Being a traditional Catholic, not a Pharisee

[RyanML]

This is the Gospel for July 17th in the Ordinary Form:

At that time Jesus was going through a field of grain on the sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “See, your disciples are doing what is unlawful to do on the sabbath.” He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he and his companions were hungry, how he went into the house of God and ate the bread of offering, which neither he nor his companions but only the priests could lawfully eat? Or have you not read in the law that on the sabbath the priests serving in the temple violate the sabbath and are innocent? I say to you, something greater than the temple is here. If you knew what this meant, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned these innocent men. For the Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath.”

In the priest’s homily this morning, I was reminded that the Pharisees, though well intentioned, believed that the best way to be a good Jew was to follow the Law, and that perfectly. They concerned themselves so much with all the details of the Law that they forgot God. Jesus tells us that the highest law is first the love of God and then loving our neighbor as ourselves and that all other laws are at the service of this, the greatest of laws.

We traditional Catholics can sometimes get bogged down in defending and arguing traditional laws, customs, and rubrics to the point of frustration or exhaustion and almost forget about our Lord and charity towards our neighbor. How can we better witness the beauty and truth of Catholic tradition while always remembering that these things, in and of themselves, are of little importance if they do not serve the highest law of loving God and neighbor?

 

[Miles_Mariae]

We should keep in mind that if people don’t want to be convinced of something, argumentation probably won’t help. So if they won’t listen, stop wasting time trying to make them.

 

[damooster]

We should keep in mind that if people don’t want to be convinced of something, argumentation probably won’t help. So if they won’t listen, stop wasting time trying to make them.

That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be said. I think it’s a legitimate point.

 

[wisdomseeker]

This is the Gospel for July 17th in the Ordinary Form:

In the priest’s homily this morning, I was reminded that the Pharisees, though well intentioned, believed that the best way to be a good Jew was to follow the Law, and that perfectly. They concerned themselves so much with all the details of the Law that they forgot God. Jesus tells us that the highest law is first the love of God and then loving our neighbor as ourselves and that all other laws are at the service of this, the greatest of laws.

We traditional Catholics can sometimes get bogged down in defending and arguing traditional laws, customs, and rubrics to the point of frustration or exhaustion and almost forget about our Lord and charity towards our neighbor. How can we better witness the beauty and truth of Catholic tradition while always remembering that these things, in and of themselves, are of little importance if they do not serve the highest law of loving God and neighbor?

i dont take this is Jesus against those laws since God Himself gave these laws for them to follow. i think Jesus took the opportunity to tell them who He was. and because at the time the pharisees were not really following the laws, they were being hypocrits.
Jesus said to his disciples, obey them, do as they tell you but do not do as they do. they were not exactly doing what was right. this is not against the true and beautifull Worship done for Him. after VII people became more like the pharisees. dissobedients and dragging the Church down. it is almost like taking the authority of the Lord and putting ourselves above Him. we decide what is good and what is bad and not God. we must remember that Good comes from God and from ourselves. to destroy the Church, to forget the saints and Fathers, neglecting Church’s teachings, not teaching the people the Faith to show how good we are, we are not doing any good service to the Lord. in fact we lost many people to other religions due to the fact that many in the Church did not do
right by the people. we must let Him reign in our lives.
St Paul said: i leave you, i will not see you again. if anyone of you are lost, i am not guilt for i have tought you everything. it is the Church’s obligation to teach the Faith to the people and care for the people. Jesus said: Peter, do you love me? yes, Lord. then feed my sheep. attend to my sheep.

 

[RyanML]

i dont take this is Jesus against those laws since God Himself gave these laws for them to follow. i think Jesus took the opportunity to tell them who He was. and because at the time the pharisees were not really following the laws, they were being hypocrits.
Jesus said to his disciples, obey them, do as they tell you but do not do as they do. they were not exactly doing what was right. this is not against the true and beautifull Worship done for Him. after VII people became more like the pharisees. dissobedients and dragging the Church down. it is almost like taking the authority of the Lord and putting ourselves above Him. we decide what is good and what is bad and not God. we must remember that Good comes from God and from ourselves. to destroy the Church, to forget the saints and Fathers, neglecting Church’s teachings, not teaching the people the Faith to show how good we are, we are not doing any good service to the Lord. in fact we lost many people to other religions due to the fact that many in the Church did not do
right by the people. we must let Him reign in our lives.
St Paul said: i leave you, i will not see you again. if anyone of you are lost, i am not guilt for i have tought you everything. it is the Church’s obligation to teach the Faith to the people and care for the people. Jesus said: Peter, do you love me? yes, Lord. then feed my sheep. attend to my sheep.

