Before the 60's, was the Tridentine Mass celebrated perfectly perfect in every way?

[Jaxon]

The point isn’t how the Mass was said back in the day. The point is how it is said now. Whether at an SSPX church, an indult Mass or the various wildcat chapels that dot the landscape, it is said with reverence by priests who love it and faithful who appreciate it.

As for “banding together” with NO Catholics…nah. I’ll pass. You guys need to clean up your own house. It’s not my problem and I shouldn’t be expected to clean it up. You made your bed, now lie in it.

But here’s a suggestion, just because I love you in Christ. Tightening up the rubrics won’t matter at all with the NO. You need to eliminate the options. That’s what needs to be done more than anything. As long as you have your plethora of options…well, let’s just say creativity breeds irreverance.

Glad I could help.

 

[SnorterLuster]

This is my thought exactly.

The problem isn’t with the rite itself, but with how it has been allowed to be executed, and those who have been allowed to get away with “anything goes” within the N.O. Mass.

With all due respect, I would maintain that the problem is exactly with the rite itself. All the variations not only allowed, but encouraged. The instructions that have what I call weasel words and phrases that allow the priest to justify almost anything as being allowed. If you want the NO to be the reverent Mass that the TLM is, then the instructions have to have no options, no exceptions and return the focus to God and the sacrifice on the altar–not the celebration of the community.

Yes, I was raised going to the TLM and while I am sure there was probably never a “perfect” Mass, I can say they all followed form and we could follow along in our missals. If the priest skipped something, we would have known it immediately. Buy a missal today and see if any mass follows the form. Priests may have hurried and our daily masses didn’t have sermons, but the fastest mass I remember probably lasted 30 minutes. First fridays the mass always took almost an hour due the the great numbers of us school children going to Communion. Before the NO, I went to mass in a number of states and on military bases and they were all the same. Today, I can’t go to two masses the same in the same parish much less in another parish.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

So . . . maybe the people who are fervent supporters and attendees at the Tridentine liturgies (both approved and non-approved) might fall under the category of "don’t appreciate what you’ve got until it’s gone . . . "

I have to agree with the poster who said that the new priests celebrating the Tridentine rite want to celebrate it, and those who attend, likewise.

Cause it sounds like there may have been quite a few problems with “routine” when the Mass was celebrated back then.

It’s funny, when I asked my parents and grandparents how they weathered the changes of Vatican II, the only thing that they really replied in unison was that now they could understand the Mass since it was in English.

From that, I was under the impression that no one really knew what was being said at the Tridentine Mass of my youth.

Until I was asked to attend a private Tridentine Mass (with our bishop’s approval) with our parish priest and one other person, given a missal to follow with the responses, and much to my surprise, the English translation was right alongside the Latin. And this was a very old missal.

I laughed then at the notion of no one knowing what was going on. It was very easy to follow, reading along. But I have to admit that I do have a couple of years of Latin under my belt, and I was well within earshot of the priest.

In 1857, Pius IX renewed the prohibition on the translation of the Ordinary of the Mass. This prohibition was withdrawn only in 1897, when a fresh edition of the Index was published; & even in 1901, a German edition of the Missal was published which still did not include a translation of the words of consecration.​

The history of the vernacular Missal in modern times is more complex than is sometimes realised. (For more details, see J.A. Jungmann, S.J., “The Mass of the Roman Rite” [1992 edition of the ET], both vols.) US Catholics are particularly well-off, because a great deal was done in the US to make the text of the Mass familiar in translations - this has not been true in all countries at all times. ##

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

Was this your experience growing up and attending the Tridentine Mass?

Yes it was.

I was born into a traditional Catholic family…and have attended a NO only twice.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I never saw one skip entire sections of the prayers he was supposed to say, although some of them did say them very fast.

I’ve seen/served at 1962 Masses where that has happened - not often: but it does happen, even these days, even with the pre-1962 form of the Mass of the Roman Rite. Any idea that the 1962 Mass is somehow proof against abuse is baseless: as long as priests are subject to human weakness, there will be abuses & the possibility of them, however unintentional they may be.​

And it was many centuries ago that Rome had to rule explicitly that forms of the “In Nomine Patris…” used in baptism were invalid if they substantially changed its meaning, e.g. by mentioning the BVM. Denzinger’s Enchiridion is full of condemnations of abuses & errors - the notion that everything has suddenly, out of the blue, gone to pot in the Church, is completely unhistorical. People complain of the clergy now - just as they were complaining about them 700 years ago. At least we have bishops who live in their sees - it was not always so.

