Before the 60's, was the Tridentine Mass celebrated perfectly perfect in every way?

[Chatter163]

The main abuse of the Tridentine Mass was celebrating Low Mass so rapidly. This happened fairly frequently.

But, as a rule, there were few other abuses because the rubrics allowed so little latitude. There were no options or choices of prayers, no calls for the priest to use “these or similar words,” and basically no opportunity for the priest to let his own personality shine through.

 

[jbuck919]

I only just saw this thread so I hope I am forgiven for responding without reading the intermediate posts, which I normally do not do.

The short answer is that no one knows because the Tridentine Mass was read so that only the priest and the altar boys (as they were called then) could hear it. A second perhaps more useful answer is that it was done to perfection according to the custom of “God can understand badly pronounced Latin delivered at any speed and in general without comprehension.” For low Masses more than 40 years ago (in the US anyway) , those are about the only valid answers. People infected with nostalgia for those “good old days” tend to forget that the Church did indeed make a jump–from the frying pan into the fire.

 

[az_4_faith]

If I could change anything in the N.O. Mass, I would turn the priest back around facing the tabernacle (placed at the top or above the altar) and the altar, and give him a good sound system so that everyone can hear what he is saying, loudly and clearly.

By having the priest face the people, he became an instant celebrity (celebrant). Suddenly, he felt the need to convey his feelings through expressions (hand-movements, body postures, turning from side to side while praying so that the people “feel included” - also has contributed to people returning his gestures). This led to the focus of the mass being on the priest, instead of what he was doing (offering a sacrifice on behalf of himself and the people). I think because of this, too many priests are very happy with being the celebrity, instead of celebrant.

A priest once told me how uncomfortable it is to proclaim the Gloria while everyone is looking towards the sanctuary (and at him), and he has to look at the people, while trying to be solemn and reverant. He said he’d much rather face the sanctuary (the altar and tabernacle and crucifix) WITH the congregation, that he feels totally out of place during that particular moment of the Mass.

 

[ncjohn]

As one who served at many TLM’s pre-Vatican 2, I can tell you that it was abused all the time, especially at early morning masses.

No, it wasn’t abused (as far as I know) by skipping prayers. It was however abused by being rushed through in way designed to just get people in and out of their “Sunday obligation” as quickly as possible. The responses of the altar boy were often just spoken right over by the next lines of the priest, and skipping the homily altogether at those early morning masses was not unusual, and they often more closely resembled a weekday mass than a Sunday liturgy. I certainly won’t claim that my experience was the norm, but I found it without exception in every parish which I attended.

Homiles, in my experience, were no better or worse than they are now. There were good homilists, who could speak to the application of the Word in our lives, and there were those who were dry as sandpaper.

I think that the TLM celebrated today is almost surely much more reverent and much better done, if for no other reason than it is celebrated by priests who really *want *to do it, and attended by people who really want to be there. If it were to once again become the sole vehicle, I promise you that you would see the same complaints about lack of reverence, etc that you currently see about the N.O. masses. I firmly believe that that seemingly lower degree of reverence is more reflective of the fact that people just doing their “Sunday obligation” are doing it at N.O. masses rather than TLM’s than it is an indication that there is anything inherently less reverent about the N.O.

By the way, i really do question the statement I hear made here all the time, and which seems to be accepted as “conventional wisdom”, that all the catechesis since Vatican 2 has been horrible and that we essentially lost a whole generation.

The time after Vatican 2 has been a time of society moving to greater prosperity, and much greater mobility than the time prior. The predominantly “Catholic communities” that existed in this country prior to that bred a type of “small town” atmosphere in which Catholic education thrived and which people knew each other and tended more to stay in one place. This led to great stability and reinforcement of the values learned. We now tend to move around much more, with a result that that Catholic community does not exist to any great extent any more. And with that, except in larger cities, it seems that Catholic education has also gone substantially down.

I have not found the quality of catechesis to be the issue so much as the lack of quantity that one got through the Catholic education system, coupled with the community’s affirmation of what you learned. The parishes my kids were raised in had excellent catechesis, but it took a lot of work on our part to reinforce that since they were in public schools which didn’t reinforce it and living in ever-changing communities, which also didn’t reinforce it.

The one part I do have to agree with is that there are a lot of people who don’t know much about their faith. I don’t attribute that to a lack of availability of good catechesis though. I truly believe that that is more the result of a generation of people who have succumbed to the glitter of “the world” and lost touch with God. They still attend, at some level, but don’t have an interest in their own catechesis, much less passing on anything of substance to their kids. I saw this reflected often in confirmation classes where kids would show up sporadically and parents made it clear that they expected their kids to be confirmed whether they attended class and mass or not.

