Being a traditional Catholic, not a Pharisee

[PaulinVA]

“Plopping the TLM back down”. Paulin, hate to tell you this but I still have my “big” 1962 St. Joseph’s Missal which was given to me when I was Confirmed in 1963. DW still has hers. I was an altar boy until 1968. There are more than enough of us who are “not dead yet; we’re feeling better” that a) know how to use those Missals; b) could still serve a TLM after brushing up on the rubrics; and c) can still sing the chants and sacred motets.
.

I’m happy for you. But that doesn’t address the millions of Catholics who would fight the return of the TLM, or the millions who would be lost if it was suddenly instituted.

I think the idea that the TLM will solve all problems is wrong, as I’ve said before. The clergy and the laity need to be instructed on the beliefs of the Church, specifically the Real Presence, and we need to increase in reverence together.

The TLM itself will not bring a return to reverence. It’s much more complicated than that.

 

[Malkin71]

And did I not see my parents and the parents of my neighborhood classmates relinquished to second class citizens in Holy Mother Church because they did not want the “a’strummin’ and a’grinnin” that came after Vatican II? Did they not submit to the Magesterium? They quit going to the 10:30 main Mass at our church and moved to the 8am Mass. When the 8am Mass went to "a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’, they went to the vigil Mass on Saturday. When I’d visit my mother and father, we’d go to the vigil Mass and there were all of my neighbors in the block.

Did I not go through the same thing? Deo gratias ite Deo gratias, that I was invited to join the cathedral choir in 1983. We have driven 25 miles one way for the last 26 years so that we could attend a reverent Mass without all the a’strummin’ and a’ grinnin’, turn around and introuduce yourself to your neighbor, the “wave” at the Lord’s Prayer, etc.

Sorry, r4j, we did submit to the Magesterium and what do we have? I can’t go to my local geographic parish because I am offended by the chit-chat before Mass. No, I don’t really want to know what hemorrhoid medicine you use (greeters in the narthex). No, I am not Southern Baptist and no I don’t want Mass to start with turn around and greet your neighbor. No, I don’t want to sing Protestant praise songs replete with drums and cymbals and guitars, etc. as the Entrance Hymn. What happened to Holy God We Praise Thy Name.?

Think I’m making this up? No, I don’t want to sing more Protestant praise music at the Offertory. Keep the drums, guitars, and cymbals. What happened to all the Offertory hymns I heard as a child?

What happened to the Lord’s Prayer that we chanted in English in the 70s - a note for note translation from the Latin? Gone and replaced by some a’strummin’ and a’grinin melody from OCP…and then we have the “wave” - a product of the 80s and not sanctioned by HMC but which everyone accepts as normal.

I don’t even want to think about the sign of peace. Father running up and down the aisles like some sort of rock star.

This is not the Mass I grew up with. It has nothing to do with my wants although I freely admit that I pray daily for the restoration of that which was taken away in 1967.

r4j- answer me this. What are you doing to restore that which was lost in 1967?

Brotherhrolf

You are right in what you said. Now this is someone who was born after and grew up in the post VII atmosphere. When looking at Pre and Post VII artwork, Prayerbooks, Hymnnals, reverence, attitudes, you see a loss. In the past 5 years I have begun to read more books and articles about the Catholic Faith. I do feel that I wished that they taught this in when I was in school. When I was in school They did not talk at all about it. The only thing They mentioned was before The Mass was in Latin and now it is in English. When going to my first E.F. I found out it was more than that. Also, when looking at both forms side by side I see a Great Big Difference. Also, there is less emphasis on knowing what it means to be a Catholic. 7 years ago I would be in the middle. Now after reading what was lost and seeing what has happen to the Catholic Church. I am in favor of the E.F. I rather drive 15 min to the Latin Mass here in Pittsburgh than attending my Parish a few blocks down the street. When reading these forums you can see a big division.

