Being a traditional Catholic, not a Pharisee

[PaulinVA]

Brotherhoff, you obviously are very deeply for the Church. I do have a question for you, though.

Your position seems to be that you wish things were the way they were in 1965. However, your reasons seem to be simply that’s what you are comfortable with, and you don’t/didn’t want to the changes because of personal taste.

I’m about ten years younger than you, and I can come up with a whole plethora of reasons why I don’t like the changes, but they are mostly because of where they seem to have led the Church and what they taught our generation and the next.

That said, I’ve talked to a lot of people about the the pre conciliar Church, and it wasn’t all rosey as people remember. There was a lot of superstition and people following the rules without knowing why or caring why. It was was boring and a lot of people got nothing out of it. That answers the legalism question in the title of the thread. Yes, a lot of people just followed the rules and went to a Mass they didn’t care to understand just so they wouldn’t go to Hell.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Brotherhoff, you obviously are very deeply for the Church. I do have a question for you, though.

Your position seems to be that you wish things were the way they were in 1965. However, your reasons seem to be simply that’s what you are comfortable with, and you don’t/didn’t want to the changes because of personal taste.

I’m about ten years younger than you, and I can come up with a whole plethora of reasons why I don’t like the changes, but they are mostly because of where they seem to have led the Church and what they taught our generation and the next.

That said, I’ve talked to a lot of people about the the pre conciliar Church, and it wasn’t all rosey as people remember. There was a lot of superstition and people following the rules without knowing why or caring why. It was was boring and a lot of people got nothing out of it. That answers the legalism question in the title of the thread. Yes, a lot of people just followed the rules and went to a Mass they didn’t care to understand just so they wouldn’t go to Hell.

I have heard the legalism arguments over the years and the rules and regs just so they wouldn’t go to Hell. I freely admit that the fear of going to hell plays a large part in the operation of my conscience. I would be lieing if I said different.

I am the product of 13 years of Catholic education supplemented by my mother before I became an altar boy. I can see her finger in my mind’s eye pointing out the Latin and the English in my “little St. Joseph’s Missal”.

No, I don’t want things to be the way they were in 1965. My father was not Catholic. My grandfather was and he married a divorced Protestant woman (ca. 1910). He was excommunicated from the Church and he was excommunicated from his family. You have no idea of the mental anguish I had or the prayers that I uttered that my father would be spared. One of the best things to come out of Vatican II was Ecumenism. My father returned to the Church of his ancestors before he passed away.

“Boring and people got nothing out of it?”…So, what did we do, replace it with drums and guitars and a lead singer? I’ll take the chant. I’ll take the Latin motets and the English motets too while we’re at it.

Personal taste? Mayhap. But I felt (and still feel) a connection with my ancestors - Irish, French, English, German, Dutch.

I quit going to Mass in the late 70s. Simply too much “innovation” at my local parish. In 1983 one of my co-workers, a Methodist, said, hey, arent’ you Catholic? Can you sing? She invited me to join the cathedral choir. Yes, a Methodist invited me to join our cathedral choir. A 25 mile drive one way. I have never looked back. My children were baptized, made their First Communion, and were Confirmed at the cathedral. A reverent NO Mass. OK we had almost a ten year hiatus when we couldn’t sing in Latin. (Believe me our Anglican brethren got note for note really good translations of Pange Lingua but singing Pange Lingua in English is like taking a shower with a a raincoat on).

In 1992 we had the Cardinal Archbishop of Lyons, France at our bicentennial Mass. He departed from script and gave the apostolic blessing in Latin. The response from our clergy was, um, dismal. The response from the cathedral choir? Us old fogeys knew how to respond. We have not looked back and we chant the sequences in Latin and sing Latin motets.

We are Catholics. We can’t just discharge our heritage as if it never existed. I am an anthropologist and historian by training. We can’t just ignore that which came before. what the Protestants did that 500 years ago.

As an aside…our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters and our Eastern Orthodox brethren…they did not go through this.

Sometimes, somewhere, you reconnect with the past.

 

[PaulinVA]

“Boring and people got nothing out of it?”…So, what did we do, replace it with drums and guitars and a lead singer? I’ll take the chant. I’ll take the Latin motets and the English motets too while we’re at it.
…
Sometimes, somewhere, you reconnect with the past.

{Raises Hand]Guilty! Yeah, I played in those folk masses.