In many ways it has just become a cultural expectation, and a reflection of the direction society has moved. It is sad, but I think we do a great disservice to a great number of dedicated catechists to suggest that the quality is poor.

Peace,

 

[Shoshana]

I fully agree with what ncjohn says here. When I went to go hear Fr Corapi in Rochester, NY, he said that the Tridentine Mass ‘seemed’ whatever adjective you want to put here. More’pious’, more ‘orthodox’, more’catholic’…etc. He has so much wisdom.

He also said that Catholics seem to grow intellectually only to a certain point then proceed only emotionally. I fully agree with him on these two points. Part of the Vatican 11 Council (which he said was inspired by the Holy Spirit and anyone who says differently is not from the "spirit), we were to be treated as adults. We were to take responsibility for our faith in doing the things that needs to be done with our faith but also to learn about It by reading the many books that we possess as a peope of God. Mainly the new Catechism. On the whole, most people don’t even bother to read…I see this in my world very much. They may buy the books but they sit on their shelves looking pretty.

He also said that we must study our faith to always be prepared for the many struggles that may come about…

This is all I have to say…

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

we had an older priest who said daily Mass, we loved him because we were guaranteed to get out in 17 minutes flat, which gave us time to hit the bakery on the corner before school started.

I bet I am not the only kid whose dad chose the shortest available Mass on Sunday, and would have to be dragged kicking and screaming to the High Mass (choir, sung gloria, at least 15-20 minutes longer than a Low Mass).

Somewhere is another thread where I posted about a priest who scandalized the good sisters of our school with a 7 minute Mass, start to finish. So- no.

 

[netmilsmom]

By the way, i really do question the statement I hear made here all the time, and which seems to be accepted as “conventional wisdom”, that all the catechesis since Vatican 2 has been horrible and that we essentially lost a whole generation…

I have not found the quality of catechesis to be the issue so much as the lack of quantity that one got through the Catholic education system, coupled with the community’s affirmation of what you learned. The parishes my kids were raised in had excellent catechesis, but it took a lot of work on our part to reinforce that since they were in public schools which didn’t reinforce it and living in ever-changing communities, which also didn’t reinforce it.<<

(hi John )

I have respectfully disagree.
The niece and nephew that I help to raise attended the same Catholic grade school as I did. 1967 through 1976, I was taught by Felician Sisters and some lay teachers. We used the St. Joseph Catechism.

By the time my niece (1982) entered the school, and a lay woman was the principal, they never touched the Catechism. Everything was a “WWJD” thing. From the first grade of “God made the flowers and God made the trees” to the eighth grade of “the power of the Holy Spirit will lead you through life”, NOTHING of the CCC was taught. We constantly lived Catholic. Attended Mass as we should, confession (well communal confession because we were told that was right) and communion. The only thing these kids knew about being Catholic was from us, not the best Catholic school in the area. (The girl is now Wiccan and the boy is nothing. Pretty horrifying for their Great-Uncle)

Fast forward to 1999 when my own daughter entered Catechism. Again, “God made the Flowers and God made the trees.” NOTHING from the CCC. The program was almost identical to the Lutheran School at the corner but cost 90.00 a year. I thank Our Lord every day that I was lead to my parish and I no longer have to “unteach” what they were teaching my kids. For example, during the lesson in first grade about the miracle of the Eucharist, a boy asked, “Is it really blood?”
The teacher said, “No,” and went from there. No other explaination about substance just “no”.
As the assistant in the classroom, I nearly had a heart attack.

Unless a program is teaching the CCC, the kids don’t get it. Most of the programs touch on it but don’t teach it, if that.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

(hi John )

I have respectfully disagree.
The niece and nephew that I help to raise attended the same Catholic grade school as I did. 1967 through 1976, I was taught by Felician Sisters and some lay teachers. We used the St. Joseph Catechism.

By the time my niece (1982) entered the school, and a lay woman was the principal, they never touched the Catechism. Everything was a “WWJD” thing. From the first grade of “God made the flowers and God made the trees” to the eighth grade of “the power of the Holy Spirit will lead you through life”, NOTHING of the CCC was taught. We constantly lived Catholic. Attended Mass as we should, confession (well communal confession because we were told that was right) and communion. The only thing these kids knew about being Catholic was from us, not the best Catholic school in the area. (The girl is now Wiccan and the boy is nothing. Pretty horrifying for their Great-Uncle)

Fast forward to 1999 when my own daughter entered Catechism. Again, “God made the Flowers and God made the trees.” NOTHING from the CCC. The program was almost identical to the Lutheran School at the corner but cost 90.00 a year. I thank Our Lord every day that I was lead to my parish and I no longer have to “unteach” what they were teaching my kids. For example, during the lesson in first grade about the miracle of the Eucharist, a boy asked, “Is it really blood?”
The teacher said, “No,” and went from there. No other explaination about substance just “no”.
As the assistant in the classroom, I nearly had a heart attack.

