Beck: Help us restore traditional American values

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Do you have any evidence for this? Why do you judge people and assume that they have ignoble motives without addressing the substance of their arguments?
I was trying to edit my post as it did appear to convey the presumption of stereotype, but I was timed out.

Name another motive that aptly describes why one group of people think its okay for the government to forcefully remove another group’s income and distribute it in a way that the former group has no say over?

I.e., Group A has more, Group B has less, so the government should take from Group A and give it to Group B. Sounds pretty fair and just…if you’re in Group B. If you’re in Group A, it sound alot like theft. What is the primary motivator of theft? Envy.
 
He never said that government should or must play a role either. One would think that if it was a mandatory function of state to take care of the poor, Christ would have let us know. Rather, he told us that it was our personal responsibility to care for the poor…
And when not enough persons are willing to make it their responsibilty or if the need is far greater than personal responsibilty is able to handle alone, we then just I guess do nothing else to try to serve the poor. But whether that is upholding Christian values or not is something I seriously question.
 
Thanks for proving my point: the criminalization of politics will be a constant downward spiral that will continue to destroy the ability of Americans to work together.

I don’t think other countries engage in this foolishness.
I couldn’t agree more. Behind all this thread’s arguments’ specificity, the thing to which I really violently object is the immature, apocalyptic hysteria that results when one’s political opponents are in power. As I said above, to speak of secession right now is just as absurd, offensive, and ideological as the far left’s denunciation of President Bush as a “war criminal” during his administration.
I want everyone who earns income to pay their fair share of taxes. Class warfare is envy, regardless of how righteous you try to make yourself sound.
Wait, I’m not expert on these economic issues, and I may have misunderstood the post to which you were responding with the above quote. If so, please correct me, but I have to ask: how does letting the Bush tax cuts expire constitute “class warfare”?

I know to stop taking an economic discussion seriously when its participants act like the two and *only *two possibilities are total cutthroat neo-liberalism or complete and utter socialism.

Case in point: this reply. :rolleyes:
What I would prefer is the Democrats drop their talking point about the Republicans wanting to keep tax breaks for millionaires and billionaireswhen what we are actually talking about taxing people who are solidly middle-class
You seriously don’t think someone with an annual income of $250,000 counts as rich?
 
$250,000 isn’t “solidly middle class.”

In fact, $120,000 isn’t “solidly middle class.” It’s more than double the median.

“Middle class,” if we were going to take the time to define it in terms of income, would have something to do, I would think, with income about the middle of the curve. That would be, in America, $50,000. People who make double, triple, or five times the median aren’t in the middle.

Why are you guys so hung up on this?
🤷 :clapping: :amen:
 
And when not enough persons are willing to make it their responsibilty or if the need is far greater than personal responsibilty is able to handle alone, we then just I guess do nothing else to try to serve the poor. But whether that is upholding Christian values or not is something I seriously question.
I have a better idea, lets get the government to MAKE people take care of the poor, whether they are Christian or not. We won’t require anyone to actually BE christian, but us Christians will make you act like one whether you agree or not.
 
I have no doubt that the justice department investigated all this and more when Holder took office. Having found there was no there there they quietly dropped it.
I don’t remember anyone testifying? Do you? I could be wrong.
 
I hardly envy the rich. I don’t want it to be harder for me to get to heaven than it is for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle. I only want the rich to pay higher rates than under Dubya when ya’ll are crying deficits for example. Tha’s all. God bless you and peace.
If you were not aware, forcing your neighbor to be charitable and pay a heavier tax burden while you pine about your house losing 75% of its value is probably not what Jesus meant by helping the poor.
😉
 
Is he a consumer of tax benefits? Probably more so than you are. So why shouldn’t he pay fairly into a system he uses more of than you or I do?
He does pay fairly into the tax system. He’s a citizen. Just like you, or me, he is entitled to government services. Government doesn’t work on a fee for service basis. If it did, we wouldn’t be talking about tax. If you think it should, fine, but it doesn’t have anything to do with tax policy.