The people in their seventies and eighties I’ve talked to thought the post VII Church was “more accessible” and they “got more out of it”. But, if the end result is a lack of reverence and a lack of belief in things like Transubstantiation, well, then, you really aren’t getting more out of it, are you?

I think that is where I am drawn to the past. Or, rather, I want to move forward by fostering an increase in faithfulness to the Church, and increase in reverence for our Lord, which is what we had 40 years ago.

Just following rules isn’t the answer, but by highlighting the “rules” and why we follow them, I think we could move forward. Unfortunately, the ordained right now don’t have the moral high ground to tell the faithful to do anything. So, pray for the Bishops.

 

[wisdomseeker]

My bishop merely “acknowledged” the Motu Proprio. He instructed his attack dog chancellor to follow it up with a scathing editorial the next week in the diocesan newspaper about how “no one wants a Latin Mass”. I just love being reduced to “nothing”.Excuse me, Father, you didn’t ask me or any of the other members of the cathedera; choir before you made your grand pronouncement much less the folks across the diocese. You and our bishop don’t want a Latin Mass.

May be he should read Jeremiah 23. great reading of today.
the funny thing is that our priest read this passage today and applied to the people. i think the Lord is talking to them mainly. this is about the leaders, the sheppard. that is them and not the people. perhaps they need to read this passage over and over again. i see how some priests always tell people how we need to repent. what i dont see is them recognize that they also could be wrong and need to repent.

:byzsoc:

 

[servantofall]

Dear brother - when you say you did submit to the Magisterium - are you saying they were wrong? Or are you saying, people have misconstrued what they said?
Certainly things have changed in practice. I’m 48 years old, was raised Catholic - great Catholic mother, Catholic grade school, dropped out of the church for 30 years, only 3 years back in it. In my parish, there’s basically 3 ‘types’ of Masses, one is called a ‘family’ Mass - they skip the 2nd reading, the chidlren are invited to sit in fron of the altar and the homily is brought to their level and there’s a bit of preaching to the grownups afterwards. Many grownups comment how they learn more from the kids’ homily because it focuses on basics. Then there’s the 6pm Mass with drums, guitars, lead singer. It’s pretty well attended, and the congregation is mixed - some old, some young, some families. My 12 year old son likes to go to it. He likes the idea of going to Mass at ‘night’ as he says. I take him sometimes, but I have to make sure he knows what we’re going to and what we’re going for. And I say the prayers, make the gestures and sing the hymns there just as I would do at any Mass - from a place of great adoration and devotion to our Lord.
The rest of the Masses are ordinary.
Now we just had a new priest join us and he’s not like anyone we’ve had. He’s got spunk. But a lot of the faithful a responding to him - oddly enough - the oldest folks mostly. Example, he gives his sermons and asks questions and in the beginning no one responded and he’s told us, it’s ok to answer him. But I think if a priest loves his bride, the church, that love will beget new life, just like God loving His Son and personified love, the Holy Spirit, is breathed forth.
Now, to make you dislike me more, I was thinking of going to my pastor and asking him about having a Mass where men only are invited. Now before you jump all over this, let me explain. I don’t wan to touch the essence of the Mass, it’s beauty, it’s holiness, it’s devoutness, it’s sacrificial centrality, etc. If one of iota of this will be disturbed, it’s a no go.
But I was thinking one day, it’s aweful that so many of us Catholics seem to disappear form the church for about 20 years from about high school until mid-life. Especially men. Think of the power loss to the church and to society from this. It just seems there ought to be something we can do about it. And as I think about what really helped me come back, it seemed to come down to information/education. So I was thinking if it was possible to have a Mass where men could come and get the info/teaching that could reach their hearts and minds and convince them of the need for faith.

A wonderful movement is spredaing throughout the catholic church that address your concern about men learning the importance of our faith; Catholic Men’s Fellowships /Groups are spreading around the country. Go to the National Fellowship of Catholic Men website to find one near you. Here’s the link.
nfcmusa.org/
You can also watch Crossing the Goal on EWTN, its a program aimed at catholic men that stressing our faith.

 

[ncjohn]

True. And to clarify, the focus of my question is on traditional Catholic liturgical and devotional practices, not the Faith. Obviously we can not compromise the truth of our Faith. But, if we engage in dialogue or debates concerning traditional Catholic practices and become so frustrated and angry that it affects our spiritual lives and our charity, then are we not missing the point?

Ryan, I applaud you for bringing out a very valiid question and being able to recognize that at times this does occur, just as much as it occurs from the “other side”.

