Beginning to give up

[hurst]

PMV:

If I went to Confession with the intention of later saying these slight fibs to my (what I believe to be) mentally disturbed mother, would my Confession be valid? I’ve never gotten a solid answer about this.

If you confess anything with the express intention of doing it again, your confession is invalid. For confession to be worthy, you must be sorry and try to avoid it in the future.

In your case with the fib, contrary to what others may have said, it is clearly a sin of false witness. Whether or not it is mortal in itself is an issue for the priest to judge. But even if it is deemed venial, you indicate that you are doing it deliberately. It is possible that you are motivated by another more serious sin… but again, that is for you to examine your conscience about and for the priest to judge the gravity thereof.

Here are some Catechism Q&A that might be of some help:

Q. 753. What is contrition, or sorrow for sin?

A. Contrition, or sorrow for sin, is a hatred of sin and a true grief of the soul for having offended God, with a firm purpose of sinning no more.

Q. 754. Give an example of how we should hate and avoid sin.

A. We should hate and avoid sin as one hates and avoids a poison that almost caused his death. We may not grieve over the death of our soul as we do over the death of a friend, and yet our sorrow may be true; because the sorrow for sin comes more from our reason than from our feelings.

Q. 770. What do you mean by a firm purpose of sinning no more?

A. By a firm purpose of sinning no more I mean a fixed resolve not only to avoid all mortal sin, but also its near occasions.

Q. 771. What do you mean by the near occasions of sin?

A. By the near occasions of sin I mean all the persons, places and things that may easily lead us into sin.

Q. 772. Why are we bound to avoid occasions of sin?

A. We are bound to avoid occasions of sin because Our Lord has said: “He who loves the danger will perish in it”; and as we are bound to avoid the loss of our souls, so we are bound to avoid the danger of their loss. The occasion is the cause of sin, and you cannot take away the evil without removing its cause.

Q. 773. Is a person who is determined to avoid the sin, but who is unwilling to give up its near occasion when it is possible to do so, rightly disposed for confession?

A. A person who is determined to avoid the sin, but who is unwilling to give up its near occasion when it is possible to do so, is not rightly disposed for confession, and he will not be absolved if he makes known to the priest the true state of his conscience.

Q. 774. How many kinds of occasions of sin are there?

A. There are four kinds of occasions of sin:

1.(1) Near occasions, through which we always fall;

2.(2) Remote occasions, through which we sometimes fall;

3.(3) Voluntary occasions or those we can avoid; and

4.(4) Involuntary occasions or those we cannot avoid.

A person who lives in a near and voluntary occasion of sin need not expect forgiveness while he continues in that state.

Q. 775. What persons, places and things are usually occasions of sin?

A.

1.(1) The persons who are occasions of sin are all those in whose company we sin, whether they be bad of themselves or bad only while in our company, in which case we also become occasions of sin for them;

2.(2) The places are usually liquor saloons, low theaters, indecent dances, entertainments, amusements, exhibitions, and all immoral resorts of any kind, whether we sin in them or not;

3.(3) The things are all bad books, indecent pictures, songs, jokes and the like, even when they are tolerated by public opinion and found in public places.

Baltimore Catechism #3

hurst

 

[PMV]

hurst:

In your case with the fib, contrary to what others may have said, it is clearly a sin of false witness. Whether or not it is mortal in itself is an issue for the priest to judge. But even if it is deemed venial, you indicate that you are doing it deliberately. It is possible that you are motivated by another more serious sin… but again, that is for you to examine your conscience about and for the priest to judge the gravity thereof.

Are there any cases in which lieing is not a sin? Also, let’s say that a woman with some sort of mental disability was in a hospital bed, and you were one of her visitors. She demanded you not to brush your teeth (for whatever reason) and made threats to you about if you did. If you told her that you refuse her demands and you brush your teeth in front of her then she will go absolutely insane! However, you decided instead that you’ll just “go along” with her and say, something like “ok, ok, I won’t brush my teeth. Don’t worry.” However, behind her back you brush your teeth without letting her know because you know that it’s necessary for the good of your teeth. Are you stating that this kind of fib would be a sin?

 

[rayne89]

PMV:

My mother won’t even allow me to give $1 at Mass or else she’ll punish me horribly, so I end up committing the sin of greed at Mass. She seems to be robbing me of my spirituality and dignity.