Unless a program is teaching the CCC, the kids don’t get it. Most of the programs touch on it but don’t teach it, if that.

Just a little note…since the English version of the CCC was promulgated in 1997, this is hardly conclusive.

 

[netmilsmom]

Just a little note…since the English version of the CCC was promulgated in 1997, this is hardly conclusive.

The St. Joseph Catechism was “revised” in 1976 according to Catholic Book Publishing Company. It’s been available long before this. It was the adjusted version of the Baltimore Cathechism that was used in schools since at least the 30’s when my mother was in school.
Even if the official CCC wasn’t in English, most people in the authority to develop curriculm for a parish understood or could get translations of the Latin.

I don’t understand your point.

 

[1ke]

In addition to the already mentioned issues of the speed-mass, the TLM also had the issue of not being able to hear or understand the priest, which led to the abuse by the laity of not praying the at all Mass but rather attending to private devotions such as the Rosary during Mass. The ringing of the bells at the consecration, for many people, was the only time they “tuned in” at Mass.

Also, very few people received Communion regularly.

The reforms were needed, IMHO.

 

[az_4_faith]

So . . . maybe the people who are fervent supporters and attendees at the Tridentine liturgies (both approved and non-approved) might fall under the category of "don’t appreciate what you’ve got until it’s gone . . . "

I have to agree with the poster who said that the new priests celebrating the Tridentine rite want to celebrate it, and those who attend, likewise.

Cause it sounds like there may have been quite a few problems with “routine” when the Mass was celebrated back then.

It’s funny, when I asked my parents and grandparents how they weathered the changes of Vatican II, the only thing that they really replied in unison was that now they could understand the Mass since it was in English.

From that, I was under the impression that no one really knew what was being said at the Tridentine Mass of my youth.

Until I was asked to attend a private Tridentine Mass (with our bishop’s approval) with our parish priest and one other person, given a missal to follow with the responses, and much to my surprise, the English translation was right alongside the Latin. And this was a very old missal.

I laughed then at the notion of no one knowing what was going on. It was very easy to follow, reading along. But I have to admit that I do have a couple of years of Latin under my belt, and I was well within earshot of the priest.

 

[netmilsmom]

It’s funny, when I asked my parents and grandparents how they weathered the changes of Vatican II, the only thing that they really replied in unison was that now they could understand the Mass since it was in English.

From that, I was under the impression that no one really knew what was being said at the Tridentine Mass of my youth.

That is funny because I personally remember my father in 1968 stating that, while he would always attend whatever mass they threw at him, he didn’t like this new one because it sounded and felt like a service that his father’s family went to. Protestant.

My mother went along but kept getting farther and farther to the back of the church until she was perfectly happy standing outside when the doors were open during the summer, smoking a cigarette and watching the whole thing.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

That is funny because I personally remember my father in 1968 stating that, while he would always attend whatever mass they threw at him, he didn’t like this new one because it sounded and felt like a service that his father’s family went to. Protestant.

My mother went along but kept getting farther and farther to the back of the church until she was perfectly happy standing outside when the doors were open during the summer, smoking a cigarette and watching the whole thing.

You’re going to get people on both sides that have an opinion. It’s nothing like a protestant service (I’ve been to tons), but there are Protestant services that resemble our Mass. Why? Because they have common roots. They came from US.

 

[az_4_faith]

Sorry to say, neither of my parents attend Mass anymore, for over ten years. Breaks my heart.

 

[netmilsmom]

Also, very few people received Communion regularly.

You and I are the same age. From the masses that I can remember, our Altar rails were full.
As were our confessions, something you see sparsely today.

 

[palmas85]

Many people are very strongly opinionated when it comes to their preference for the Church’s liturgy pre-Second Vatican Council, the Tridentine Mass.

My question is this: was the Tridentine Mass that was the norm for the Church before the early 60’s always celebrated perfectly in every way?

Did priests ever alter the Mass – i.e. skip parts, change the words, add or subtract anything, add their own personalities to it’s form, etc. in the same way that many have a field day with the NO Mass?

Or are those who remember the Tridentine Mass and strongly prefer it to anything they see today guilty of remembering through rose-colored glasses?

Was it truly unalterable, free from all abuse, and presented perfectly at each Mass?

You mean the Traditional Mass wasn’t always perfect??

