Being a traditional Catholic, not a Pharisee

[PaulinVA]

I hear this all the time and am simply puzzled.
…
I do not notice traditional Catholics on L&S calling for humility from adherents of the OF. I do notice adherents of the OF criticizing Catholics who have a) discovered the Mass of the Ages or b) (like myself) had that Mass taken away from them in 1967.

Just for a second, contemplate why you hear “all the time” that adherents of the TLM need a little humility. Perhaps it’s the attitude they are projecting. To make that observation is meant to be constructive, just as a comment that adherents of the NO need to be more reverent is also constructive.

I would hope that we could have a conversation that would lead to not only a better understanding of others, but also a better understanding of ourselves.

PaulinVA, were you around on the First Sunday of Advent in December, 1969 when the OF was formally installed? I was. I was 18. The OF on that day is a different Mass from what you see in most parishes today. A whole lot has changed in the last 40 years.
…
It is possible to discuss differences without resorting to “wearing one’s feelings on one’s sleeve”. It is possible to remember that there are still significant numbers of us still alive who were comfortable with the TLM under which we grew up as well as significant numbers of us who embraced the NO in December, 1969.

If those of us who sat in a pew on that First Sunday of Advent in December of 1969 can discuss our differences surely everyone else can.

Let’s bury that sword. OK?

Yes, I was younger but I remember. I certainly hope that we could discuss these issues without feelings hampering our ability to see the whole picture, or having empathy for our brother Catholics.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

mkingdomlvr;5480116:

To mkingdomlvr and contra mundum. I am not doubting the beauty of the Mass. I was commenting about what I perceive as the attitude of the attendees that post here. Just a call for a little humility.

I’m sorry, but I fail to see what in my comments was “lacking humility”. I was raised with the TLM and I prefer it to this day. Am I not allowed to even express that opinion for fear of offending those that do not?

 

[PaulinVA]

I’m sorry, but I fail to see what in my comments was “lacking humility”. I was raised with the TLM and I prefer it to this day. Am I not allowed to even express that opinion for fear of offending those that do not?

I did not say that your comments lacked humility. I talked about the holier than thou attitude of some TLM adherents, and you posted about your personal experience of “finally worshiping God the way you were raised to”.

So, I said, yes, it’s beautiful, but a little humility (among adherents) would be nice. I was simply echoing the comment in my previous post, because you had not specifically addressed it.

Definitely not an attack.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Just for a second, contemplate why you hear “all the time” that adherents of the TLM need a little humility. Perhaps it’s the attitude they are projecting. To make that observation is meant to be constructive, just as a comment that adherents of the NO need to be more reverent is also constructive.

I would hope that we could have a conversation that would lead to not only a better understanding of others, but also a better understanding of ourselves.

Yes, I was younger but I remember. I certainly hope that we could discuss these issues without feelings hampering our ability to see the whole picture, or having empathy for our brother Catholics.

And perhaps it is the adherents of the OF who are wearing their hearts on their sleeves? I’m not seeing a whole lot of empathy for my position. Particularly when I get told to “offer it up” or “come out of my box”.

That Mass celebrated on the First Sunday of Advent way back when was an abbreviated version of the TLM in English. If you will recall, most of the congregations’ response was nothing more than exactly what the congregation responded to in the Missa Cantata except that it was in English and there were slight changes to the chant to accommodate English meter. There was no demonstrable sign of peace. We simply turned to our neighbor and said “Peace be with you”. There was only one canon - Eucharistic Prayer 1 (The Roman Canon). There was no communion in the hand - we knelt at the communion rail. We still sang the hymns we sang with the TLM. Yes, there were more readings (Amen to that) and a Psalm (Amen to that too) but other than being in English, it was, as I said, simply and abbreviated version of the TLM. Oh, yeah, the organ still played.

What happened to that Mass? I’m sorry Paulin, the Mass that was introduced on the First Sunday of Advent, December, 1969 bears little resemblance to what goes on today in most parishes. I am happy to say that my cathedral parish is infinitely closer to that “norm” than my local geographic parish but even we only use the Roman canon on feast days.

I still don’t understand why it is permissible for me to be told to “offer it up” or “come out of my box”. I don’t think any of you can understand my shock and dismay when the guitars came out for my high school graduation that May and I was forced to sing Simon and Garfunkle’s “Bridge over Troubled Waters” and “Sounds of Silence” for our graduation Mass.

I just had my 40th reunion. The three guys who were behind that were present. One is heading for the diaconate. I brought the subject up. They did it because they wanted to see just how far they could push before they met resistance. Typical teenagers then and in accord with what was going on in this country in 1969.