The fact is, he only has so much money, before he ends up on the welfare rolls, or, in your world, on charity. You can’t get blood out of a turnip. He has kids. He needs to save for retirement, just as I do. He lacks those resources, and taxing him will only make it worse, make him a drain on society’s resources.

Now, I could take the position that people who make $25,000 are just losers, or they should work harder. But the economy is a pyramid. It functions by having a large number of unskilled workers, fewer skilled workers, and fewer owners. Wealth is relative. You can’t appreciate merit and wealth, except in comparison to average, and to failure. People on the bottom can’t pay more. The rest of us can.
Lest we forget, a significant chunk of that population
I have no idea what the statistics are on “small business,” and those who quote those stats are not using terms with any precision. The Democrats claiming someone is rich is a little better defined than the Republicans’ defintion of “small” business.
that earns the magical “rich” level of $250,000 are small business owners who are no incorporated, meaning they pay their business taxes at the personal withholding rate.
If you have that sort of cash flow, and can’t figure out you need to spend $500 on forming a corporation or LLC, you are really too stupid to be in business. The tax code is designed to provide businesses tax advantages over individuals. I’m not really sure what you mean, anyway. So, there’s some guy running a manufacturing outfit, he’s pulling $250,000 out net of his basic expenses, and I’m supposed to feel sorry for him because he hasn’t sheltered any of that income? If he sheltered that income, how much more cash would he have? Doesn’t he engage in a little business planning, so he’s saved up for new equipment? If that person really exists, he isn’t poor and he isn’t middle class. He could be better off if he spent $800 on some accounting advice.

It gets tiresome anyway - no matter what the tax is, it hurts some portion of the economy. No matter what a spending cut is, it hurts some individual. Whenever you tax or spend or cut taxes or cut spending, there’s something someone could complain about. We aren’t going to solve the problems of this country without sacrifice. My guess is you will never accept any tax, except a flat tax. I hate to break it to you: the flat tax won’t happen, and even if it did, it would make zero difference in your life. So, there’s not much point in worrying over it.

Progressive income tax has been around since 1913. Go look up the distribution of wealth in America. It isn’t hurting anyone. There is plenty of opportunity in this country, plenting of people doing better than average. Business people and upper income people aren’t persecuted in this country. To call progressive taxation “class warfare” is beyond laughable.

Once again, I have no idea what you are talking about. You seem very angry at “problems” that are entirely imaginary.
 
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You seriously don’t think someone with an annual income of $250,000 counts as rich?
Depends on their location, their job, how many employees they have. I’ve seen a company owner who grossed over a three quarter million a year and didn’t pay himself a dime.
 
And when not enough persons are willing to make it their responsibilty or if the need is far greater than personal responsibilty is able to handle alone, we then just I guess do nothing else to try to serve the poor. But whether that is upholding Christian values or not is something I seriously question.
And what is the “nothing else”?

I believe the phase “nothing else” refers to government confiscation of income by force. I’m sorry, that’s not the definition of charity. And any attempt by you to describe mandatory taxes as charity is absurd.

I accept that we have different opinions about progressive taxation. However, manipulating the teachings of Christ in order to defend the confiscation of income by force is wrong.
 
Fone Bone 2001,

Speaking of restoring traditional values, don’t you think your user name is a bit inappropriate for this forum?
 
I’m certain you meant to say voting for a role of government to play. And who says that is not the right thing to do? The priest at my local parish who says his answer to the poor is to get a job? Or Jesus who had additional answers besides that one? Jesus never said leave it all to the free enterprise private sector. He also never said governement could not play a role.
I do.

There are two options, enslave other people to do your bidding, which is what you feel is the right thing to do.

Or let everyone live freely, in a “free country”, allow them to help the poor on their own dime. Whether or not they are Christian. If they do, surely they will be rewarded, if they do not then they will pay.

My beliefs do not limit you in any way, yours limit me.
 