You have commited no such sin. A sin is commited with free will, your mother is not allowing you to give. You have an unhealthy view of God. Like he’s waiting to strike you down. Maybe because your mother is so controlling, you have formed your ideas about God from this. God is merciful and just. If you give against your mother’s wishes then you are disobeying her and if you don’t give your being greedy? God does not set us up in impossible situations. If you can not give financially, give in ways you can. God understands. Pray for your priest, while at Mass pick a person around you and say a short prayer for them while in the pew. Offer up you sufferings for those fallen away from the faith and their conversion.

You need to get some spiritual direction even by phone or email if your mom won’t allow you to go see a priest in person. And continue to prepare a way for you to be independant of your mother’s control as soon as you are able.

 

[PMV]

rayne89:

You have commited no such sin. A sin is commited with free will, your mother is not allowing you to give. You have an unhealthy view of God. Like he’s waiting to strike you down. Maybe because your mother is so controlling, you have formed your ideas about God from this. God is merciful and just. If you give against your mother’s wishes then you are disobeying her and if you don’t give your being greedy? God does not set us up in impossible situations. If you can not give financially, give in ways you can. God understands. Pray for your priest, while at Mass pick a person around you and say a short prayer for them while in the pew. Offer up you sufferings for those fallen away from the faith and their conversion.

You need to get some spiritual direction even by phone or email if your mom won’t allow you to go see a priest in person. And continue to prepare a way for you to be independant of your mother’s control as soon as you are able.

I already had the money, so with my free will I could have chosen to give it and just take the harshness my mother would put me through. From what I understand, if I go against my mother’s wishes by giving at Mass then I am not committing a sin. Also, I believe this is also a situation in which it is morally justified for me to disobey my mother, since she is telling me to sin.

Even if I do email a priest for spititual direction, this probably would not have much effect on my lifestyle because I have no starting point now. And yes, it seems that God has put me in an impossible situation, because I am not allowed to go to Confession or Mass. I’m not even sure if foster care is an option. I may have to wait until I can move out to live a good life and I hope I don’t die by then or the end of the world occurs.

 

[rayne89]

If it’s any consulation (which it may not be) I’m a 33 year old woman whose hair is falling out do to medication and health problems. I know 33 may sound old to you at 17 but trust me you’ll change you mind. The one thing I’ve always loved is my hair. It’s always been long and thick, and I’ve alway thought it my best feature. Now I must keep it shorter because otherwise it looks stringy and gets pulled out easier from required brushing. I have a full face which looks best with long hair, even when I was a size 5 short hair makes my face look fat. But God is keeping me humble. At first I was quite upset by losing my hair, but I have accepted it. The people around me don’t really care about my hair they care about me.

Your situation is temporary and while frustrating and stressful can easily be remedied when you are able to become independant from your parents. Mine is not going to improve. I was a strong willed, independant teenager with a mom with mental issues-trust me I know how seemingly “small” issues can feel like they’re driving you mad.

Do the best that you can do under your circumstances, God is merciful, he knows what you are going through. Do whatever you can do and what you can’t do offer up your sufferings. This is not a permenant situation. You will get through it.

 

[ThisOne]

PMV:

I already had the money, so with my free will I could have chosen to give it and just take the harshness my mother would put me through. From what I understand, if I go against my mother’s wishes by giving at Mass then I am not committing a sin. Also, I believe this is also a situation in which it is morally justified for me to disobey my mother, since she is telling me to sin.

Yes, I agree with you. You are morally justified in defying your mother. Unfortunately, there is a prior sin from which these lies flow – and that has to be your main concern.

PMV:

Even if I do email a priest for spititual direction, this probably would not have much effect on my lifestyle because I have no starting point now. And yes, it seems that God has put me in an impossible situation, because I am not allowed to go to Confession or Mass.

I wish you wouldn’t blame God for your mother’s sin and your own youth, which are what is presenting this challenge. God is with you, as should be evident by your abiding concern to do the right thing while retaining your personal dignity and integrity in the face of human cruelty.

What you may not be morally justified in is defying her about cutting your hair. Have you considered what I suggested earlier – cutting just a little tiny bit or doing something to your hair that makes it just *look * shorter – something that might appease her? Doing something like that rather than an outright refusal might mitigate against the sin of disobeying your parent on this issue.

Most people will view the hair issue with great sympathy, as I do. But you can try to work within it and do at least something to show your mother you are trying to meet her needs. Try cutting just a little, or styling your hair when she sees you in a way that is more acceptable to her. There are ways of making your hair look shorter without actually being shorter, you know.