OH NO!!!:bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes:

Of course it wsn’t always perfect. I served Mass for the better part of 10 years, all of it under the Traditional Mass, some of it prior to the revised Holy Week in 55:thumbsup: . and I will be the fiest to tell you it wasn’t always perfect. Heck we had one Priest who routinely showed up so drunk or hung over he could barely stand up and he often forgpt things or moved things around. I don’t think it was intentional, and we always manged to have two of us there, older servers, to kind of carry him through. He was a good man, but very sad and very weak. May he rest in peace.

But I will tell you, there were no five minute speed Masses despite the protestations of some who claim that the friend of a friend of their Grandfather told them about it. Kneeling close as we did, I could hear the Priest say the consecration and I never heard one say bread thou art and bread thou will remain or anything remotely like that as some such as Martin Luther claim and I never saw one skip entire sections of the prayers he was supposed to say, although some of them did say them very fast.
I also never saw any of the following:
1 Never saw a Church that did not have a Crucifix either on the Altar or in rhe Sanctuary
2 Never saw altar cloths that did not match the Liturgical season. As an example rainbow hued for Dignity Masses or black on Halloween I also never saw Mass celebrated without an altar cloth at all or using burlap bags instead, even when I was overseas in the military. Never saw a plastic table cloth with Little Kitty pictures used either.
3 Never saw incense being burned in a bowl and carried about the altar and then placed in the center of it during the Mass
4 Never saw the Holy Trinity referred to as the Creator, the Reedeemer and the Sanctifier
5 Never saw a Mass begin with an invocation to the elders, lighting tobacco and then using an eagle feather to brush the snoke in the four cardinal directions calling for blessings from the ancestors and the creator God.
6 Never saw the Epistle come from a book such as Solidarity With Nicaragua or The Co-Existance of Catholicism and Marxism
7 Never saw the Gospel proclaimed by a lay person, male or female, never heard the Gospel proclaimed from the aisle, while the Priest was moving about the church or while he was dancing or while members of the congregation danced or a dance troupe or even an acrobatic troupe performed.
8 Never saw a sermon delivered under any of the above circumstances and never saw one proclaimed under a banner that read things like, Choice for All, Female Ordination Now or Dignity Means You
9 Never saw corn tortillas, onion bagels raison bread or choclate cake used for the Host and duly consecrated by the Priest/ Never saw the gifts being stored and carried in clay pots, plastic pitchers, tupperwear, wicker baskets or a sack
10 Never heard the Our Father prayed with the words Our Father Mother here among, great is your name inserted
11 Never saw altar servers or members of the congregation commune each other
12 Never saw communion refused to someone because they did not or could not kneel at the altar rail
13 Never saw the altar servers or lay people either remove the Eucharist from the Tabernacle or repalce it there
14 Never saw people stand around and talk after receiving Holy Communion
15 Never saw the Priest leave the Mass before the final blessing, change into a barney costume and return to offer a Barney blessing
16 Never heard the congregation answer anything to the final blessing except amen.

Yet I have seen everyone of these things in the Pauline Rite, personally.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

You mean the Traditional Mass wasn’t always perfect??

OH NO!!!:bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes:

Of course it wsn’t always perfect. I served Mass for the better part of 10 years, all of it under the Traditional Mass, some of it prior to the revised Holy Week in 55:thumbsup: . and I will be the fiest to tell you it wasn’t always perfect. Heck we had one Priest who routinely showed up so drunk or hung over he could barely stand up and he often forgpt things or moved things around. I don’t think it was intentional, and we always manged to have two of us there, older servers, to kind of carry him through. He was a good man, but very sad and very weak. May he rest in peace.

