Before the 60's, was the Tridentine Mass celebrated perfectly perfect in every way?

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djrakowski said:
Actually, I suspect many would start attending Assumption Grotto. Thanks be to God that we have at least a few choices in the Archdiocese, though in some areas, folks have to travel to find anything close to what we have.
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Well, we do have lots of crossovers. But how many new families can the Grotto take?
That church in Frasier may look real good to some who don’t know.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
Well, we do have lots of crossovers. But how many new families can the Grotto take?
That church in Frasier may look real good to some who don’t know.
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Perhaps you’re right… but we don’t need to worry about that. I think we’re in good shape for many, many more years to come.

And maybe folks would attend one of the St. Joseph/St. Josaphat/Swwetest Heart of Mary cluster parishes. The priests - Frs. Borkowski and Ward - are about as good as it gets.
 
djrakowski said:
Perhaps you’re right… but we don’t need to worry about that. I think we’re in good shape for many, many more years to come.

And maybe folks would attend one of the St. Joseph/St. Josaphat/Sweetest Heart of Mary cluster parishes. The priests - Frs. Borkowski and Ward - are about as good as it gets.
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Or maybe Our Lord could levitate one of those churches to our location and solve everyone’s problems. 😃

I have a friend who would travel down to St. Florian’s to support the innercity parish. It just got to be too much. In many ways, we Catholics are a lazy bunch. I see many parishioners rationalizing and going to a local parish. Then complaining. A lot.
 
az_4_faith said:
(Merry Christmas and Bless you, my friend)

Thank you for your kind words, Netmil(name removed by moderator).

Our parish is over 60 years old, so pastors have come and gone.

What’s really sad is once you’ve had such a good thing, you don’t want to turn back the clock and settle for mediocre.

I offer it up and I hope our new pastor is being transformed by our congregation the way our old pastor transformed us. Maybe that was our bishop’s hope in placing him with us.

In the meantime, I also catch the Sunday morning TV broadcast of the Catholic Mass filmed at the Cathedral. Our former pastor, the new rector, usually is the main celebrant for the broadcast, and this is how his presence is being shared with the entire diocese in an unique way – Mass for shut-ins. I’ve heard so many people comment about how much they look forward to watching these Masses on TV now because of him.

I wish everyone had the experience of attending the NO Masses that I have with our former pastor. Maybe the issue wouldn’t be about Tridentine vs. NO if everyone could see how beautifully the NO COULD be celebrated.
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I’ve been told by a seminarian that for the 7pm Mass at the Cathedral that the Rector (your former pastor) will be offering the Mass in the ad orientem posture.

The seminarian will be an acolyte for the Mass.
 
Also, I know the Cathedral is built to face ad orientum (except it has the NO altar), but what is one to do when their parish is built facing SOUTH! What were they thinking?
 
Oh man, did I pick the wrong year to host Christmas Eve at my house!!
 
az_4_faith said:
Also, I know the Cathedral is built to face ad orientum (except it has the NO altar), but what is one to do when their parish is built facing SOUTH! What were they thinking?
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Consider the time in which it was built and then you’ll know what they were thinking.😃
 
Locally speaking, I have one other thing to say.

Wait until the seminarians who have entered seminary in the last couple of years are ordained, I think that you will be most pleasantly surprised.😉 😃
 
I guess it went south along with everything else then!

You know, we’re going to be building an additional Church for the parish in South Chandler. I guess my two cents added should insist that it face east!

I’ll betcha hardly anyone will know why! Guess it’s time for a little edumacation.
 
You know, that’s something else we lost when our former pastor left.

When he was with us, the parish had to buy a house across the street from the Church in order to house the seminarians that were always staying with us.

I just recently learned that the house is now an office for administrators – no more Seminarians. 😦
 
az_4_faith said:
You know, that’s something else we lost when our former pastor left.

When he was with us, the parish had to buy a house across the street from the Church in order to house the seminarians that were always staying with us.

I just recently learned that the house is now an office for administrators – no more Seminarians. 😦
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I know isn’t it amazing what an orthodox traditional priest can do for vocations.

However, at least we still have the vocations producer (haha) still in the Diocese!

Sadly, another vocations producer (pastor of St. Thomas the Apostle) is being Vicar of Priests in January I hope that his less visibility in parish life does not reduce vocations, however I trust the Bishop’s judgement on these matters.
 
You know, getting back on topic, the reason I started this thread was to learn from those who are so adamantly opposed to the NO Mass whether or not their devotion to the Tridentine Mass is due to its form, disgust with the way the NO Mass is celebrated or simply out of nostalgia.

I didn’t expect the pre-60’s Tridentine Mass to be perfect, but I’ve never heard anyone ever say anything bad about it, other than folks saying they could never understand it.

One thing I found interesting is that a few folks said that if a priest skipped a part of the Mass, everyone knew it.

My question is: what would the people have done if a priest skipped a part of the Tridentine Mass? Would they have called him on it, or PUT UP WITH IT LIKE MOST EVERYONE DOES NOW??!!

Part of the reason that the NO Mass is so unappealing to many is because we have put up with priests who find it their personal playground (and bishops looking the other way).