The thing is, at least as I see it, PMV, is that all the moral justification for lies that come after the initial sin of disobedience to your parent means nothing. That is, if your parent is not being unreasonable in telling you to cut your hair, then that is the sin that you really have to address.

The preponderance of opinion here from posters is that you are required to obey your parents. I agree with that, but that is precisely why I am encouraging you to try alternatives to doing what she demands – alternatives that may fool her into thinking you actually cut your hair. If she is so insensitive to you, and if you really believe longer hair has such a huge impact on your ability to be accepted by your peers, then I would support your doing things that make it only appear that you have cut your hair. Deceiving your parent under the circumstances where she is intentionally harming you emotionally is not a sin, in my estimation.

PMV:

I’m not even sure if foster care is an option. I may have to wait until I can move out to live a good life and I hope I don’t die by then or the end of the world occurs.

You are well-protected, my dear! Do you really think that God approves of what your mother is doing?

Are there any Catholic youth groups with boys about your age that you could join?

There is a basic obedience that is due to our parents. When parental requests become oppressive and destructive of our integrity, however, we can defend ourselves by attempting to satisfy their demands by means that may not be exactly what they demand.

Your concern should be addressing your primary responsibility – obeying your parents in REASONABLE demands. I’m suggesting that you try to get her to believe that you HAVE acceded to her demands. It’s certainly worth a try, because if you succeed, she will no longer tell you that you cannot do this or you cannot do that, and you will no longer have to lie.

 

[PMV]

ThisOne, I have considered your option of making my hair look cut although it is not cut; I have a technique for this. However, it’s this main action that is playing a big role in the problem here. I did not think my Confession was valid because I had the intention to do this. If I put my hair this way, she would obviously ask me if I had a haircut, which I’d have to lie about. Also, my mom said that even if I did put my hair in a different style, it would not matter because she does not want me to have this amount. Do you think it would be morally justified to just set my hair up the way I mentioned to make it look as if I had a haircut, and claim I got a haircut? I don’t understand how it would be a sin to say a fib to someone who is so insane!

 

[PMV]

rayne89:

If it’s any consulation (which it may not be) I’m a 33 year old woman whose hair is falling out do to medication and health problems. I know 33 may sound old to you at 17 but trust me you’ll change you mind. The one thing I’ve always loved is my hair. It’s always been long and thick, and I’ve alway thought it my best feature. Now I must keep it shorter because otherwise it looks stringy and gets pulled out easier from required brushing. I have a full face which looks best with long hair, even when I was a size 5 short hair makes my face look fat. But God is keeping me humble. At first I was quite upset by losing my hair, but I have accepted it. The people around me don’t really care about my hair they care about me.

Your situation is temporary and while frustrating and stressful can easily be remedied when you are able to become independant from your parents. Mine is not going to improve. I was a strong willed, independant teenager with a mom with mental issues-trust me I know how seemingly “small” issues can feel like they’re driving you mad.

Do the best that you can do under your circumstances, God is merciful, he knows what you are going through. Do whatever you can do and what you can’t do offer up your sufferings. This is not a permenant situation. You will get through it.

I am sorry about your situation. I am in no way trying to degrade your hair loss problem by stating this, but imagine if your loss of hair was caused intentionally by someone else, and worse yet, your own mother! This is probably enough to infuriate a teenager.

 

[ThisOne]

PMV:

ThisOne, I have considered your option of making my hair look cut although it is not cut; I have a technique for this. However, it’s this main action that is playing a big role in the problem here. I did not think my Confession was valid because I had the intention to do this. If I put my hair this way, she would obviously ask me if I had a haircut, which I’d have to lie about. Also, my mom said that even if I did put my hair in a different style, it would not matter because she does not want me to have this amount. Do you think it would be morally justified to just set my hair up the way I mentioned to make it look as if I had a haircut, and claim I got a haircut? I don’t understand how it would be a sin to say a fib to someone who is so insane!

I wish I could see a picture of you!

Frankly, and I may be wrong, but I don’t think it would be a sin. If she’s really crazy, you have to assume that lying to her is like lying to a two-year-old that you must control for some valid reason – in that situation, parents regularly say things that are not true. I’ve never felt guilty about lying to someone whose mental faculties were impaired and who were either persecuting me or exerting unconscionable power over me, and I don’t think you should, either. I don’t think any reasonable person would think lying under such circumstances would be a sin, if you have lots of evidence to support the fact that the person is truly impaired.