So. All I am saying is that I was happy with Holy Mother Church as a teenager. My spirituality was so deepened because I was an altar boy and because before our parish’s church was built, I served the TLM with just Father and me present in the rectory and then when the Sisters came and the convent was built, in the convent.

I’ve seen way too much in these last 40 years. My bishop merely “acknowledged” the Motu Proprio. The chancellor of the diocese followed the acknowledgement with a scathing editiorial in the diocesan newspaper stating unequivocably that “no one wants the Latin Mass”. As a member of the cathedral parish and as a twenty year member of the cathedral choir, do you honestly think I am going to press the issue and force Father to run counter to the bishop?

I’m not sitting in judgment nor am I a Pharisee. If you are happy with the OF as it exists in your parish, more power to you. I’m not asking you to give up anything you have. But, please, please, do not tell me that I simply need to “offer it up” or “come out of my box”.

I wish we could celebrate just one Missa Cantata like I knew as a kid just once a month. My parish already knows the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei since we use them during Lent.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

And perhaps it is the adherents of the OF who are wearing their hearts on their sleeves? I’m not seeing a whole lot of empathy for my position. Particularly when I get told to “offer it up” or “come out of my box”.

That Mass celebrated on the First Sunday of Advent way back when was an abbreviated version of the TLM in English. If you will recall, most of the congregations’ response was nothing more than exactly what the congregation responded to in the Missa Cantata except that it was in English and there were slight changes to the chant to accommodate English meter. There was no demonstrable sign of peace. We simply turned to our neighbor and said “Peace be with you”. There was only one canon - Eucharistic Prayer 1 (The Roman Canon). There was no communion in the hand - we knelt at the communion rail. We still sang the hymns we sang with the TLM. Yes, there were more readings (Amen to that) and a Psalm (Amen to that too) but other than being in English, it was, as I said, simply and abbreviated version of the TLM. Oh, yeah, the organ still played.

What happened to that Mass? I’m sorry Paulin, the Mass that was introduced on the First Sunday of Advent, December, 1969 bears little resemblance to what goes on today in most parishes. I am happy to say that my cathedral parish is infinitely closer to that “norm” than my local geographic parish but even we only use the Roman canon on feast days.

I still don’t understand why it is permissible for me to be told to “offer it up” or “come out of my box”. I don’t think any of you can understand my shock and dismay when the guitars came out for my high school graduation that May and I was forced to sing Simon and Garfunkle’s “Bridge over Troubled Waters” and “Sounds of Silence” for our graduation Mass.

I just had my 40th reunion. The three guys who were behind that were present. One is heading for the diaconate. I brought the subject up. They did it because they wanted to see just how far they could push before they met resistance. Typical teenagers then and in accord with what was going on in this country in 1969.

So. All I am saying is that I was happy with Holy Mother Church as a teenager. My spirituality was so deepened because I was an altar boy and because before our parish’s church was built, I served the TLM with just Father and me present in the rectory and then when the Sisters came and the convent was built, in the convent.

I’ve seen way too much in these last 40 years. My bishop merely “acknowledged” the Motu Proprio. The chancellor of the diocese followed the acknowledgement with a scathing editiorial in the diocesan newspaper stating unequivocably that “no one wants the Latin Mass”. As a member of the cathedral parish and as a twenty year member of the cathedral choir, do you honestly think I am going to press the issue and force Father to run counter to the bishop?

I’m not sitting in judgment nor am I a Pharisee. If you are happy with the OF as it exists in your parish, more power to you. I’m not asking you to give up anything you have. But, please, please, do not tell me that I simply need to “offer it up” or “come out of my box”.

I wish we could celebrate just one Missa Cantata like I knew as a kid just once a month. My parish already knows the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei since we use them during Lent.

I agree-I’m tired of being told that I should forget about the Mass I knew and loved and “get with the times” and that I’m acting “high and mighty” because I prefer to worship at the TLM.

I see no need for the OF to go away, and I do not believe that it is somehow invalid or that people who prefer it are less holy.

The Bishop in my diocese also feels that the TLM is not popular, but frankly, most Catholics today have never experienced it so how do they know? I would like to see every parish offer a TLM at a reasonable hour for at least one season. Let people actually experience it for a decent amount of time and I do think it will become more popular. I don’t think it will ever replace the OF, but if we can have Children’s Masses, Spanish Masses and Filipino Masses in nearly every parish why can’t we have a Latin Mass??