The past always looks like a golden era if it’s distant enough - people are always complaining of the evil times they live in; they’ve been doing so for thousands of years In 5000 AD, they’ll probably be looking back at the “new Pentecost” that happened after 1962 - & overlooking all the things that people complain about ##

 

[proud2bcatholic]

We’re not in heaven so of course, Mass will never be offered perfectly.

I was born in 1981 so I can’t speak to what happened before Vatican II. I can only speak of the present. I have seen some crazy things at Mass. Until two years ago, almost every Mass I went to seemed like a show a performance, it was so anthropocentric, I sometimes wonder if we truly honored the Sabbath.

Since then, I’ve discovered Divine Liturgy and the Indult using the 1962 Missal (oh happy day!). I was utterly in shock when I discovered what Liturgy is supposed to be!

Personally, I would love to see a widespread return to the traditions handed down to us, I would like to see in every parish an uniformity, reverence and theocentric Liturgy.

I believe that we are in the beginnings of the movement to slowly make this happen, but it’s going to take some time, and some growing pains.

What I think needs to happen is this:

-liberate the 1962 Missal, as it should not be suppressed and it will also be a reference point for the Novus Ordo to return to its roots

-remove the options out of the Novus Ordo, remove all temptations for the priest to assert his own personality on the liturgy

-return to the traditional posture of the priest leading the people in prayer towards the East

-bring back the altar rails, the incense, the altar boys, the minor orders, traditional Church architecture, the tabernacle

-give GREGORIAN CHANT AND POLYPHONY it’s rightful pride of place, enough with banal, syrupy, secular music, it is not Sacred Music and is not fitting for the splendor of the liturgy, teach the students in Catholic schools Gregorian Chant using the Ward Method, start choir schools, train our seminarians in Gregorian Chant

-change the seminarian formation to where it is centered around Liturgy, the FSSP Seminary should be the model, IMO

-preach the faith radically from the pulpit

-teach people how to dress modestly when coming to Church, I don’t think it would hurt to bring back veils for the women either

In the meantime, I’ll continue to assist at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass according to the 1962 Missal at Mater Misericordiae Mission and do all that I can to make it a success.

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

We’re not in heaven so of course, Mass will never be offered perfectly.

I was born in 1981 so I can’t speak to what happened before Vatican II. I can only speak of the present. I have seen some crazy things at Mass. Until two years ago, almost every Mass I went to seemed like a show a performance, it was so anthropocentric, I sometimes wonder if we truly honored the Sabbath.

Since then, I’ve discovered Divine Liturgy and the Indult using the 1962 Missal (oh happy day!). I was utterly in shock when I discovered what Liturgy is supposed to be!

Personally, I would love to see a widespread return to the traditions handed down to us, I would like to see in every parish an uniformity, reverence and theocentric Liturgy.

I believe that we are in the beginnings of the movement to slowly make this happen, but it’s going to take some time, and some growing pains.

What I think needs to happen is this:

-liberate the 1962 Missal, as it should not be suppressed and it will also be a reference point for the Novus Ordo to return to its roots

-remove the options out of the Novus Ordo, remove all temptations for the priest to assert his own personality on the liturgy

-return to the traditional posture of the priest leading the people in prayer towards the East

-bring back the altar rails, the incense, the altar boys, the minor orders, traditional Church architecture, the tabernacle

-give GREGORIAN CHANT AND POLYPHONY it’s rightful pride of place, enough with banal, syrupy, secular music, it is not Sacred Music and is not fitting for the splendor of the liturgy, teach the students in Catholic schools Gregorian Chant using the Ward Method, start choir schools, train our seminarians in Gregorian Chant

-change the seminarian formation to where it is centered around Liturgy, the FSSP Seminary should be the model, IMO

-preach the faith radically from the pulpit

-teach people how to dress modestly when coming to Church, I don’t think it would hurt to bring back veils for the women either

In the meantime, I’ll continue to assist at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass according to the 1962 Missal at Mater Misericordiae Mission and do all that I can to make it a success.

In the wise words of our less than orthodox Baptist brothers…

AMEN PRAISE JESUS!

 

[ncjohn]

(hi John )

I have respectfully disagree.
The niece and nephew that I help to raise attended the same Catholic grade school as I did. 1967 through 1976, I was taught by Felician Sisters and some lay teachers. We used the St. Joseph Catechism.