True. And to clarify, the focus of my question is on traditional Catholic liturgical and devotional practices, not the Faith. Obviously we can not compromise the truth of our Faith. But, if we engage in dialogue or debates concerning traditional Catholic practices and become so frustrated and angry that it affects our spiritual lives and our charity, then are we not missing the point?

 

[wisdomseeker]

True. And to clarify, the focus of my question is on traditional Catholic liturgical and devotional practices, not the Faith. Obviously we can not compromise the truth of our Faith. But, if we engage in dialogue or debates concerning traditional Catholic practices and become so frustrated and angry that it affects our spiritual lives and our charity, then are we not missing the point?

yes. evangelizing is not forcing the Truth on others. Jesus many times got angry. we can tell by the way He spoke. those who reject the Truth will make us angry. take a break. if it turns into arguments, then stop and dont say anything any longer.

 

[RyanML]

yes. evangelizing is not forcing the Truth on others. Jesus many times got angry. we can tell by the way He spoke. those who reject the Truth will make us angry. take a break. if it turns into arguments, then stop and dont say anything any longer.

Hmmm…I wasn’t very clear about what I was asking in my OP. I guess what this Gospel passage made me think about was if perhaps some traditional Catholics put more emphasis on rules, rubrics, and traditions over the love of God and charity towards our neighbor. For example, I have a friend who supports things like communion in the hand, holding hands during the Our Father, contemporary style Masses like Lifeteen, and other such novelties. I may disagree with these things and strive to witness to the Church’s tradition by my example (meaning I will not participate in such things), but shouldn’t my attitude be more gentle and charitable? Even if these things aren’t the best expressions of our Catholic faith, doesn’t it do more good to recognize that many of these souls truly love the Lord and the Church, despite the fact that they are doing things that may be harmful since, most likely, they do them in good faith?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Hmmm…I wasn’t very clear about what I was asking in my OP. I guess what this Gospel passage made me think about was if perhaps some traditional Catholics put more emphasis on rules, rubrics, and traditions over the love of God and charity towards our neighbor. For example, I have a friend who supports things like communion in the hand, holding hands during the Our Father, contemporary style Masses like Lifeteen, and other such novelties. I may disagree with these things and strive to witness to the Church’s tradition by my example (meaning I will not participate in such things), but shouldn’t my attitude be more gentle and charitable? Even if these things aren’t the best expressions of our Catholic faith, doesn’t it do more good to recognize that many of these souls truly love the Lord and the Church, despite the fact that they are doing things that may be harmful since, most likely, they do them in good faith?

i am with you. charity is important. but charity does not mean accept whatever others are doing even if it is wrong. i hear the word love, charity a lot. sometimes i wonder. what i dont hear is people emphasizing the Truth. the ten Commandments and enforcing Church’s teaching. correction does not seem to take place in our society anymore. if there is no correction then people will not know what is wrong what is right. they just do it and someone else always finds an excuse and it is accepted. if the way to show love and charity is just smile and do not say anything to correct the wrong then wrong just continue to grow. that is exactly what we see today. the wrong has spreaded so far that it is difficult to change now.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Hmmm…I wasn’t very clear about what I was asking in my OP. I guess what this Gospel passage made me think about was if perhaps some traditional Catholics put more emphasis on rules, rubrics, and traditions over the love of God and charity towards our neighbor. For example, I have a friend who supports things like communion in the hand, holding hands during the Our Father, contemporary style Masses like Lifeteen, and other such novelties. I may disagree with these things and strive to witness to the Church’s tradition by my example (meaning I will not participate in such things), but shouldn’t my attitude be more gentle and charitable? Even if these things aren’t the best expressions of our Catholic faith, doesn’t it do more good to recognize that many of these souls truly love the Lord and the Church, despite the fact that they are doing things that may be harmful since, most likely, they do them in good faith?

Rules, rubrics, and traditon? May I tell you that my world was ripped out from under me in 1967? I have prayed for the last 42 years that that which was taken away from me would be restored. Where is the sensibilities for those of us who didn’t want what happened after Vatican II? Communion in the hand (I have always received on the tongue - I may not kneel but …) Doing the “wave” during the Our Father? We chanted the Our Father - English translation, note-for-note of the Latin Gregorian chant through the 70s.