 

[brotherhrolf]

I did not say that your comments lacked humility. I talked about the holier than thou attitude of some TLM adherents, and you posted about your personal experience of “finally worshiping God the way you were raised to”.

Paulin, you said that you were younger than me on that First Sunday of Advent.

Holier than thou? In what way? Mkingdomlvr speaks truth. Makes sense to me because I know that I am not the only one who grew up with the TLM and who was happy with the TLM.

I can give you an easy answer to this. I have made no secret that I have sung in a cathedral choir for 20 years. For the first ten years, we were forbidden from singing Latin. (Imagine that. Catholics forbidden from singing Latin). We had to use the 1940 Episcopalian hymnal because they had decent translations of all the chants and sequences.

Sing My Tounge the Savior’s Glory may be note for note on Holy Thursday but it is not Pange Lingua Gloriosi. It is like taking a shower with a raincoat on. All of that because we rejected our heritage. It took the Cardinal Archbishop of Lyons, France to depart from the script and give the Apostolic Blessing in Latin at our 200th anniversary to break the ban.

How embarrassing that only five people in a 30 member choir and a handful of priests were able to respond to the Archbishop in Latin.

 

[PaulinVA]

Guys, I am not happy with the way Mass is celebrated in my parish. I am not happy with the way people dress. I am not happy that there is not a second of silence from before Mass until the recessional. I am not happy that the majority of people in the pews with me apparently support abortion and birth control.

I just am looking for ways to move forward, not backwards. Is the answer the return to 1962? No. Is the answer an increase in respect for the clergy? Yes. Is the answer preaching about what we believe? Absolutely! Is the answer prayer for the Bishops? Yes. Is the answer sniping between the different groups in the Church with the common goal of increasing reverence for our Lord and his commandments? No.

I don’t mean to offend. I really do want to see a renewed Church.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Guys, I am not happy with the way Mass is celebrated in my parish. I am not happy with the way people dress. I am not happy that there is not a second of silence from before Mass until the recessional. I am not happy that the majority of people in the pews with me apparently support abortion and birth control.

I just am looking for ways to move forward, not backwards. Is the answer the return to 1962? No. Is the answer an increase in respect for the clergy? Yes. Is the answer preaching about what we believe? Absolutely! Is the answer prayer for the Bishops? Yes. Is the answer sniping between the different groups in the Church with the common goal of increasing reverence for our Lord and his commandments? No.

I don’t mean to offend. I really do want to see a renewed Church.

’

The Holy Father obviously sees a need to remember those of us who had our roots ripped out way back when. He would not have issued the Motu Proprio had he believed otherwise.

Moving forward? Like we’ve done for the last 40 years? What has happened to respect for the Holy Eucharist in the last 40 years?

Do you honestly think that you can persuade folks in your parish to genuflect upon entering or leaving a pew? Or genuflecting when they pass in front of the tabernacle? Or making the sign of the cross when they pass in front of a Catholic church? Just us old fogies at the cathedral do this. Have you seen how most kids are catechized today to receive their First Communion?

Paulin, I’m sorry. I’ve driven 25 miles one way for 25 years to attend a reverent OF. I had to vote with my feet. In 1983 when I was invited to join the cathedral choir, I had to have an exit interview with my local parish priest. (Such permission is not needed now. Anyone can become a member of the cathedral parish).

I gave Father honest answers as a Catholic who grew up before Vatican II. Father released me from the parish but, in a formal letter, he stated to me that if I were on death’s door he would not respond. I am not making that up.

That letter made it to the Bishop and the Bishop did what he had to do.

Looking backwards and regrouping may very well be the answer. I can’t help but notice that there is an irrational fear of the EF.

I applaud the young people who have embraced the EF. As Fr. Z says “one brick at a time”.

 

[PaulinVA]

brotherhrolf, yes, we need to move forward. ** **We can’t go *back *to 1962.

Part of the solution to the problem might well be a increase in availability of the EF. Maybe in a generation it will be preferred. But lack of the EF is not the problem.

The problem is a lack of reverence, caused by a lack of belief. That is what needs to be solved. The solution is in the seminaries. It’s in the CCD classes. It’s in the Catholic schools. It’s at Mass. It’s at prayer.

A reverent OF is a start, as you have said. We are really concerned with the revival of the Church.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I would be the last one to wish a wholesale return to 1962. You have no idea about how it is to grow up with a Protestant father and a strict interpretation of no salvation outside of the church. My father, grandmother, aunt and uncle? You have no idea.