Like Brotherhrolf, I was brought up in the pre-Vatican II church as an altar server, etc. Unlike him, I took the other road and did not ever feel part of that Church. In fact, it was attitudes very similar to what you describe in your OP that drove me from the Church for over 20 years. And on returning, I was overjoyed by the level of joy I found in my parish, though I have to admit that at times I have encountered some things that made me shake my head.

As has been noted though, “the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.” When we start to feel superiority over our preferences, or disdain for those of others who are trying just as hard to find and follow God’s will, we do indeed risk becoming like the Pharisee praying “thank you Lord for not making me like those others”.

I understand the dismay of those who have felt like second class citizens who had all they loved ripped out from under them. I also know though that responding in anger over that toward those who support your desires even while not sharing them isn’t the answer. Just as St. Paul called those “factions” following the different disciples to unity since Crist cannot be divided, we need to do the same today and remember who it is we serve and why.

Thank you for your thoughtful question. I think it is likely one of the most important ones in the Church as we try to move forward.

Peace,

 

[morkelkey]

*Hi dear friends,
I rather wish the catholic church would follow your lead and follow the times. But the catholic church is traditional and it follows only Christ.
*

 

[Windmill]

I was reading In Conversation With God, which is one of the more orthodox meditations that follow the contemporary cycle of readings. It’s put out by Opus Dei, and is very helpful to me in my spirituality. In this particular passage, the author made a good point: “God desires virtue more than austerity.” Now, these two are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but if austerity becomes more important than virtue, then it is preventing you from growing in holiness.

 

[Layman]

You guys have it all wrong.

You should be swept up in the wonderful fellowship of feeling that accompanies an N.O.+novelties, and put aside your concerns about CITH, EMHCs, lay lectors, bare churches, priests-as-performers, etc.

Because what you feel is more important than external symbolism. If you complain about the latter, you’re a Pharisee*.

.

.

** Note: sarcasm]*

 

[m134e5]

Rules, rubrics, and traditon? May I tell you that my world was ripped out from under me in 1967? I have prayed for the last 42 years that that which was taken away from me would be restored. Where is the sensibilities for those of us who didn’t want what happened after Vatican II? Communion in the hand (I have always received on the tongue - I may not kneel but …) Doing the “wave” during the Our Father? We chanted the Our Father - English translation, note-for-note of the Latin Gregorian chant through the 70s.

I’ve sung in a cathedral choir for 20 years. I have seen liturgical dancing. Our entire world got turned around and dumped on our heads. I just went to my 40th high school reunion from a Catholic boys high school. My three podnahs who made sure that we sang Simon and Garfunkle at our graduation in 1969 were there. They are still playing (and I am going to use that word precisely) for alumni association Masses.

If I could pass them the musical score for “Sicut Cervus” by Palestrina, do you think they could sing it? I don’t. I sang in the choir for the Class of 1968’s graduation. There were no guitars and the music was traditional Catholic.

You younger folk tend to forget that there were many of us who are still alive who did not like what was done to us in 1965-1967. We submitted to the magesterium of HMC. I saw my mother and father reduced to attending the vigil Mass on Saturday because it was staight-forward and did not have the a’grinnin’ and a’strummin’ music.

Gentle and charitable? We were gentle and charitable back in the early 70’s when everything changed. It was called submitting to the magesterium. I’ve driven 25 miles one way for over 26 years. I attend a reverent NO cathedral parish.

May I suggest you hold a mirror up to your own presuppositions?

Something truly demonic was going on in those days. I see no other way to explain the reckless way people threw out the liturgy, statues, candlesticks, altars, tabernacle veils, and other sacred things. Something beyond natural rebelliousness was behind that- only demons have such revulsion for the sacred.

 

[RyanML]

You guys have it all wrong.

You should be swept up in the wonderful fellowship of feeling that accompanies an N.O.+novelties, and put aside your concerns about CITH, EMHCs, lay lectors, bare churches, priests-as-performers, etc.

Because what you feel is more important than external symbolism. If you complain about the latter, you’re a Pharisee*.

** Note: sarcasm]*

I hope that is not how my OP comes across. We have to recognize when these novelties are disrespectful, irreverent, harmful and a danger to ones faith and virtue. We can’t just put our heads in the sand and let it happen. I think we have to do our part by not participating in these things and speaking out against them when it is prudent. But how many traditionalists harp on and on about this or that abuse but won’t give his neighbor the time of day, or worse, he will be nice to their face but then behind their backs talk about how horrible they are for not wearing a skirt that falls below the knees or because they don’t wear veils to Mass, or because they say ‘Holy Spirit’ instead of ‘Holy Ghost’.