 

[Malkin71]

Hmmm…I wasn’t very clear about what I was asking in my OP. I guess what this Gospel passage made me think about was if perhaps some traditional Catholics put more emphasis on rules, rubrics, and traditions over the love of God and charity towards our neighbor. For example, I have a friend who supports things like communion in the hand, holding hands during the Our Father, contemporary style Masses like Lifeteen, and other such novelties. I may disagree with these things and strive to witness to the Church’s tradition by my example (meaning I will not participate in such things), but shouldn’t my attitude be more gentle and charitable? Even if these things aren’t the best expressions of our Catholic faith, doesn’t it do more good to recognize that many of these souls truly love the Lord and the Church, despite the fact that they are doing things that may be harmful since, most likely, they do them in good faith?

The reason why the I believe emphasis is made to believe on rubrics and traditions is because the church passed down and followed the traditions for hundreds of years. All the glory in works by art work, great Cathedrals, both Women and Male Saints, books, and by martyerdom. Contributed greatly in the Churches developement. This includes both the Western and the Eastern Churches which includes the Eastern Orathrodox .churches.

When you have followed traditions and one day someone comes in and says forget the past we are doing something different. The general feeling is “What happened”? Some followed because they did not question authority. They were used to being obedient. Some did not changed. They stayed the course. While the rest left.

Also, people were not properly explained what was going on. They got their news from the basic 3 networks, their local paper and the Church. Now with the advent of the Internet, Bookstores, and Catholic magazines, and web forums, people can get a better understanding on what is going on in the church.

Lastly, what decade did the changes take place? What was the overall mood?

 

[wisdomseeker]

I agree that there are a lot of weekly Masses that do not show proper reverence. I disagree that people’s attitudes will change just because their is more reverence. Reverence comes from belief. We need to work on the belief as well as the worship.

not true. if people begin seeing reverence in the Mass by the priests, the attitude of the people will change. we can see that because with the changes in the Mass since VII, peoples attitude also changed to be irreverent.

protestants did have a great influence in the changes of the Church. the CC is now more like protestants than Catholics. there is no emphaze in the Truth of the CC. i hear priests quoting protestants ministries. why not quoting the Fathers of the Church instead?

i dont think that priests even know the Catechism of the CC.

 

[PaulinVA]

not true. if people begin seeing reverence in the Mass by the priests, the attitude of the people will change. we can see that because with the changes in the Mass since VII, peoples attitude also changed to be irreverent.

protestants did have a great influence in the changes of the Church. the CC is now more like protestants than Catholics. there is no emphaze in the Truth of the CC. i hear priests quoting protestants ministries. why not quoting the Fathers of the Church instead?

i dont think that priests even know the Catechism of the CC.

There are millions of people in the Church, and the Church is hierarchical. I don’t see how the people, by seeking reverence, can really change anything. If our leaders, the priests, don’t know their faith, THAT is the place to start. As they increase in knowledge and reverence, they can affect the laity.

 

[wisdomseeker]

There are millions of people in the Church, and the Church is hierarchical. I don’t see how the people, by seeking reverence, can really change anything. If our leaders, the priests, don’t know their faith, THAT is the place to start. As they increase in knowledge and reverence, they can affect the laity.

that is what i just said. it has to begin with the shepards.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

I agree that there are a lot of weekly Masses that do not show proper reverence. I disagree that people’s attitudes will change just because their is more reverence. Reverence comes from belief. We need to work on the belief as well as the worship.

It comes from belief, but how is that belief passed on? If the liturgy expresses the necessary reverence, people will learn from it.

I agree that liturgy alone won’t get the job done, but it’s a vitally important component. That weekly example goes a long way.

 

[CradleCath]

Rules, rubrics, and traditon? May I tell you that my world was ripped out from under me in 1967? I have prayed for the last 42 years that that which was taken away from me would be restored. Where is the sensibilities for those of us who didn’t want what happened after Vatican II? Communion in the hand (I have always received on the tongue - I may not kneel but …) Doing the “wave” during the Our Father? We chanted the Our Father - English translation, note-for-note of the Latin Gregorian chant through the 70s.

I’ve sung in a cathedral choir for 20 years. I have seen liturgical dancing. Our entire world got turned around and dumped on our heads. I just went to my 40th high school reunion from a Catholic boys high school. My three podnahs who made sure that we sang Simon and Garfunkle at our graduation in 1969 were there. They are still playing (and I am going to use that word precisely) for alumni association Masses.