Anything goes today. Anything. I’m OK; you’re OK. I’m just supposed to “offer it up”.

When I joined my cathedral parish in 1983. we had two hundred parishoners. That’s my number on my envelopes - 200. The cathedral parish must be doing something right because the envelopes are labled above 3000 today.

The cathedral parish is a downtown parish in which the downtown has been abandoned. Where are all the parishoners coming from unless they yearn for that which is missing in their local parish?

 

[PaulinVA]

brotherhrolf, I’m glad that you have found a place to attend Mass that you are comfortable.

 

[ML561]

One of the reasons I converted to Catholicism was that I could no longer deal with what I called the “hippification” of the Methodist Church in which I was raised.That particular church had always had reverent and respectful services up until the early 1970’s, when new ministers and staff took over and decided that more “excitement” was needed to attract young people to church. Thus we started having beanbag chairs, rock star posters and rock music in the youth group meetings–which repelled me–and the encouragement of talking and shaking hands in the worship service–which repelled my parents. (My folks still belong to that church and they are still quite dismayed at the lack of dignity which is displayed, even by their ministers, in an effort to attract more people.

It has been disheartening at times for me to have visited some parishes in which the sign of peace lasts ten minutes and is treated as a time for parishioners to catch up on what their family is doing, etc., and the Eucharist is like a cocktail hour.

I can only sum this up in the wise words given to my dad by a reverent Methodist minister:
“We speak to God before the service. God speaks to us during the service. We speak to each other after the service.” Peace be with you all.

 

[JustaServant]

One of the reasons I converted to Catholicism was that I could no longer deal with what I called the “hippification” of the Methodist Church in which I was raised.That particular church had always had reverent and respectful services up until the early 1970’s, when new ministers and staff took over and decided that more “excitement” was needed to attract young people to church. Thus we started having beanbag chairs, rock star posters and rock music in the youth group meetings–which repelled me–and the encouragement of talking and shaking hands in the worship service–which repelled my parents. (My folks still belong to that church and they are still quite dismayed at the lack of dignity which is displayed, even by their ministers, in an effort to attract more people.

It has been disheartening at times for me to have visited some parishes in which the sign of peace lasts ten minutes and is treated as a time for parishioners to catch up on what their family is doing, etc., and the Eucharist is like a cocktail hour.

I can only sum this up in the wise words given to my dad by a reverent Methodist minister:
“We speak to God before the service. God speaks to us during the service. We speak to each other after the service.” Peace be with you all.

Interesting that you cite the 1970s.
There was a wind of change in society and culture at that time. It crossed the Tiber and denominational lines. In the Catholic Church it was called the ‘spirit of Vatican 2’.
I keep hearing that traditionalist want to “return to 1962” because they are locked in that era (I was only a year old in 1962). But if I see anyone ‘locked’ in a time warp, they are the people who seem to think the CC didn’t START until Vatican 2. They seem locked in the 1960s and 70s.
I think we need to start thinking generationaly. What legacy do we have to carry on for our children? The Catholic Church is 2000 years old. The late 20th century is only one tiny segment of the vast history we are a part of. The ‘spirit’ of Vatican 2 (as I see it) is already fading. We need to replace it with what we know has worked for two millenium.

 

[SHW]

I can only sum this up in the wise words given to my dad by a reverent Methodist minister:
“We speak to God before the service. God speaks to us during the service. We speak to each other after the service.” Peace be with you all.

Beautiful!

We have constant talking, and not always quietly either, before Mass. One of the 3 deacons is the worst. It is difficult, sometimes impossible, to pray, especially if some loud talkers are sitting either directly behind or in front. Then the organist starts playing and much too loudly so that concentration is about nil. The Church is locked soon after the last Mass and they turn out the lights so that we will leave.

Matthew 21:13
And He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a ‘den of thieves."

They have made our church a noisy auditorium. I’m sure that God is not pleased. They are also not listening to our bishop who has stated that silence should be maintained in church before Mass.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

brotherhrolf, yes, we need to move forward. ** **We can’t go *back *to 1962.

Part of the solution to the problem might well be a increase in availability of the EF. Maybe in a generation it will be preferred. But lack of the EF is not the problem.

The problem is a lack of reverence, caused by a lack of belief. That is what needs to be solved. The solution is in the seminaries. It’s in the CCD classes. It’s in the Catholic schools. It’s at Mass. It’s at prayer.

A reverent OF is a start, as you have said. We are really concerned with the revival of the Church.

I keep thinking of how we judge something by the fruits it produces. The “fruits” of abandoning the Latin Mass IMHO is the lack of reverence, lack of belief, anything goes attitude that we see in many parishes today.