This is something you could clear up with a priest or spiritual director, but I think it’s okay. Some of the other posters here will no doubt weigh in, and I will be interested to hear their perspectives. I am willing to be corrected if I am wrong, but I cannot see that I am wrong now and would have to be convinced of that.

 

[PMV]

ThisOne:

I wish I could see a picture of you!

Frankly, and I may be wrong, but I don’t think it would be a sin. If she’s really crazy, you have to assume that lying to her is like lying to a two-year-old that you must control for some valid reason – in that situation, parents regularly say things that are not true. I’ve never felt guilty about lying to someone whose mental faculties were impaired and who were either persecuting me or exerting unconscionable power over me, and I don’t think you should, either. I don’t think any reasonable person would think lying under such circumstances would be a sin, if you have lots of evidence to support the fact that the person is truly impaired.

This is something you could clear up with a priest or spiritual director, but I think it’s okay. Some of the other posters here will no doubt weigh in, and I will be interested to hear their perspectives. I am willing to be corrected if I am wrong, but I cannot see that I am wrong now and would have to be convinced of that.

That’s the first instinct I had also when thinking about this situation; if the person obviously has a mental condition, why not say a fib to her if it’s for the good of your own health and it prevents her from being driven crazy? We’re probably right, but there is that ounce of doubt and little lack of knowlende about the situation that needs to be cleared up. To adress this issue to a priest in a Confessional or over the phone would take an enormous amount of time if the priest is to fully understand the situation. I just came up with the idea to find one or more priests on the internet and send them the URL to this thread to post here. I need straight answers from authority within the Church. I would appreciate anyone’s assistance in this.

It’s kind of like telling a child that Santa will bring will bring them what they want for Christmas, or telling a child that the toothfairy will bring them some money for their teeth.

If telling a fib or two about my hair and shaving is not a sin, then I will no longer urge to move to a foster home, and I can go back to Confession and Mass (and possibly have much more of my independance back). The main core of this is whether it’s a sin or not. It is crucial that I get to the bottom of this soon.

 

[ThisOne]

PMV,

I suggest you try as one location the Moral Theology thread – that’s exactly what this question is about, moral theology.

It might be a burden on people, however, to read this entire thread, so perhaps you could work on distilling the question down to a single post that explains the outlines of the issue. It may well be that people who might be inclined to help are no so inclined to plow through all the posts – there are a lot of them here.

If you want to work on a question in this way, I’d be happy to help you edit it and to give you ideas about how to make it more effective.

 

[PMV]

ThisOne:

PMV,

I suggest you try as one location the Moral Theology thread – that’s exactly what this question is about, moral theology.

It might be a burden on people, however, to read this entire thread, so perhaps you could work on distilling the question down to a single post that explains the outlines of the issue. It may well be that people who might be inclined to help are no so inclined to plow through all the posts – there are a lot of them here.

If you want to work on a question in this way, I’d be happy to help you edit it and to give you ideas about how to make it more effective.

You have a good idea. Here’s what I plan on posting on the ‘Moral Theology’ section;

I want to have thicker hair, but my mother wants it shorter. My thicker amount of hair evens out the shape of my head and looks much better on me. If I have shorter hair my face looks worse, and the entire appearance of my head is distorted. I have poured my heart out to my mother about how much it means to me to have more hair, but she has stated more then once that she does not care about my dignity, and does not care about how much she emotionally torments me by doing this. Because I have refused to get a haircut she will not allow me to go to Confession and Mass, anywhere else out of the house except school, and she has taken other rights away from me. 
In order to solve this, there is a certain style I could put my hair to make it look as if I got a haircut, and claim to my mother that I got a haircut. Although I would have earned all these rights back, one issue remains;
Would it be a sin for me to say a fib to my (what I believe to be) mentally disturbed mother who intentionally wants to harm my emotional well-being? Also, if I went to Confession with the intention of later fibbing to my mother about my hair, would it be a valid Confession? She has said more then once that she does not care about my dignity.
It also may be necessary to mention that my mother refuses to get any counseling, medicine or help for her obsession with control. This seems like an impossible situation.

Any suggestions?

 

[ThisOne]

I think it’s a good start, PMV. I have one question for you, though. If I were to see a picture of you now, what do you think I would think about how you look? That is, is it just your mother who objects, or do other adults think it’s a bit “too much”?

I think your post gives enough information and if people have questions, you’ll be there to respond to them.

If you could, would you post a link to the thread here after it’s posted?