Charity is the highest law and yet sometimes we act like Communion on the tongue and Mass in latin is the end all and be all of Christian discipleship. And this is the point of my post. How do we defend and promote traditional Catholic piety and practice without falling into the sin of the Pharisees? We can’t go to the extreme of saying that if you’re not a traditional Catholic you aren’t a good Catholic, nor can we pretend that the Church has experienced a “springtime” in the past 40 years and bury our heads in the sand. So where’s that middle ground where we keep our faith and defend tradition but remain in charity?

.

.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Something truly demonic was going on in those days. I see no other way to explain the reckless way people threw out the liturgy, statues, candlesticks, altars, tabernacle veils, and other sacred things. Something beyond natural rebelliousness was behind that- only demons have such revulsion for the sacred.

agreed. yesterday at Mass, i noticed how terrible people dress, specially women, the men not so bad. i notice it is getting worse by the day. teenagers comes to Mass in those sexy clothes, some comes in pajams tshirts and very small tight shorts something you sleep with, women dressed with half dress, like the whole back uncovered. some with half of the breasts exposed. the whole attitutede of the people is not Catholic, i dont know what is but it is not Catholic. then i hear the priest invite those who left the Church to come back. it is embaressing to invite anyone to Mass to see such a sacrilege in the House of God. do i hear any priest say anything? no. for they dont behave well themselves either. i see also teenagers sitting with their legs bend and feet on the seats, just chating with one another. total disrespect for the Eucharist. i feel like talking to father. but who knows, he probably get mad at me. now and days i couldnt tell the diference between protestant preaching and Catholic priests. what is the problem with these priests? the priest tells us to evangelize every sunday at Mass. i keep think how could we? with this kind of attitude who would want anything to do with us? Lord have Mercy.

 

[RyanML]

agreed. yesterday at Mass, i noticed how terrible people dress, specially women, the men not so bad. i notice it is getting worse by the day. teenagers comes to Mass in those sexy clothes, some comes in pajams tshirts and very small tight shorts something you sleep with, women dressed with half dress, like the whole back uncovered. some with half of the breasts exposed. the whole attitutede of the people is not Catholic, i dont know what is but it is not Catholic. then i hear the priest invite those who left the Church to come back. it is embaressing to invite anyone to Mass to see such a sacrilege in the House of God. do i hear any priest say anything? no. for they dont behave well themselves either. i see also teenagers sitting with their legs bend and feet on the seats, just chating with one another. total disrespect for the Eucharist. i feel like talking to father. but who knows, he probably get mad at me. now and days i couldnt tell the diference between protestant preaching and Catholic priests. what is the problem with these priests? the priest tells us to evangelize every sunday at Mass. i keep think how could we? with this kind of attitude who would want anything to do with us? Lord have Mercy.

“But for the grace of God, there go I”

The sad truth is that these kids don’t know the Faith because they haven’t been taught. Besides that, the example from parents may not be that good either. Going to Mass has become a chore, something done out of obligation or a social event at best. If you talk about the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in traditional language, I don’t know if many people would know what you are talking about. We see these things and yes they are wrong. But we see them because we’ve been given the grace to see them. Those kids wearing immodest clothing to Mass may not know any better, but for our own humility and charity we should think that were they given the grace to know better, they would respond more generously to the Lord than we have. Just a thought

 

[wisdomseeker]

“But for the grace of God, there go I”

The sad truth is that these kids don’t know the Faith because they haven’t been taught. Besides that, the example from parents may not be that good either. Going to Mass has become a chore, something done out of obligation or a social event at best. If you talk about the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in traditional language, I don’t know if many people would know what you are talking about. We see these things and yes they are wrong. But we see them because we’ve been given the grace to see them. Those kids wearing immodest clothing to Mass may not know any better, but for our own humility and charity we should think that were they given the grace to know better, they would respond more generously to the Lord than we have. Just a thought

that is it. the parents were not thought either. if you notice the text from yesterday on Jeremiah. that was for the shepards. how they scared the people of God and did not teach the people. God wanted to pass judgement on them. what i heard from the priest yesterday was if God was talking to the people and not to the shepard. very disturbing to me. the priest is leading us to believe that there is no authority anymore, it is the people who must assume authority. there is no longer separation of shepards and people. very disturbing.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Like Brotherhrolf, I was brought up in the pre-Vatican II church as an altar server, etc. Unlike him, I took the other road and did not ever feel part of that Church. In fact, it was attitudes very similar to what you describe in your OP that drove me from the Church for over 20 years. And on returning, I was overjoyed by the level of joy I found in my parish, though I have to admit that at times I have encountered some things that made me shake my head.