By the time my niece (1982) entered the school, and a lay woman was the principal, they never touched the Catechism. Everything was a “WWJD” thing. From the first grade of “God made the flowers and God made the trees” to the eighth grade of “the power of the Holy Spirit will lead you through life”, NOTHING of the CCC was taught. We constantly lived Catholic. Attended Mass as we should, confession (well communal confession because we were told that was right) and communion. The only thing these kids knew about being Catholic was from us, not the best Catholic school in the area. (The girl is now Wiccan and the boy is nothing. Pretty horrifying for their Great-Uncle)

Fast forward to 1999 when my own daughter entered Catechism. Again, “God made the Flowers and God made the trees.” NOTHING from the CCC. The program was almost identical to the Lutheran School at the corner but cost 90.00 a year. I thank Our Lord every day that I was lead to my parish and I no longer have to “unteach” what they were teaching my kids. For example, during the lesson in first grade about the miracle of the Eucharist, a boy asked, “Is it really blood?”
The teacher said, “No,” and went from there. No other explaination about substance just “no”.
As the assistant in the classroom, I nearly had a heart attack.

Unless a program is teaching the CCC, the kids don’t get it. Most of the programs touch on it but don’t teach it, if that.

As I said, I’m not commenting on Catholic schools as we have none near us and I don’t know what they are doing. I am talking about parish level catechesis. In every parish where our kids attended, we found dedicated teachers who gave them a sound Catholic education, which we reinforced at home. As a result, both of our now-married with children kids are still practicing Catholics who know their faith.

Maybe we were just blessed to live in dioceses where the programs specified for use were of good quality. Maybe we were just continually blessed with priests who understood the importance of good catechesis or consistently above average catechists. I tend to doubt that that was the case though, which is why I question that blanket statement that catechesis has been horrible and that a whole generation was lost to it.

This is really off-topic though so I’ll quit at that.

Peace to you my dear!

 

[netmilsmom]

which is why I question that blanket statement that catechesis has been horrible and that a whole generation was lost to it.

You are blessed!

I’ve spoken to the retired DRE at my parish as well as the couple now running it.

The problem that they see is that the concentration is on the Bible in most programs. Now if this was taking the CCC and showing where it comes from in the Bible that would be great, but the programs in my area and where I used to live tended to ignore the CCC for Bible study.

We have made a generation of Christian/Catholics when we should be making Catholic/Christians. Otherwise, I can save my money and send the kiddies to Sunday School at Trinity Lutheran for free.

As my wonderful pastor (God Bless him and give him long life) said when I showed him the book they were using at the “Catholic Communty” I was leaving…

“You’ll find more Catholic teachings at the local Baptist church than you will in those books.”

Merry Christmas to you and yours!!!

 

[GregoryPalamas]

If I could change anything in the N.O. Mass, I would turn the priest back around facing the tabernacle (placed at the top or above the altar) and the altar, and give him a good sound system so that everyone can hear what he is saying, loudly and clearly.

By having the priest face the people, he became an instant celebrity (celebrant). Suddenly, he felt the need to convey his feelings through expressions (hand-movements, body postures, turning from side to side while praying so that the people “feel included” - also has contributed to people returning his gestures). This led to the focus of the mass being on the priest, instead of what he was doing (offering a sacrifice on behalf of himself and the people). I think because of this, too many priests are very happy with being the celebrity, instead of celebrant.

A priest once told me how uncomfortable it is to proclaim the Gloria while everyone is looking towards the sanctuary (and at him), and he has to look at the people, while trying to be solemn and reverant. He said he’d much rather face the sanctuary (the altar and tabernacle and crucifix) WITH the congregation, that he feels totally out of place during that particular moment of the Mass.

Is there some reason he doesn’t just do it? My priest always faces East as does the congregation,.

CDL

 

[netmilsmom]

, teach the students in Catholic schools Gregorian Chant using the Ward Method, start choir schools, train our seminarians in Gregorian Chant.

How about teach the students Latin and Greek in Catholic schools?

People fail to realize what an advantage in studying Medical terminology, and science we give our children by knowing the roots of our words.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

For example, during the lesson in first grade about the miracle of the Eucharist, a boy asked, “Is it really blood?”
The teacher said, “No,” and went from there. No other explaination about substance just “no”.
As the assistant in the classroom, I nearly had a heart attack.

Unless a program is teaching the CCC, the kids don’t get it. Most of the programs touch on it but don’t teach it, if that.

The simple answer “No” let’s me know that the teacher had no idea at all about the redeeming work of our Lord, or His and our glorified body, or the resurrection. Since this person was a “teacher” one must assume that he/she was at least representative of the level of understanding in the entire parish. Are there no standards?

CDL

 

[netmilsmom]

The simple answer “No” let’s me know that the teacher had no idea at all about the redeeming work of our Lord, or His and our glorified body, or the resurrection. Since this person was a “teacher” one must assume that he/she was at least representative of the level of understanding in the entire parish. Are there no standards?