If I could pass them the musical score for “Sicut Cervus” by Palestrina, do you think they could sing it? I don’t. I sang in the choir for the Class of 1968’s graduation. There were no guitars and the music was traditional Catholic.

You younger folk tend to forget that there were many of us who are still alive who did not like what was done to us in 1965-1967. We submitted to the magesterium of HMC. I saw my mother and father reduced to attending the vigil Mass on Saturday because it was staight-forward and did not have the a’grinnin’ and a’strummin’ music.

Gentle and charitable? We were gentle and charitable back in the early 70’s when everything changed. It was called submitting to the magesterium. I’ve driven 25 miles one way for over 26 years. I attend a reverent NO cathedral parish.

May I suggest you hold a mirror up to your own presuppositions?

AMEN!! It’s been a while…I didn’t bale on you, Brotherholf… just had massive computer problems which I’ve finally solved by purchasing a new one.

I, too, remember the treatment we received when they pretty much threw out the Church of our childhood. Unlike you, it took me a few years to realize the fact that this totally new Catholicism…, without nuns, without statues in our Churches…or Communion rails…or kneelers, or Confessionals, etc. …went far deeper than the outside changes.

Could I speak to my siblings, my friends, (or God forbid…to my pastor) about my feelings without being called a ‘stumbling block’?? Nope, I learned to keep my mouth shut, for if it bothered me to hold the Eucharist in my own unconsecrated hands, if I wanted enough quiet during Mass to actually meditate on what was happening of the altar, if I cried when the Tantum Ergo was replaced by “Gift of Finest Wheat”…& I actually spoke up about that, I was treated like a pariah. At the age of 25. I was branded as an “obstructionist”, a few years later…a dissident & SPXXer. (I have NEVER attended an SSPX Mass & never will, because of the harsh words they speak about our Pope.)

I have no memory of being treated with “kindness & charity” by the majority of those who embraced the new “Catholic lite mentality”. I try to give better treatment to those who disagree with me re the TLM & the faith that goes with it…better, by far, than I received.

 

[wisdomseeker]

hopefully better priests will come soon. just yesterday at father Pacwa program he read an email from a parishoner who ask father if what her priest said during Mass was right. the priest had said that the multiplying of the food among 5000 was not real. the jews had brought food inside their sleeves, so they shared the food with all others. and the real miracle was about sharing the food among them. father Pacwa was surprised by this. he said just stick with what the Bible says. there is no miracle in sharing food with others. many people do this. in fact, he said that it is very common among jews to share foods.

this is the kind of thing we hear at Mass. my priest once told us that the Jonas story was not real, it is just a fable. there was no whale at that time. this shocked me for Jesus even quoted the book of Jonas. i dont know where they get their studies from, but it is not from the CC.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

hopefully better priests will come soon. just yesterday at father Pacwa program he read an email from a parishoner who ask father if what her priest said during Mass was right. the priest had said that the multiplying of the food among 5000 was not real. the jews had brought food inside their sleeves, so they shared the food with all others. and the real miracle was about sharing the food among them. father Pacwa was surprised by this. he said just stick with what the Bible says. there is no miracle in sharing food with others. many people do this. in fact, he said that it is very common among jews to share foods.

this is the kind of thing we hear at Mass. my priest once told us that the Jonas story was not real, it is just a fable. there was no whale at that time. this shocked me for Jesus even quoted the book of Jonas. i dont know where they get their studies from, but it is not from the CC.

That sermon must be online somewhere, because I heard it in NJ a few years ago. I also heard one about Jesus “not really getting angry” at the moneychangers in the Temple because Jesus wouldn’t ever act angrily towards anyone.

 

[r4j]

I don’t know folks -
After reading many of the posts I come away with these thoughts.