But that is precisely my point, John. Look at your choice of words. I “did not ever feel part of that Church.” I did. I do. But it is unam sanctam catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam. Is it not? Awful lot of people left behind, John, an awful lot. They kept their mouths shut, obeyed the Magesterium, and migrated like my mother and father to the Vigil Mass on Saturday.

I am glad that you have found joy in your parish. I have found joy in mine but I have to drive 25 miles and have driven 25 miles for over 25 years to find that joy. Do you know how many parishes I drive through in that 25 miles?

John, you have your parish and your joy and my friend I would never do anything to take that away from you. But 40 years ago the baby was thrown out with the bathwater. The Holy Father obviously thought about those of us who have been praying for 40 years that that which was taken away would be restored. You know the story of my diocese and that I am still praying.

It is not either/or, John, it is both/and - unam sanctam catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam. I’m sorry, John. I am tired of driving 25 miles to go to a NO Mass which is reverent. I don’t want to hear chit-chat before Mass, I want to pray. I don’t want to greet my neighbor ( I am not a protestant and we are not Southern Baptists). I don’t want to hear guitars and drums nor do I want my neighbor to grab my hand and force me to do the wave at the Lord’s Prayer. I don’t want all the running up and down the aisles and a 10 minute sign of peace.

Yes, there are elitists amongst traditional Catholics. I’m not one of them. I would be perfectly happy with the Masses I knew and served as a kid. I would be even happier (since I can’t serve) if I could sing for a Missa Cantata even once a month. Is that so much to ask for, John? Once a month. A Missa Cantata where the congregation chants the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Pater Noster, Agnus Dei like we did when I was a kid.

There is an almost irrational fear of the TLM. John, you grew up with it. Your mamma and daddy grew up with it. Your grandparents grew up with it. Let those of us who want to return to it do so.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

I consider myself to be very fortunate, because I went to a Catholic school with a Pastor who was VERY slow to make any changes. We still had the traditional Mass before school until the late 1970’s. I have wonderful memories of those early morning masses, and I wish there was a place I could go to experience that again.

 

[ncjohn]

But that is precisely my point, John. Look at your choice of words. I “did not ever feel part of that Church.” I did. I do. But it is unam sanctam catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam. Is it not? Awful lot of people left behind, John, an awful lot. They kept their mouths shut, obeyed the Magesterium, and migrated like my mother and father to the Vigil Mass on Saturday.

I am glad that you have found joy in your parish. I have found joy in mine but I have to drive 25 miles and have driven 25 miles for over 25 years to find that joy. Do you know how many parishes I drive through in that 25 miles?

John, you have your parish and your joy and my friend I would never do anything to take that away from you. But 40 years ago the baby was thrown out with the bathwater. The Holy Father obviously thought about those of us who have been praying for 40 years that that which was taken away would be restored. You know the story of my diocese and that I am still praying.

It is not either/or, John, it is both/and - unam sanctam catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam. I’m sorry, John. I am tired of driving 25 miles to go to a NO Mass which is reverent. I don’t want to hear chit-chat before Mass, I want to pray. I don’t want to greet my neighbor ( I am not a protestant and we are not Southern Baptists). I don’t want to hear guitars and drums nor do I want my neighbor to grab my hand and force me to do the wave at the Lord’s Prayer. I don’t want all the running up and down the aisles and a 10 minute sign of peace.

Yes, there are elitists amongst traditional Catholics. I’m not one of them. I would be perfectly happy with the Masses I knew and served as a kid. I would be even happier (since I can’t serve) if I could sing for a Missa Cantata even once a month. Is that so much to ask for, John? Once a month. A Missa Cantata where the congregation chants the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Pater Noster, Agnus Dei like we did when I was a kid.

There is an almost irrational fear of the TLM. John, you grew up with it. Your mamma and daddy grew up with it. Your grandparents grew up with it. Let those of us who want to return to it do so.