I’ve sung in a cathedral choir for 20 years. I have seen liturgical dancing. Our entire world got turned around and dumped on our heads. I just went to my 40th high school reunion from a Catholic boys high school. My three podnahs who made sure that we sang Simon and Garfunkle at our graduation in 1969 were there. They are still playing (and I am going to use that word precisely) for alumni association Masses.

If I could pass them the musical score for “Sicut Cervus” by Palestrina, do you think they could sing it? I don’t. I sang in the choir for the Class of 1968’s graduation. There were no guitars and the music was traditional Catholic.

You younger folk tend to forget that there were many of us who are still alive who did not like what was done to us in 1965-1967. We submitted to the magesterium of HMC. I saw my mother and father reduced to attending the vigil Mass on Saturday because it was staight-forward and did not have the a’grinnin’ and a’strummin’ music.

Gentle and charitable? We were gentle and charitable back in the early 70’s when everything changed. It was called submitting to the magesterium. I’ve driven 25 miles one way for over 26 years. I attend a reverent NO cathedral parish.

May I suggest you hold a mirror up to your own presuppositions?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Rules, rubrics, and traditon? May I tell you that my world was ripped out from under me in 1967? I have prayed for the last 42 years that that which was taken away from me would be restored. Where is the sensibilities for those of us who didn’t want what happened after Vatican II? Communion in the hand (I have always received on the tongue - I may not kneel but …) Doing the “wave” during the Our Father? We chanted the Our Father - English translation, note-for-note of the Latin Gregorian chant through the 70s.

I’ve sung in a cathedral choir for 20 years. I have seen liturgical dancing. Our entire world got turned around and dumped on our heads. I just went to my 40th high school reunion from a Catholic boys high school. My three podnahs who made sure that we sang Simon and Garfunkle at our graduation in 1969 were there. They are still playing (and I am going to use that word precisely) for alumni association Masses.

If I could pass them the musical score for “Sicut Cervus” by Palestrina, do you think they could sing it? I don’t. I sang in the choir for the Class of 1968’s graduation. There were no guitars and the music was traditional Catholic.

You younger folk tend to forget that there were many of us who are still alive who did not like what was done to us in 1965-1967. We submitted to the magesterium of HMC. I saw my mother and father reduced to attending the vigil Mass on Saturday because it was staight-forward and did not have the a’grinnin’ and a’strummin’ music.

Gentle and charitable? We were gentle and charitable back in the early 70’s when everything changed. It was called submitting to the magesterium. I’ve driven 25 miles one way for over 26 years. I attend a reverent NO cathedral parish.

May I suggest you hold a mirror up to your own presuppositions?

good for you. i dont have this luxury where i live.

 

[rfpapcun]

A minor point, but correct semantics often aid in communication: If you’re quoting from the Gospel from the 17th in Ordinary Time, then you may be a conservative Catholic, but you’re definitely not a Traditional one.

Traditional Catholics follow the Traditional Catholic calendar and go exclusively to the Traditional Mass (and they don’t call it the “Extradordinary Form.”) Where I live, we have lots of people who drive one and one-half to two hours to the Traditional Mass. I know one fellow who drives for three hours.

 

[RyanML]

A minor point, but correct semantics often aid in communication: If you’re quoting from the Gospel from the 17th in Ordinary Time, then you may be a conservative Catholic, but you’re definitely not a Traditional one.

Traditional Catholics follow the Traditional Catholic calendar and go exclusively to the Traditional Mass (and they don’t call it the “Extradordinary Form.”) Where I live, we have lots of people who drive one and one-half to two hours to the Traditional Mass. I know one fellow who drives for three hours.

Actually, I drive 30 minutes to attend the Traditional Mass every Sunday rather than the Novus Ordo right down the street. I also attend the TLM throughout the week, when I am able. Because of my work schedule I can’t always make it to a traditional Mass and so instead of opting not to go to daily Mass at all, I go to a Novus Ordo. Believe me, if I could, I would attend the Traditional Mass exclusively but the grace of receiving our Lord in Holy Communion every day is there and so I take that opportunity.

Don’t misunderstand me, I think the innovations that the Church has seen over the last 40 years have had horrible consequences and as I said, I will not participate in them nor encourage them. But what good does it do me to kneel there at Mass, seeing people receive communion in the hand, and wonder “what kind of Catholics are these that would do such a thing”? For me, such thoughts can lead to spiritual pride. A traditional priest (FSSP) once told me that when we are tempted to think we are better than others because we are traditionalists, we should remember that it is a gift of grace. If these other people had the grace to see what I see, then no doubt they would be much better stewards of that grace than I am.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I’m not dead yet. I had the world ripped out from under me in 1967. I had been an altar boy for some 8 years and was in high school. Rode my bike to church and served 6am Mass with just Father and I in attendance. I have never received Communion in the hand. Domine, non sum dignus.

