the majority I know make many I have found here on CAF actually in the uncommon or minority realm of Catholics. But that’s my experience. 🤷 YMMV.

God bless and peace!
 
CMatt25 said:
But when the Church’s emphasis on a single issue has reached the point where one issue affects voting in American elections to such an extreme degree as it seems to have for some Catholics, seemingly especially for many Catholics here on CAF… and the word abortion which isn’t even found in the Bible has so much more to do with values voting than the social Gospel message Christ actually talked a whole lot more about. For an example see Matt 25:35-46. Then this Catholic is going to stop and use his free will to weigh, ponder, and trust the entire Gospel message of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

But as Jesus taught He has other sheep of other folds so we can agree to disagree. Thank you for your sign of peace and indeed again to you as well. :hug1:
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The word “abortion” means killing. “You shall not kill” is in the ten commandments. The Church emphasizes not on a “single” issue but on a “fundamental” issue. When there is no life, there is nothing. Respecting life is the basic. If we cannot respect the life of the unborn, we will not respect any life. Facts prove this. The Obama care not only funds abortion but also destroys seniors’ lives. People 65 or above are rationed, they will be denied for treatment and let to die. That is another form of killing. The Church, with her wisdom from the Holy Spirit knows well that abortion leads to many other immoral and sinful behaviors.

I know many people are deceived to think national health care is helping the poor. Actually, the Obama care is far from helping the poor. Our current health care system actually takes care of the poor. Before my mother passed away, she did not have any health insurance. The hospital treated her and waived all her medical bills. I have a friend recently accumulated a medical bill of $150,000 and the hospital wrote it off. People are deceived by thinking Obama care will be better, it is not. It kills baby and the aged, casts burden on business and individuals.I just want to share some facts I experienced first hand.

Yes, Matthew 25:35-46 is very important. And our capital society are doing just that. Numerous charities are helping the poor. That is the right way to help the poor - from brotherly love and care, not from big government. When people are depending on government, the society will be paralyzed. If half of the country wait for hand outs, the other half of the country feel resentful for people who refuse to work and wait to be fed, the entire country will collapse and that is what communism is about. Communist wants the society to be equally poor so people will be totally controlled by the government.

Yes, we can agree to disagree, but the other fold of sheep Jesus was talking about has nothing to do with abortion or Marxism which this administration is heading to.
 
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bbarrick8383 said:
The “social justice” and “liberation theology” that supports abortion is the what Beck is speaking out against.
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Ran across this article today which I thought was educational and relevant to the “social justice” issue and how it has been corrupted & coopted by the left, trying to get a foot in the door of unsuspecting parishes, some to great success:

Social Justice: Not What You Think it Is by Michael Novak

heritage.org/Research/Lecture/Social-Justice-Not-What-You-Think-It-Is#_ftn6

Is there a way to send this to Beck so he’ll read it?? I’d like to send him some encyclicals, like Rerum Novarum and Qudragesimo Anno.

Also some books on Church history, since he’s so into History in general.

Mimi
 
PTL said:
The word “abortion” means killing. “You shall not kill” is in the ten commandments. The Church emphasizes not on a “single” issue but on a “fundamental” issue. When there is no life, there is nothing. Respecting life is the basic. If we cannot respect the life of the unborn, we will not respect any life. Facts prove this. The Obama care not only funds abortion but also destroys seniors’ lives. People 65 or above are rationed, they will be denied for treatment and let to die. That is another form of killing. The Church, with her wisdom from the Holy Spirit knows well that abortion leads to many other immoral and sinful behaviors.

I know many people are deceived to think national health care is helping the poor. Actually, the Obama care is far from helping the poor. Our current health care system actually takes care of the poor. Before my mother passed away, she did not have any health insurance. The hospital treated her and waived all her medical bills. I have a friend recently accumulated a medical bill of $150,000 and the hospital wrote it off. People are deceived by thinking Obama care will be better, it is not. It kills baby and the aged, casts burden on business and individuals.I just want to share some facts I experienced first hand.

The hospitals do not write off the bill as you seem to think. The state picks up the bill for medical services which means the taxpayer is paying the bill for your mother and your friend. It is not free.

Yes, Matthew 25:35-46 is very important. And our capital society are doing just that. Numerous charities are helping the poor. That is the right way to help the poor - from brotherly love and care, not from big government. When people are depending on government, the society will be paralyzed. If half of the country wait for hand outs, the other half of the country feel resentful for people who refuse to work and wait to be fed, the entire country will collapse and that is what communism is about.
But you had a free handout when you thought the hospital waived the bill. You didn’t even know that this was the problem.
Communist wants the society to be equally poor so people will be totally controlled by the government.

Yes, we can agree to disagree, but the other fold of sheep Jesus was talking about has nothing to do with abortion or Marxism which this administration is heading to.
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No, the cases I talked about was private hospital - Stanford hospital. I don’t think the state will pick up bills from Stanford hospital. The point is the poor are taken care of in current system.
 
PTL said:
No, the cases I talked about was private hospital - Stanford hospital. I don’t think the state will pick up bills from Stanford hospital. The point is the poor are taken care of in current system.
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It doesn’t matter that it is a private hospital. My best friend has a business that processes the bill for those who cannot pay in legalize that makes the state pay for the stay. It is not free nor are the bills waived. they are paid for by taxpayers.
 
PTL said:
No, the cases I talked about was private hospital - Stanford hospital. I don’t think the state will pick up bills from Stanford hospital. The point is the poor are taken care of in current system.
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What do you think happens?
 
I think the hospital itself absorbs the bill. They overcharged to start with. When a patient has no insurance, they absorb it. I am pretty sure a famous private hospital like Stanford gets no government money.
 
PTL said:
I think the hospital itself absorbs the bill. They overcharged to start with. When a patient has no insurance, they absorb it. I am pretty sure a famous private hospital like Stanford gets no government money.
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You would assume incorrectly. they petition the state for reimbursement and the tax payers pick up the bill.
 
Hmm… I’ll try to call them and ask the question. But I am not sure if I can get anywhere or if they are willing to release the information though…
 
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