I am in almost total agreement with almost all that you say, brother. It can’t be either/or, it MUST be both/and. I think Ryan has hit it on the head with his question about how we balance refusing to accept the abuses without getting all caught up in the acrimony and the superiority complexes, forgetting the “prime directive” along the way.

We both know that abuses are nothing new and that they were just as prevalent, if in different form, before the Pauline Mass even came into being. In the end though, as I see it, the problem comes from the extremes on both ends of the spectrum who just can’t allow for the possibility that both liturgies are completely legitimate ways of approaching God and that there are both saints and sinners who favor the different forms.

Yes, there was overreaction in the way the TLM was swept away. Yes, there are still places where SP is being ignored or obstructed. Attacking the OF in retaliation, thereby alienating many who would otherwise be more than willing to go to the mat with those who support the EF if they weren’t be attacked, is not only counter-productive, but lacking in basic Christian charity as Ryan notes.

“They’ll know we are Christians by the way we love one another.” I’d truly love to see that become a reality again.

Peace,

 

[Layman]

But how many traditionalists harp on and on about this or that abuse but won’t give his neighbor the time of day, or worse, he will be nice to their face but then behind their backs talk about how horrible they are for not wearing a skirt that falls below the knees or because they don’t wear veils to Mass, or because they say ‘Holy Spirit’ instead of ‘Holy Ghost’.

Charity is the highest law and yet sometimes we act like Communion on the tongue and Mass in latin is the end all and be all of Christian discipleship. And this is the point of my post. How do we defend and promote traditional Catholic piety and practice without falling into the sin of the Pharisees? We can’t go to the extreme of saying that if you’re not a traditional Catholic you aren’t a good Catholic, nor can we pretend that the Church has experienced a “springtime” in the past 40 years and bury our heads in the sand. So where’s that middle ground where we keep our faith and defend tradition but remain in charity?

You’ve got it all wrong.

The traditional Catholics I know don’t say bad things about people who attend the N.O. or about the N.O. itself. They just don’t speak much about them at all, full stop.

Instead, we have a bit of a chat after Mass, go to the pub, talk about cricket or the next TLM.

 

[EasterJoy]

“They’ll know we are Christians by the way we love one another.” I’d truly love to see that become a reality again.

Based on the epistles, that became a problem pretty early on.

As for being a Pharisee, one can do that over whether one brings one’s own bag to the grocery store instead of using throw-away or feels strongly about changing bedsheets within a certain interval or how important it is to get enough fiber or how much TV you let your kids watch or whether or not you answer in strict honesty when someone asks if a dress makes them look fat. If you can have an opinion about it, you can think yourself superior in the eyes of God on account of your observances on the matter, whether or not you happen to be correct.

The difference is not in whether you pursue the good, or even if you do it zealously. The Lord made it clear that there is even a time for overturning some tables, when the House of God was being profaned. Nowhere does the New Testament suggest that a Christian may not bluntly call a sin out for what it is. Zeal and humility can and have gone together.

The difference is in whether your prayers begin to be tainted with “Thank you, Lord, for not making me a sinner…” rather than “Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me…”

 

[r4j]

Ryan - I’m with you and many of these other posters. Have there been abuses from Vatican II - absolutely. Is the church indefectable holy - yes. Are its members? No. As I heard a priest say - ‘God has put obvious limits on our intelligence, but none at all on our ignorance. We can mess up. We can make all kinds of mistakes.’ But I think we have to pray for discernment. Sometimes, we should speak up, if there’s a liturgical abuse, for example. Sometimes, maybe the best thing is to do what you’re doing BrotherH and find a Mass that you like better - maybe driving those extra miles and expending that extra time can be offered off for someone who doesn’t go to Mass at all - maybe you can listen to some strummin and grinnin music on the drive and maybe you’ll find you like it (I’m not being wise - I’m just kidding with you). Sometimes, maybe you just have to make the best of a situation. I’m in the parish that had the priest that was stalking Conan O’Brien. I used to go to confession to the guy and had invited him over for dinner.
One thing I hold in high esteem is self-examination. It almost doesn’t matter to me what’s going on around me - I don’t mean I put my head in the sand or would put up with any clear doctrinal abuse - but whatever Mass I’m at and however it’s being celebrated, I’m there to thank God, love God, ask for His forgiveness, accept the beauty and grace that He shows us all, ask for more humility, pray to be a great soldier in His army, maybe help convert someone and love people like you, etc., etc., Amen.