 

[PMV]

ThisOne:

I think it’s a good start, PMV. I have one question for you, though. If I were to see a picture of you now, what do you think I would think about how you look? That is, is it just your mother who objects, or do other adults think it’s a bit “too much”?

I think your post gives enough information and if people have questions, you’ll be there to respond to them.

If you could, would you post a link to the thread here after it’s posted?

Actually, in my opinion my hair is kind of short, and I would assume you and anyone else would consider it somewhat short as well (for my head and face structure). My mother is the only person who has told me that I have too much. I’ve actually gained more respect from other peers and adults from having my hair this way. My mother called my grandmother to complain about my hair, but when my grandmother and uncle saw my hair they said it looked fine.

I will post the situation and the link to this thread under ‘Moral Theology,’ and will hopefully come in contact with some priests online as well. I’ll also post a link to the thread here. Thank you for your help, ThisOne.

 

[PMV]

Here’s the link to the thread;

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=93078

 

[ThisOne]

You’re most welcome! I’m glad to help.

 

[hurst]

PMV:

Are there any cases in which lieing is not a sin?

By very definition, “lying” is knowingly bearing false witness. It is always a sin. It might be venial, or it might be mortal. But it is a sin.

There are legitimate cases of not revealing the truth, but a lie should not be substituted.

If you accidently give wrong information, then it is not a lie. But you must correct it if you reasonably can or else you sin by that omission.

PMV:

Also, let’s say that a woman with some sort of mental disability was in a hospital bed, and you were one of her visitors. She demanded you not to brush your teeth (for whatever reason) and made threats to you about if you did. If you told her that you refuse her demands and you brush your teeth in front of her then she will go absolutely insane! However, you decided instead that you’ll just “go along” with her and say, something like “ok, ok, I won’t brush my teeth. Don’t worry.” However, behind her back you brush your teeth without letting her know because you know that it’s necessary for the good of your teeth. Are you stating that this kind of fib would be a sin?

Yes, absolutely. Just because it is good for your teeth doesn’t mean it is good for your soul.

That doesn’t mean you should be defiant and do it in front of her, though. One must also be compassionate towards others. Again, there are legitimate cases of not revealing the truth, but a lie should not be substituted.

Something else to consider, is that if they ever found out that you had lied, they might very well go insane in a worse way.

But in any case, God knows about it. Every sin hurts the Body of Christ, whether it is “known” by people, or not. If you think shaving your head is bad, or doing other harmful or degrading things to your physical body is so bad, how much more so to do it to the Mystical Body of Christ? Lying degrades the Body of Christ, so you face the choice of choosing whether to harm or protect the physical body or the spiritual one. I would encourage you to avoid any moral injury first.

hurst

 

[ThisOne]

PMV,
How are you doing?

 

[PMV]

Yesterday I went for a walk, and brainstormed about the whole situation. I thought that even if it would be morally justified to fib to my mother and/or if I could arrive at Confession and Mass, another issue would come up; the intention of disobeying my mother. While I thought about this, I recall having a somewhat strengthening feeling, and thought that for God I should get it cut. Also, I thought about the independance I will have someday. I also probably thought about all the trouble that I was going through all because of this situation. For the sake of having what is most important to me, I decided to get my haircut. This was a big step for me, but I recall feeling temptation to forget doing this. However, when I got home, I asked to to just give me a haircut, and cut as much off as she wants. As for the way my hair is now, I think I could bear living with it, but I intend on growing more once I move out. Now I am allowed to go to Confession and Mass, and I have my other rights back!!
It may be pretty embarrasing walking around with this kind of hair, but perhaps I should meditate using “The Passion and Death of Jesus Christ”, by St. Alphonsus Liguori.
I do not intend on moving to a foster home any more. However, I have another question; If a person does not live with his parents and his parents made one or more demands to him, would it be a sin for him to disobey them? Because I intend on moving out of my house and not living with my parents someday, if my mom and/or dad demanded that I get a haircut would it be a sin for me to disobey them?
I thank everyone here who offered my their advice.

 

[ThisOne]

I’m so glad you found your answer, PMV. I’m sorry for the mistakes I made in my comments to you. I’m so delighted to read your words tonight. Hallelujah!

Once you are “of legal age” in your own state, you are your own man. Find out what is the “age of majority” in the state in which you live. There’s a state law in every state that establishes when you can vote, etc. It might well be 18 in your state. Google and you can find it quickly, I’m sure.