I have prayed and prayed for the last 40+ years that that which was lost would be restored. Not happening in my diocese. I don’t think that I am better. I just want that which was lost to me in 1967, restored.

 

[r4j]

Brothers and sisters - be careful - listen to yourselves. “I want this…”, “I want that…”- it harkens back to a garden 2,000 years ago - pride/arrogance. What does God want, what does Holy Church propose for our faith? We must submit to this - unless there is a violation of Church teaching. Christ’s humility is the offset for pride/arrogance.
Ryan - I think I understand your original post. And I agree with you. Sometimes, we miss the forest for the trees. And I think that scripture passage points that out. What is the antidote? I think we, you, me and all Christians, must enter all the more fully into trying to live our Christian calling all the more perfectly. And we will end up transforming ourselves and by doing so transform those around us - through our deeds, words, thoughts, actions, etc. They’ll say - 'we’ve never seen people like that - look at those Christians - how they love one another - how they endure suffering - how holy they are.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Brothers and sisters - be careful - listen to yourselves. “I want this…”, “I want that…”- it harkens back to a garden 2,000 years ago - pride/arrogance. What does God want, what does Holy Church propose for our faith? We must submit to this - unless there is a violation of Church teaching. Christ’s humility is the offset for pride/arrogance.
Ryan - I think I understand your original post. And I agree with you. Sometimes, we miss the forest for the trees. And I think that scripture passage points that out. What is the antidote? I think we, you, me and all Christians, must enter all the more fully into trying to live our Christian calling all the more perfectly. And we will end up transforming ourselves and by doing so transform those around us - through our deeds, words, thoughts, actions, etc. They’ll say - 'we’ve never seen people like that - look at those Christians - how they love one another - how they endure suffering - how holy they are.

And did I not see my parents and the parents of my neighborhood classmates relinquished to second class citizens in Holy Mother Church because they did not want the “a’strummin’ and a’grinnin” that came after Vatican II? Did they not submit to the Magesterium? They quit going to the 10:30 main Mass at our church and moved to the 8am Mass. When the 8am Mass went to "a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’, they went to the vigil Mass on Saturday. When I’d visit my mother and father, we’d go to the vigil Mass and there were all of my neighbors in the block.

Did I not go through the same thing? Deo gratias ite Deo gratias, that I was invited to join the cathedral choir in 1983. We have driven 25 miles one way for the last 26 years so that we could attend a reverent Mass without all the a’strummin’ and a’ grinnin’, turn around and introuduce yourself to your neighbor, the “wave” at the Lord’s Prayer, etc.

Sorry, r4j, we did submit to the Magesterium and what do we have? I can’t go to my local geographic parish because I am offended by the chit-chat before Mass. No, I don’t really want to know what hemorrhoid medicine you use (greeters in the narthex). No, I am not Southern Baptist and no I don’t want Mass to start with turn around and greet your neighbor. No, I don’t want to sing Protestant praise songs replete with drums and cymbals and guitars, etc. as the Entrance Hymn. What happened to Holy God We Praise Thy Name.?

Think I’m making this up? No, I don’t want to sing more Protestant praise music at the Offertory. Keep the drums, guitars, and cymbals. What happened to all the Offertory hymns I heard as a child?

What happened to the Lord’s Prayer that we chanted in English in the 70s - a note for note translation from the Latin? Gone and replaced by some a’strummin’ and a’grinin melody from OCP…and then we have the “wave” - a product of the 80s and not sanctioned by HMC but which everyone accepts as normal.

I don’t even want to think about the sign of peace. Father running up and down the aisles like some sort of rock star.

This is not the Mass I grew up with. It has nothing to do with my wants although I freely admit that I pray daily for the restoration of that which was taken away in 1967.

r4j- answer me this. What are you doing to restore that which was lost in 1967?

 

[jam070406]

And did I not see my parents and the parents of my neighborhood classmates relinquished to second class citizens in Holy Mother Church because they did not want the “a’strummin’ and a’grinnin” that came after Vatican II? Did they not submit to the Magesterium? They quit going to the 10:30 main Mass at our church and moved to the 8am Mass. When the 8am Mass went to "a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’, they went to the vigil Mass on Saturday. When I’d visit my mother and father, we’d go to the vigil Mass and there were all of my neighbors in the block.