Is he a consumer of tax benefits? Probably more so than you are. So why shouldn’t he pay fairly into a system he uses more of than you or I do? Lest we forget, a significant chunk of that population that earns the magical “rich” level of $250,000 are small business owners who are no incorporated, meaning they pay their business taxes at the personal withholding rate. If they have to pay more taxes, then that is less that they have to invest in expanding their business, buying equipment, and hiring employees.

ANd if you want to pay more in taxes, GREAT! I say we establish a minimum tax rate for everyone who earns income, and then if you want to pay more, then it is completely voluntary! Just send a check to Uncle Sam with a note that says “Please take this money and use as you deem appropriate.”
Because if he has to pay more tax, that defeats the purpose. He is going to need more benefits then when he has less of his $25,000 to barely make ends meet. And by that point he might not even be able to barely make his rent. So then what. You then have added to the homeless rolls. Then he might at that point not be able to hold onto his job. You know being homeless and all and trying to get adequate rest and having all those comforts of living out of a cardboard box on a street corner to get ready for work with.

And you on the otherhand aren’t willing to pay higher taxes and want some guy making $25,000 to pay the same rate as you but as a result we’ve created someone who needs further assistance. And don’t give me individuals alone can handle it. Individuals who aren’t even willing to collectively pay more taxes, aren’t going to singlehandedly keep this guy going. If that were the case poverty would have nearly been wiped off the face of the earth many yrs ago. Individuals afterall have had over 2000 yrs.
 
Because if he has to pay more tax, that defeats the purpose. He is going to need more benefits then when he has less of his $25,000 to barely make ends meet. And by that point he might not even be able to barely make his rent. So then what. You then have added to the homeless rolls. Then he might at that point not be able to hold onto his job. You know being homeless and all and trying to get adequate rest and having all those comforts of living out of a cardboard box on a street corner to get ready for work with.

And you on the otherhand aren’t willing to pay higher taxes and want some guy making $25,000 to pay the same rate as you but as a result we’ve created someone who needs further assistance. And don’t give me individuals alone can handle it. Individuals who aren’t even willing to collectively pay more taxes, aren’t going to singlehandedly keep this guy going. If that were the case poverty would have nearly been wiped off the face of the earth many yrs ago. Individuals afterall have had over 2000 yrs.
You’re leaving out the importance of incentive. The demand for government will never be reduced when 50% of American workers do not pay income tax. When government benefits become more costly, a worker becomes more frugal with money and more careful about ringing up unaffordable debt. The problems we face today stem from a lack of personal responsibility and an unwillingness to pay for the costs of maintaining one’s lifestyle. In short, government subsidies through progressive taxation have created an artificial demand for government and a culture of dependency.

There should be one flat tax rate and one standard deduction.
 
Because if he has to pay more tax, that defeats the purpose. He is going to need more benefits then when he has less of his $25,000 to barely make ends meet. And by that point he might not even be able to barely make his rent. So then what. You then have added to the homeless rolls. Then he might at that point not be able to hold onto his job. You know being homeless and all and trying to get adequate rest and having all those comforts of living out of a cardboard box on a street corner to get ready for work with.

And you on the otherhand aren’t willing to pay higher taxes and want some guy making $25,000 to pay the same rate as you but as a result we’ve created someone who needs further assistance. And don’t give me individuals alone can handle it. Individuals who aren’t even willing to collectively pay more taxes, aren’t going to singlehandedly keep this guy going. If that were the case poverty would have nearly been wiped off the face of the earth many yrs ago. Individuals afterall have had over 2000 yrs.
If he makes 25 an hour, he makes more than me. Quite a bit more actually. I would trade paying a small percentage of income tax, 10 to 15% wouldnt be so bad to go to pay for the defense of this country and support a government that operated within it’s enumerated powers.

But, since they take all that other stuff out it makes it tough. Yes, I do get my personal back at the end of the year, would be nice if they would send a thank you note for the interest free loan they took out of my paycheck, but I wouldnt want taxpayer money to go to that kind of waste either.

But at my hourly wage, I’m still paying for it indirectly.
 
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