1. It’s hard to reach agreement when terms are not defined - i.e. how do you define ‘reverance’. Could be different depending on who you ask. What are we taught to do? Look to the Magisterium of the church - the ‘one’ voice for us all, what do they say.
2. I don’t see what we’ve “lost”. The way the Mass is celebrated has changed but not in essence.
3. I heard a priest say that the enemy of God took the high road in the last xxx number of years - what’s the high road - education - got into our seminaries, Catholic universities, etc. We need to do the same to fight back - many of you have mentioned this. I’m doing my best at home - I’ve got a wife of 18 years that I try and keep faith alive for, I have a 16 year old daughter that I’m trying to teach in the ways of God (she has a great prayer life), I’ve got a 12 year old son who I’m trying to teach to accept God and faith and a 15 month old who already says ‘Amen’. And I’m doing my best in the world.
4. I am a recent re-convert - 2+ years ago. I’ve spent a lot of time studying the faith and self examining the last 2 years. Those two activities, in my humble opinion, are critical for me, maybe for others. A lot of good change has come from them.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I don’t know folks -
After reading many of the posts I come away with these thoughts.

1. It’s hard to reach agreement when terms are not defined - i.e. how do you define ‘reverance’. Could be different depending on who you ask. What are we taught to do? Look to the Magisterium of the church - the ‘one’ voice for us all, what do they say.
2. I don’t see what we’ve “lost”. The way the Mass is celebrated has changed but not in essence.
3. I heard a priest say that the enemy of God took the high road in the last xxx number of years - what’s the high road - education - got into our seminaries, Catholic universities, etc. We need to do the same to fight back - many of you have mentioned this. I’m doing my best at home - I’ve got a wife of 18 years that I try and keep faith alive for, I have a 16 year old daughter that I’m trying to teach in the ways of God (she has a great prayer life), I’ve got a 12 year old son who I’m trying to teach to accept God and faith and a 15 month old who already says ‘Amen’. And I’m doing my best in the world.
4. I am a recent re-convert - 2+ years ago. I’ve spent a lot of time studying the faith and self examining the last 2 years. Those two activities, in my humble opinion, are critical for me, maybe for others. A lot of good change has come from them.

bless you for coming into the Catholic Faith again. the problem is not into all the parishes but many.

in my area all the new Churches have no kneelers. the music goes from country to radio songs like. all this contribute to the attitude towards the Mass irreverency.

 

[PaulinVA]

hopefully better priests will come soon. just yesterday at father Pacwa program he read an email from a parishoner who ask father if what her priest said during Mass was right. the priest had said that the multiplying of the food among 5000 was not real. the jews had brought food inside their sleeves, so they shared the food with all others. and the real miracle was about sharing the food among them. father Pacwa was surprised by this. he said just stick with what the Bible says. there is no miracle in sharing food with others. many people do this. in fact, he said that it is very common among jews to share foods.

How can someone read the first reading last Sunday from Second Kings and not think it was a foreshadowing of what Jesus did? You’ve got to be blind and deaf:

**A man came from Baal-shalishah bringing to Elisha, the man of God,
twenty barley loaves made from the firstfruits,
and fresh grain in the ear.
Elisha said, “Give it to the people to eat.”
But his servant objected,
“How can I set this before a hundred people?”
Elisha insisted, “Give it to the people to eat.”
“For thus says the LORD,
'They shall eat and there shall be some left over.’”
And when they had eaten, there was some left over,
as the LORD had said. **

 

[iona_scribe]

This is the Gospel for July 17th in the Ordinary Form:

In the priest’s homily this morning, I was reminded that the Pharisees, though well intentioned, believed that the best way to be a good Jew was to follow the Law, and that perfectly. They concerned themselves so much with all the details of the Law that they forgot God. Jesus tells us that the highest law is first the love of God and then loving our neighbor as ourselves and that all other laws are at the service of this, the greatest of laws.

We traditional Catholics can sometimes get bogged down in defending and arguing traditional laws, customs, and rubrics to the point of frustration or exhaustion and almost forget about our Lord and charity towards our neighbor. How can we better witness the beauty and truth of Catholic tradition while always remembering that these things, in and of themselves, are of little importance if they do not serve the highest law of loving God and neighbor?