Did I not go through the same thing? Deo gratias ite Deo gratias, that I was invited to join the cathedral choir in 1983. We have driven 25 miles one way for the last 26 years so that we could attend a reverent Mass without all the a’strummin’ and a’ grinnin’, turn around and introuduce yourself to your neighbor, the “wave” at the Lord’s Prayer, etc.

Sorry, r4j, we did submit to the Magesterium and what do we have? I can’t go to my local geographic parish because I am offended by the chit-chat before Mass. No, I don’t really want to know what hemorrhoid medicine you use (greeters in the narthex). No, I am not Southern Baptist and no I don’t want Mass to start with turn around and greet your neighbor. No, I don’t want to sing Protestant praise songs replete with drums and cymbals and guitars, etc. as the Entrance Hymn. What happened to Holy God We Praise Thy Name.?

Think I’m making this up? No, I don’t want to sing more Protestant praise music at the Offertory. Keep the drums, guitars, and cymbals. What happened to all the Offertory hymns I heard as a child?

What happened to the Lord’s Prayer that we chanted in English in the 70s - a note for note translation from the Latin? Gone and replaced by some a’strummin’ and a’grinin melody from OCP…and then we have the “wave” - a product of the 80s and not sanctioned by HMC but which everyone accepts as normal.

I don’t even want to think about the sign of peace. Father running up and down the aisles like some sort of rock star.

This is not the Mass I grew up with. It has nothing to do with my wants although I freely admit that I pray daily for the restoration of that which was taken away in 1967.

r4j- answer me this. What are you doing to restore that which was lost in 1967?

You just described my local Parish to a T. I remember hearing a song, alle…alle…alle…luuuuuuuh…jah, while everyone clapped to the beat.

It’s a shame too, this Church is in walking distance around the block.

But, I must drive 25 mins. or so to go to a reverant EF Mass.
Before the Moto Proprio came out I asked the priest at my local Parish if there was a possibility of having a EF Mass there. His reply was, “not while I’m here”

 

[wisdomseeker]

You just described my local Parish to a T. I remember hearing a song, alle…alle…alle…luuuuuuuh…jah, while everyone clapped to the beat.

It’s a shame too, this Church is in walking distance around the block.

But, I must drive 25 mins. or so to go to a reverant EF Mass.
Before the Moto Proprio came out I asked the priest at my local Parish if there was a possibility of having a EF Mass there. His reply was, “not while I’m here”

i asked the same to my priest and his answer was: never… very shocking to me. it is almost if they see this Mass is a horrible thing. i wonder where they got that from.

 

[brotherhrolf]

You just described my local Parish to a T. I remember hearing a song, alle…alle…alle…luuuuuuuh…jah, while everyone clapped to the beat.

It’s a shame too, this Church is in walking distance around the block.

But, I must drive 25 mins. or so to go to a reverant EF Mass.
Before the Moto Proprio came out I asked the priest at my local Parish if there was a possibility of having a EF Mass there. His reply was, “not while I’m here”

My bishop merely “acknowledged” the Motu Proprio. He instructed his attack dog chancellor to follow it up with a scathing editorial the next week in the diocesan newspaper about how “no one wants a Latin Mass”. I just love being reduced to “nothing”.Excuse me, Father, you didn’t ask me or any of the other members of the cathedera; choir before you made your grand pronouncement much less the folks across the diocese. You and our bishop don’t want a Latin Mass.

 

[r4j]

r4j- answer me this. What are you doing to restore that which was lost in 1967?