But I will tell you, there were no five minute speed Masses despite the protestations of some who claim that the friend of a friend of their Grandfather told them about it. Kneeling close as we did, I could hear the Priest say the consecration and I never heard one say bread thou art and bread thou will remain or anything remotely like that as some such as Martin Luther claim and I never saw one skip entire sections of the prayers he was supposed to say, although some of them did say them very fast.
I also never saw any of the following:
1 Never saw a Church that did not have a Crucifix either on the Altar or in rhe Sanctuary
2 Never saw altar cloths that did not match the Liturgical season. As an example rainbow hued for Dignity Masses or black on Halloween I also never saw Mass celebrated without an altar cloth at all or using burlap bags instead, even when I was overseas in the military. Never saw a plastic table cloth with Little Kitty pictures used either.
3 Never saw incense being burned in a bowl and carried about the altar and then placed in the center of it during the Mass
4 Never saw the Holy Trinity referred to as the Creator, the Reedeemer and the Sanctifier
5 Never saw a Mass begin with an invocation to the elders, lighting tobacco and then using an eagle feather to brush the snoke in the four cardinal directions calling for blessings from the ancestors and the creator God.
6 Never saw the Epistle come from a book such as Solidarity With Nicaragua or The Co-Existance of Catholicism and Marxism
7 Never saw the Gospel proclaimed by a lay person, male or female, never heard the Gospel proclaimed from the aisle, while the Priest was moving about the church or while he was dancing or while members of the congregation danced or a dance troupe or even an acrobatic troupe performed.
8 Never saw a sermon delivered under any of the above circumstances and never saw one proclaimed under a banner that read things like, Choice for All, Female Ordination Now or Dignity Means You
9 Never saw corn tortillas, onion bagels raison bread or choclate cake used for the Host and duly consecrated by the Priest/ Never saw the gifts being stored and carried in clay pots, plastic pitchers, tupperwear, wicker baskets or a sack
10 Never heard the Our Father prayed with the words Our Father Mother here among, great is your name inserted
11 Never saw altar servers or members of the congregation commune each other
12 Never saw communion refused to someone because they did not or could not kneel at the altar rail
13 Never saw the altar servers or lay people either remove the Eucharist from the Tabernacle or repalce it there
14 Never saw people stand around and talk after receiving Holy Communion
15 Never saw the Priest leave the Mass before the final blessing, change into a barney costume and return to offer a Barney blessing
16 Never heard the congregation answer anything to the final blessing except amen.

Yet I have seen everyone of these things in the Pauline Rite, personally.

Yet none of these things is interal to the Pauline Rite itself. All of this is part of the “silly season” that is passing (alright…HOPEFULLY passing).

 

[az_4_faith]

Yet none of these things is interal to the Pauline Rite itself. All of this is part of the “silly season” that is passing (alright…HOPEFULLY passing).

This is my thought exactly.

The problem isn’t with the rite itself, but with how it has been allowed to be executed, and those who have been allowed to get away with “anything goes” within the N.O. Mass.

If all of us, pro-Tridentine and pro-ORTHODOX Novus Ordo Masses supporters would band together to demand/insist that the Mass be celebrated with reverance, rather than dividing up amongst ourselves, maybe we could affect something. I think we really are on the same page fundamentally.

I’ve been to very traditional, orthodox N.O. Masses that have sent chills up my spine and tears of joy to my eyes. I felt like a part of the heavenly liturgy. Unfortunately, they are not the norm. I’m very leary of going to Mass where I don’t know the priests, because I’ve witnessed alot of really, really ridiculous stuff going on within the Mass.

Do priests/bishops really have any idea what kind of scandal this stuff brings to the faithful, and do they care?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

This is my thought exactly.

The problem isn’t with the rite itself, but with how it has been allowed to be executed, and those who have been allowed to get away with “anything goes” within the N.O. Mass.

If all of us, pro-Tridentine and pro-ORTHODOX Novus Ordo Masses supporters would band together to demand/insist that the Mass be celebrated with reverance, rather than dividing up amongst ourselves, maybe we could affect something. I think we really are on the same page fundamentally.

I’ve been to very traditional, orthodox N.O. Masses that have sent chills up my spine and tears of joy to my eyes. I felt like a part of the heavenly liturgy. Unfortunately, they are not the norm. I’m very leary of going to Mass where I don’t know the priests, because I’ve witnessed alot of really, really ridiculous stuff going on within the Mass.

Do priests/bishops really have any idea what kind of scandal this stuff brings to the faithful, and do they care?

Actually, here’s what I’m hoping: the broader use of the TLM will tighten up the celebrations of the NO. Hopefully, proximity will produce good results.

 

[palmas85]

Yet none of these things is interal to the Pauline Rite itself. All of this is part of the “silly season” that is passing (alright…HOPEFULLY passing).

I know that Kirk. I never said they were and you of all people know I don’t think they are. The question wasn’t about that though… The question was if the Traditional Rite was always celebrated perfectly in every instance. I admitted it wasn’t, supplied the worse abuse I ever saw, if you can call it an abuse, and merely pointed out some of the things that I never saw happen at the Traditional that I have personally seen at the Pauline.

Since they did not happen in the Traditional but they have happened and continue to happen in the Pauline it shows me that either there is something wrong in

1 the structure of the Pauline itself, which I doubt, or

2 something is wrong with the attitude that so many people who support it have for it. I do believe that

Can that attitude be cured by wholescale implementation of the Traditional Rite? Who knows? Academic question really since it isn’t going to happen.

But in honesty Kirk, couild that option really make things worse than they are in some places now? You tell me Kirk, could it?