My Bible study group covered this episode in the Gospel of Mark just recently. We’re using the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible guide by Scott Hahn and Curtis Mitch. Anyhow…the authors’ commentary on the Pharisees was very interesting. They hold that the continual conflicts between Jesus and the Pharisees were not really about disagreements over scripture, but were about about a sharp difference in mission. The Pharisees really wanted to be rid of Roman rule and felt that the best way to obey God and gain his assistance in this aim was to separate themselves as much as possible from the Gentiles by strictly emphasizing points of Jewish identity (the sabbath, ritual purity, etc.) Jesus, of course was trying to extend God’s covenant to the Gentiles. In doing this he often had to remind them that the law was designed to serve man and not the other way around.

In my evangelical days it was easy to stray into a “rules are silly, we should throw them away” interpretation of this passage, so I really appreciated this Catholic perspective which incorporates the historical background.

After all that, now to try and answer the OP’s question I’ve been growing to love the traditional Mass more and more. I wish that my fellow Catholics who are unfamiliar with it could experience and appreciate it. Speaking personally of my own conscience, I’m aware that my motivation for attending the EF Mass should not include the desire to “escape” the OF but should include the desire to cultivate a personal understanding of the truth and beauty of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass which can then enrich the whole of the Church.

My peers are of the generation who just don’t know what they’re missing because they’ve been told the old mass was very broken and needed fixing. Starting a dialogue by criticizing the OF will make a person feel defensive. Staring with a description of your latest transcendently beautiful experience at EF Mass (told with infectious enthusiasm) will open doors or at least give thoughtful pause to skeptics.

 

[wisdomseeker]

How can someone read the first reading last Sunday from Second Kings and not think it was a foreshadowing of what Jesus did? You’ve got to be blind and deaf:

**A man came from Baal-shalishah bringing to Elisha, the man of God,
twenty barley loaves made from the firstfruits,
and fresh grain in the ear.
Elisha said, “Give it to the people to eat.”
But his servant objected,
“How can I set this before a hundred people?”
Elisha insisted, “Give it to the people to eat.”
“For thus says the LORD,
'They shall eat and there shall be some left over.’”
And when they had eaten, there was some left over,
as the LORD had said. **

these are homily of many priests now and days in the Church. they need to give their homily from the Catechism of the Church. this way he gets education and so does the people.

we hear many heretical preaching from priests. what can we do?

 

[wisdomseeker]

My Bible study group covered this episode in the Gospel of Mark just recently. We’re using the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible guide by Scott Hahn and Curtis Mitch. Anyhow…the authors’ commentary on the Pharisees was very interesting. They hold that the continual conflicts between Jesus and the Pharisees were not really about disagreements over scripture, but were about about a sharp difference in mission. The Pharisees really wanted to be rid of Roman rule and felt that the best way to obey God and gain his assistance in this aim was to separate themselves as much as possible from the Gentiles by strictly emphasizing points of Jewish identity (the sabbath, ritual purity, etc.) Jesus, of course was trying to extend God’s covenant to the Gentiles. In doing this he often had to remind them that the law was designed to serve man and not the other way around.

In my evangelical days it was easy to stray into a “rules are silly, we should throw them away” interpretation of this passage, so I really appreciated this Catholic perspective which incorporates the historical background.

After all that, now to try and answer the OP’s question I’ve been growing to love the traditional Mass more and more. I wish that my fellow Catholics who are unfamiliar with it could experience and appreciate it. Speaking personally of my own conscience, I’m aware that my motivation for attending the EF Mass should not include the desire to “escape” the OF but should include the desire to cultivate a personal understanding of the truth and beauty of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass which can then enrich the whole of the Church.

My peers are of the generation who just don’t know what they’re missing because they’ve been told the old mass was very broken and needed fixing. Starting a dialogue by criticizing the OF will make a person feel defensive. Staring with a description of your latest transcendently beautiful experience at EF Mass (told with infectious enthusiasm) will open doors or at least give thoughtful pause to skeptics.

blessings to your Catholic baby.

 

[iona_scribe]

blessings to your Catholic baby.

Thank you!