Dear brother - when you say you did submit to the Magisterium - are you saying they were wrong? Or are you saying, people have misconstrued what they said?
Certainly things have changed in practice. I’m 48 years old, was raised Catholic - great Catholic mother, Catholic grade school, dropped out of the church for 30 years, only 3 years back in it. In my parish, there’s basically 3 ‘types’ of Masses, one is called a ‘family’ Mass - they skip the 2nd reading, the chidlren are invited to sit in fron of the altar and the homily is brought to their level and there’s a bit of preaching to the grownups afterwards. Many grownups comment how they learn more from the kids’ homily because it focuses on basics. Then there’s the 6pm Mass with drums, guitars, lead singer. It’s pretty well attended, and the congregation is mixed - some old, some young, some families. My 12 year old son likes to go to it. He likes the idea of going to Mass at ‘night’ as he says. I take him sometimes, but I have to make sure he knows what we’re going to and what we’re going for. And I say the prayers, make the gestures and sing the hymns there just as I would do at any Mass - from a place of great adoration and devotion to our Lord.
The rest of the Masses are ordinary.
Now we just had a new priest join us and he’s not like anyone we’ve had. He’s got spunk. But a lot of the faithful a responding to him - oddly enough - the oldest folks mostly. Example, he gives his sermons and asks questions and in the beginning no one responded and he’s told us, it’s ok to answer him. But I think if a priest loves his bride, the church, that love will beget new life, just like God loving His Son and personified love, the Holy Spirit, is breathed forth.
Now, to make you dislike me more, I was thinking of going to my pastor and asking him about having a Mass where men only are invited. Now before you jump all over this, let me explain. I don’t wan to touch the essence of the Mass, it’s beauty, it’s holiness, it’s devoutness, it’s sacrificial centrality, etc. If one of iota of this will be disturbed, it’s a no go.
But I was thinking one day, it’s aweful that so many of us Catholics seem to disappear form the church for about 20 years from about high school until mid-life. Especially men. Think of the power loss to the church and to society from this. It just seems there ought to be something we can do about it. And as I think about what really helped me come back, it seemed to come down to information/education. So I was thinking if it was possible to have a Mass where men could come and get the info/teaching that could reach their hearts and minds and convince them of the need for faith.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Let me address the issue of my parents and the Magesterium. My parents were members of the “greatest generation”. Of the fourteen houses on our block, nine of the families were Catholic and all of the parents were members of the “greatest generation”. The men were all veterans of WWII.

They grew up with churches looking like churches. When our new parish was split off from our old parish in 1964, Vatican II had not concluded. Mass was held at our local playground’s gymnasium for awhile and then was moved to the ballroom of a country club.

When our new church was consecrated in May of 1967, the altar was in the middle of a great semi-circle. We had a brand new electronic organ, etc. By 1970, the organ was abandoned in favor of the guitars of my generation. Traditional hymns went out and were replaced by such classics as “Kumbaya”, the now pc incorrect “Sons of God”, “And They’ll Know We are Christians by our Love”.

In 1970, I was 19 and could sit with the adults and have coffee. My parents and my neighbors were simply floored by what had happened in just a little over two years. They did not like what had happened but they did not complain to Father - they submitted to the Magesterium. My parents and neighbors normally attended the 10:30 Mass on Sunday. They could not stand the guitars, etc. and so began attending the 8 am Mass - until the guitars came there. They finally ended up at the vigil Mass on Saturday because that was the only Mass where there was no music and all the “extras” provided by Vatican II were kept to a minimum. An entire generation marginalized to suit the whims of my generation. My beloved parish priest at the time was a combat chaplain. He jumped out of a plane at D-Day. Our archbishop at the time was a combat chaplain too. Do you honestly think that any of them expected what came out of Vatican II?

So much changed so quickly that I can’t begin to convey to you just how shocked most of us were out in the pews. I went down on bended knee to kiss my archbishop’s ring (since I was senior altar boy) in 1967? I haven’t seen that done in years and years. And what has been added in these last 40 years? I have never received the Eucharist in my hand. I can remember when I could kneel in peace before Mass and pray without having meet and greet going on all around me. I can remember when Mass started without the “turn around and greet your neighbor”. I can remember when we chanted the Pater Noster in Latin and later chanted it pretty much note-by-note in English until the a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’ folks got a hold of it. I don’t want to hold hands and do the “wave” and I don’t want to run up and down the aisles during the sign of peace. I can remember when all we did was turn to our neighbor and simply say “Peace be with you”.

So, when you say “I want this, I want that”, please explain to me how I am wrong as a traditional Catholic to simply want that which I had in 1967? That which I grew up with? That which my parents and grandparents had and grew up with?

Men only Masses? Been there, done that. Quite common before Vatican II. Holy Name Society, Confraternity of the Sacred Heart (I’m still a member). Such devotions weakened in the last 40 years.

I want to leave you with one final thing to consider. In May of 1967, I had completed my sophomore year at a Catholic high school. The Brothers wore cassocks, girded by large rosaries and had ebony and gold crucifixes on their chests. In September of 1967, we came back from summer vacation and the Brothers were in black slacks, white shirts, and black ties. No warning of things to come, BOOM. That was the effect of Vatican II. BOOM. And there was division amongst the Brothers - the older Brothers continued to wear the cassock.