I do think that this will pass eventually, that the pendulum swings both ways, and I find alot of hope in our newly ordained.

I’ve also noticed that alot of people a generation ahead of me, those in their 60’s and 70’s seem to be alot more tolerant of the abuses found in the NO Mass.
 
az_4_faith said:
You know, getting back on topic, the reason I started this thread was to learn from those who are so adamantly opposed to the NO Mass whether or not their devotion to the Tridentine Mass is due to its form, disgust with the way the NO Mass is celebrated or simply out of nostalgia.

I didn’t expect the pre-60’s Tridentine Mass to be perfect, but I’ve never heard anyone ever say anything bad about it, other than folks saying they could never understand it.

One thing I found interesting is that a few folks said that if a priest skipped a part of the Mass, everyone knew it.

My question is: what would the people have done if a priest skipped a part of the Tridentine Mass? Would they have called him on it, or PUT UP WITH IT LIKE MOST EVERYONE DOES NOW??!!

Part of the reason that the NO Mass is so unappealing to many is because we have put up with priests who find it their personal playground (and bishops looking the other way).

I do think that this will pass eventually, that the pendulum swings both ways, and I find alot of hope in our newly ordained.

I’ve also noticed that alot of people a generation ahead of me, those in their 60’s and 70’s seem to be alot more tolerant of the abuses found in the NO Mass.
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Personally, what I have against the NO is with the philosophy in which it was created.

The philosophy of wiping the slate clean and starting over again is the antithesis of what it means to be Catholic in my opinion.

To disregard what was given to us, is wholly irreverent in my opinion.

With that said, yes, I do think that some things needed to be done in regards to the Liturgy, as Cardinal Ratzinger has said that organic development is necessary. However, the NO was far, far from organic development, not even within the same zipcode. So, in my opinion the creation of the NO was a mistake.

However, for pastoral reasons, I am not for the abolishment/suppression of the NO as it is has been the Normative Mass for 40 years now and it is the only Mass that some people know.

So in that regards, I am for the liberalization of the TLM and a continuous return to the roots for the NO.

Perhaps one of these days, they will once again be similar.
 
az_4_faith said:
Many people are very strongly opinionated when it comes to their preference for the Church’s liturgy pre-Second Vatican Council, the Tridentine Mass.

My question is this: was the Tridentine Mass that was the norm for the Church before the early 60’s always celebrated perfectly in every way?

Did priests ever alter the Mass – i.e. skip parts, change the words, add or subtract anything, add their own personalities to it’s form, etc. in the same way that many have a field day with the NO Mass?

Or are those who remember the Tridentine Mass and strongly prefer it to anything they see today guilty of remembering through rose-colored glasses?

Was it truly unalterable, free from all abuse, and presented perfectly at each Mass?
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In the Tridentine Mass all the actions of the priest are controlled by the Missal.

I have been an altar boy at the Novus Ordo since I was 8 years old and an MC at the Tridentine Mass since I was 33 years old (now 40) and I can tell you the 1962 Missal instructs the priest even where to direct his eyes to look or how to hold his hands in various places and it tells him in Latin in parentheses as he is praying the Mass.

Did any priest go beyond and do things differently than what was instructed in the Roman Missal? They would not know what to do and had no liturgist advisors to tell them what to do- the Roman Missal and the Altar Cards was all they knew.

Ken
 
AmyS said:
I think we will. Because of the good and the bad.
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It is like when a human being breaks a bone. The area where the bone heals becomes the strongest part of the bone.

The Church will learn from the experiments of the aftermath of Vatican II and will rise in splendor for Her King.

Ken
 
I don’t think it was always celebrated perfectly. I mean, the song Silent Night was first played by guitar at mass in 1818. Innovations aren’t always bad.
 
kleary said:
In the Tridentine Mass all the actions of the priest are controlled by the Missal.

IDid any priest go beyond and do things differently than what was instructed in the Roman Missal? They would not know what to do and had no liturgist advisors to tell them what to do- the Roman Missal and the Altar Cards was all they knew.

Ken
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Not in any sense disagreeing with you, the problem was what the missal could still not control. Things like speed of delivery and good pronunciation (not to mention for many priests in terms of the propers and readings just plain comprehension) on the Latin. Of course, my experience was entirely in the US, but there, if a Low Mass went on for more than 45 minutes (and that was stretching it), people would complain about why it took so long. “Er, because I was speaking the Latin at an appropriate speed?” They’d hear from their bishop for that before a modern priest would hear from him for allowing “liturgical dance.” In short, it was a matter of form over substance.

Even as a boy I was pretty close to the priests in my parish at the time the changes began, and they could not wait to have to stop holding the thumb and forefinger together after the consecration, etc., etc., etc. They considered the innovations a liberation, and this, to my mind, is why it was so easy to throw out the baby with the bathwater when, say, Anglicans by and large maintained great dignity and respect for rubrics and order of service in their rituals. As a metaphor for seminary training and then the lives of young curates 50 years ago, take a door that has been bolted shut for centuries from the outside. Somebody comes along and actually cracks it open, and the wild wind blows it off its hinges.
 
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