CDL

The only standard was that the lady was friends with the DRE.

 

[az_4_faith]

The point isn’t how the Mass was said back in the day. The point is how it is said now. Whether at an SSPX church, an indult Mass or the various wildcat chapels that dot the landscape, it is said with reverence by priests who love it and faithful who appreciate it.

As for “banding together” with NO Catholics…nah. I’ll pass. You guys need to clean up your own house. It’s not my problem and I shouldn’t be expected to clean it up. You made your bed, now lie in it.

But here’s a suggestion, just because I love you in Christ. Tightening up the rubrics won’t matter at all with the NO. You need to eliminate the options. That’s what needs to be done more than anything. As long as you have your plethora of options…well, let’s just say creativity breeds irreverance.

Glad I could help.

This is exactly what I’m talking about . . .

What do you mean by “you guys need to clean up your own house, etc . . .”??

As far as I know this is OUR house, all of OURS, not mine - yours - theirs . . . We are supposed to be ONE, not throwing garbage at each other, especially for things that are totally beyond our control.

This, today, now, is the Church I was baptized into four decades ago. You and I are supposed to be brothers and sisters in Christ, the One Body of Christ, not drawing lines and dividing against one another.

We both want reverant, orthodox liturgies, not modern-day quasi-protestant shows when we go to Mass. How do we fix that? Not by supporting schismatic SSPX groups, or “wildcat chapels” that are not in communion with Rome.

From what I am reading, it sounds as if problems with the liturgy have existed before AND after the 60’s. We need to deal with what exists now, agreeably, but running away and ignoring the problem won’t fix anything. I love the Church with all my heart, and want better liturgies for my children and my grandchildren, but I can’t do that by leaving the Church I know to be true for a church that is in schism. To do so would be to ignore Jesus’ promise to remain with His Church until the end of time. I have to trust Him.

“You made your own bed, now lie in it . . .” ??? Jesus, Mary and Joseph, are those supposed to be words of love??!!!

 

[netmilsmom]

This is exactly what I’m talking about . . .

What do you mean by “you guys need to clean up your own house, etc . . .”??

As far as I know this is OUR house, all of OURS, not mine - yours - theirs . . . We are supposed to be ONE, not throwing garbage at each other, especially for things that are totally beyond our control.

“You made your own bed, now lie in it . . .” ??? Jesus, Mary and Joseph, are those supposed to be words of love??!!!

I understand your heartache about that statement but I am at a traditional (note the small “t”) very historic NO parish. Not everyone has that option.

I was in Innovation Central in my Archdiocese. I was told that this is the way it was. I went one day to a schism parish because I wanted the reverence that was so sorely lacking at my parish. I probably would still be attending there had I not known that I would be leading my children away from Rome. Something I just couldn’t do.

Our Lord knew better and brought me home to my parish. I thank Him every day for it. Desperation can lead people to do things. Pray for those who cannot attend the liturgy their hearts long for. I did it for seven years and it was terrible.

I really believe that this is just a flash in the history of Our Church. This too will pass.

 

[az_4_faith]

I have been an active Catholic all my life. Been a parishioner at several different places, baptized our kids in parishes that I would not attend now unless I had no other option, and eventually ended up at the Parish I should have been at all along because my children were going to school at the parish.

What drew me first to this parish was their devotion to the unborn and their associate pastors (newly ordained) gave direct, doctrine filled homilies. Plus, much to my husband’s delight, they “rang the bells”.

In the late 90’s, a priest-friend of mine was named Pastor. He transformed our Novus Ordo liturgies into true moments of beauty. Latin was introduced, Gregorian Chant, more use of incense (at one time-almost too much!), traditions were unearthed that I had never heard of! He purchased/was given vestments that were more than just a blanket thrown over his shoulders – beautifully ornate vestments that were specific for feast days and solemnities. Cassocks were now worn by seminarians and priests. Order was expected in the liturgy and monkey-business was not tolerated.

Just when things were going beautifully, our beloved Bishop moved our Pastor to be the new Rector of the Cathedral. (By the way, we couldn’t really argue, because our Bishop is wonderful) Now, the people of the diocese are reaping the rewards, because the same liturgies are being celebrated at the Cathedral (other side of town), but now we are back to plain liturgies in our parish. New pastor doesn’t like anything traditional. He pretty much puts up with some things that staff and faithful insisted on staying, but he doesn’t like it.

There went all those beautiful Masses that were celebrated weekly in our parish without fail.