 

[PaulinVA]

I keep thinking of how we judge something by the fruits it produces. The “fruits” of abandoning the Latin Mass IMHO is the lack of reverence, lack of belief, anything goes attitude that we see in many parishes today.

I could just as easily blame the seminaries that produced the priests.

I don’t think that it’s just the lack of the TLM. It’s many factors. And just plopping the TLM back down in place of the NO isn’t going to solve anything

 

[RyanML]

brotherhrolf, yes, we need to move forward. ** **We can’t go *back *to 1962.

Part of the solution to the problem might well be a increase in availability of the EF. Maybe in a generation it will be preferred. But lack of the EF is not the problem.

The problem is a lack of reverence, caused by a lack of belief. That is what needs to be solved. The solution is in the seminaries. It’s in the CCD classes. It’s in the Catholic schools. It’s at Mass. It’s at prayer.

A reverent OF is a start, as you have said. We are really concerned with the revival of the Church.

If you study the history of the modern liturgical reform, you realize that a huge part of the problem today is exactly because the new rite differs so drastically from the traditional rite, especially in how it is currently celebrated. If you look at the changes the Protestants made to liturgy after the Reformation, you will see that many of the same changes were made in the immediate post Conciliar reform. Pope Benedict, when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, made it very clear that the abrupt and unorganic liturgical changes have had negative effects on the life of the Church.

Yes, we need to bring back reverence and orthodoxy, but it won’t do any good if you have a liturgy that looks like the local Episcopalian or Methodist service. Lex orandi, lex credendi. The answer to the reform of the OF is to look to our tradition, learn from it, and celebrate a rite that clearly expresses the faith of the Church and an organic liturgical development.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

I could just as easily blame the seminaries that produced the priests.

I don’t think that it’s just the lack of the TLM. It’s many factors. And just plopping the TLM back down in place of the NO isn’t going to solve anything

Pretty well covered by the quote below:

If you study the history of the modern liturgical reform, you realize that a huge part of the problem today is exactly because the new rite differs so drastically from the traditional rite, especially in how it is currently celebrated. If you look at the changes the Protestants made to liturgy after the Reformation, you will see that many of the same changes were made in the immediate post Conciliar reform. Pope Benedict, when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, made it very clear that the abrupt and unorganic liturgical changes have had negative effects on the life of the Church.

Yes, we need to bring back reverence and orthodoxy, but it won’t do any good if you have a liturgy that looks like the local Episcopalian or Methodist service. Lex orandi, lex credendi. The answer to the reform of the OF is to look to our tradition, learn from it, and celebrate a rite that clearly expresses the faith of the Church and an organic liturgical development.

The people I went to school with would NEVER think of spending time before Mass in conversation about yesterday’s football game, where they are having brunch after Mass or doing anything other than praying. We would never pass a tabernacle without genuflecting or a Catholic Church without making the sign of the cross. Not out of habit, but because we were taught well just what it was that we would be receiving and what was in that tabernacle and in that Church and our daily school masses reflected that.

IMHO, the weekly masses most attend now do NOT show the reverence and importance of the Eucharist and that’s why we have the behaviors we see. If we return to a liturgy that shows the proper reverence for the Eucharist, then we will see the people’s attitude change.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I could just as easily blame the seminaries that produced the priests.

I don’t think that it’s just the lack of the TLM. It’s many factors. And just plopping the TLM back down in place of the NO isn’t going to solve anything

No, but there are seminaries and we have seminarians from CAF who are attending these seminaries who are determined to “stem the tide”.

“Plopping the TLM back down”. Paulin, hate to tell you this but I still have my “big” 1962 St. Joseph’s Missal which was given to me when I was Confirmed in 1963. DW still has hers. I was an altar boy until 1968. There are more than enough of us who are “not dead yet; we’re feeling better” that a) know how to use those Missals; b) could still serve a TLM after brushing up on the rubrics; and c) can still sing the chants and sacred motets.

As Fr. Z. wdtprs.com/blog/ says: “Brick by brick”.

 

[PaulinVA]

IMHO, the weekly masses most attend now do NOT show the reverence and importance of the Eucharist and that’s why we have the behaviors we see. If we return to a liturgy that shows the proper reverence for the Eucharist, then we will see the people’s attitude change.

I agree that there are a lot of weekly Masses that do not show proper reverence. I disagree that people’s attitudes will change just because their is more reverence. Reverence comes from belief. We need to work on the belief as well as the worship.