And it all had to do with one priest being transferred. The Cathedrals gain was our loss. We had a taste of what the NO Mass is supposed to be and how it can be celebrated if only the priest wants it that way. Didn’t matter that the congregation wanted it. New priest didn’t.

We are all so sad. Many left. I’m just confused - realize nothing is a given. It’s really been discouraging. I guess we could drive across town every Sunday like some folks do, but darn it, my parish is just down the street from my neighborhood and I don’t want to do that!

This stuff needs to be solved by our Bishops. Until they make the celebration (or lack of) of the liturgy their priority, I don’t think we can count on anything anymore. Really makes me sad.

Good News, though, we had a new associate assigned who chants the Kyrie and Agnus Dei acapella in Latin, so I guess there is hope!

 

[netmilsmom]

Just when things were going beautifully, our beloved Bishop moved our Pastor to be the new Rector of the Cathedral. (By the way, we couldn’t really argue, because our Bishop is wonderful) Now, the people of the diocese are reaping the rewards, because the same liturgies are being celebrated at the Cathedral (other side of town), but now we are back to plain liturgies in our parish. New pastor doesn’t like anything traditional. He pretty much puts up with some things that staff and faithful insisted on staying, but he doesn’t like it.

There went all those beautiful Masses that were celebrated weekly in our parish without fail.

And it all had to do with one priest being transferred. The Cathedrals gain was our loss. We had a taste of what the NO Mass is supposed to be and how it can be celebrated if only the priest wants it that way. Didn’t matter that the congregation wanted it. New priest didn’t.

Oh my!
Your post reminds me to pray, pray, pray for our Wonderful Pastor (May God Bless him and give him long life). While we are blessed that he is under a Bishop in Slovakia, he could be needed elsewhere. Our last pastor hand picked him to keep the tradition in our liturgies. Without him, I don’t know what we would do.
I suspect many of our families would be going to the “Independent” Catholic church in the area. We can’t afford to lose those souls.

(Merry Christmas and Bless you, my friend)

 

[az_4_faith]

(Merry Christmas and Bless you, my friend)

Thank you for your kind words, Netmil(name removed by moderator).

Our parish is over 60 years old, so pastors have come and gone.

What’s really sad is once you’ve had such a good thing, you don’t want to turn back the clock and settle for mediocre.

I offer it up and I hope our new pastor is being transformed by our congregation the way our old pastor transformed us. Maybe that was our bishop’s hope in placing him with us.

In the meantime, I also catch the Sunday morning TV broadcast of the Catholic Mass filmed at the Cathedral. Our former pastor, the new rector, usually is the main celebrant for the broadcast, and this is how his presence is being shared with the entire diocese in an unique way – Mass for shut-ins. I’ve heard so many people comment about how much they look forward to watching these Masses on TV now because of him.

I wish everyone had the experience of attending the NO Masses that I have with our former pastor. Maybe the issue wouldn’t be about Tridentine vs. NO if everyone could see how beautifully the NO COULD be celebrated.

 

[netmilsmom]

What’s really sad is once you’ve had such a good thing, you don’t want to turn back the clock and settle for mediocre.

I’m with you on this! At one point I wanted to move back to my family in Cleveland. Now I can’t leave my parish.

I offer it up and I hope our new pastor is being transformed by our congregation the way our old pastor transformed us. Maybe that was our bishop’s hope in placing him with us.

In the meantime, I also catch the Sunday morning TV broadcast of the Catholic Mass filmed at the Cathedral. Our former pastor, the new rector, usually is the main celebrant for the broadcast, and this is how his presence is being shared with the entire diocese in an unique way – Mass for shut-ins. I’ve heard so many people comment about how much they look forward to watching these Masses on TV now because of him.

Oh that must be so hard for you, but a blessing to the Diocese.

I wish everyone had the experience of attending the NO Masses that I have with our former pastor. Maybe the issue wouldn’t be about Tridentine vs. NO if everyone could see how beautifully the NO COULD be celebrated.

I really feel that this is a fact. There are some who still need the TLM but some are escaping innovative community centered masses and long for some reverence.

 

[djrakowski]

Oh my!
Your post reminds me to pray, pray, pray for our Wonderful Pastor (May God Bless him and give him long life). While we are blessed that he is under a Bishop in Slovakia, he could be needed elsewhere. Our last pastor hand picked him to keep the tradition in our liturgies. Without him, I don’t know what we would do.
** I suspect many of our families would be going to the “Independent” Catholic church in the area.** We can’t afford to lose those souls.

Actually, I suspect many would start attending Assumption Grotto. Thanks be to God that we have at least a few choices in the Archdiocese, though in some areas, folks have to travel to find anything close to what we have.