 

[RyanML]

My Bible study group covered this episode in the Gospel of Mark just recently. We’re using the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible guide by Scott Hahn and Curtis Mitch. Anyhow…the authors’ commentary on the Pharisees was very interesting. They hold that the continual conflicts between Jesus and the Pharisees were not really about disagreements over scripture, but were about about a sharp difference in mission. The Pharisees really wanted to be rid of Roman rule and felt that the best way to obey God and gain his assistance in this aim was to separate themselves as much as possible from the Gentiles by strictly emphasizing points of Jewish identity (the sabbath, ritual purity, etc.) Jesus, of course was trying to extend God’s covenant to the Gentiles. In doing this he often had to remind them that the law was designed to serve man and not the other way around.

In my evangelical days it was easy to stray into a “rules are silly, we should throw them away” interpretation of this passage, so I really appreciated this Catholic perspective which incorporates the historical background.

After all that, now to try and answer the OP’s question I’ve been growing to love the traditional Mass more and more. I wish that my fellow Catholics who are unfamiliar with it could experience and appreciate it. Speaking personally of my own conscience, I’m aware that my motivation for attending the EF Mass should not include the desire to “escape” the OF but should include the desire to cultivate a personal understanding of the truth and beauty of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass which can then enrich the whole of the Church.

My peers are of the generation who just don’t know what they’re missing because they’ve been told the old mass was very broken and needed fixing. Starting a dialogue by criticizing the OF will make a person feel defensive. Staring with a description of your latest transcendently beautiful experience at EF Mass (told with infectious enthusiasm) will open doors or at least give thoughtful pause to skeptics.

I think it can be hard to have a completely positive dialogue with someone concerning the traditional Mass because so often the question is asked “why do you go to the latin Mass?”. The answer to that question, for myself and for so many, is because the OF, as normally celebrated, is lacking. And as you say, people then become defensive. We know that we must always keep our charity and humility but how do we also express to others our love of tradition in a positive manner without compromising our convictions. Most traditionalists won’t concede that things like hand-holding during the Our Father, communion in the hand, over use of EMHCs, lack of modesty, and general irreverence are not problematic. Any suggestions on ways to express our love for tradition in a positive manner without becoming polemical or compromising our convictions?

 

[SHW]

There are millions of people in the Church, and the Church is hierarchical. I don’t see how the people, by seeking reverence, can really change anything. If our leaders, the priests, don’t know their faith, THAT is the place to start. As they increase in knowledge and reverence, they can affect the laity.

I agree. It is hierarchical. The Blessed Virgin Mary stated to Jacinta, already in 1919, in the Fatima messages, that the clergy and religious are disobedient.

loveandmercy.org/loveandmercy/fatima.htm#messages

"You must pray much for sinners and priests and religious.”

"Priests must be pure, very pure. They should not busy themselves with anything except what concerns the Church and souls. The disobedience of priests and religious to their superiors and to the Holy Father gravely displeases Our Lord.”

The “spirit of Vatican II” and its failure to continue to support certain ideas/traditions pertaining to “orthodoxy” should be laid at the disobedient clergies’ and disobedient religious’ feet since they began this “revolution.” The sheep (lay persons) merely followed. Vatican II was meant as a pastoral council only.

I remember my grandmother stating, "I am not going to wear a hat to church anymore because “Sr. “?” does not wear one and she knows all the rules since she is a nun.” (This was before Canon Law was changed, but she did not know that Canon Law even existed.)

It is true that Protestants want everyone to be like them because they do not want a pope and so don’t think anyone should have one; however, it was not Protestants, it was those Catholics who wanted to become more like Protestants, who absorbed Protestant influences into their thinking in the first place in order to better “fit in” with society, instead of accepting the discomfort/ostracism that is required of faithful priests and religious in order to continue to “be salt and light” to the world. (Matthew 5:13-16)

 

[SHW]

hopefully better priests will come soon. just yesterday at father Pacwa program he read an email from a parishoner who ask father if what her priest said during Mass was right. the priest had said that the multiplying of the food among 5000 was not real. the jews had brought food inside their sleeves, so they shared the food with all others. and the real miracle was about sharing the food among them. father Pacwa was surprised by this. he said just stick with what the Bible says. there is no miracle in sharing food with others. many people do this. in fact, he said that it is very common among jews to share foods.

this is the kind of thing we hear at Mass. my priest once told us that the Jonas story was not real, it is just a fable. there was no whale at that time. this shocked me for Jesus even quoted the book of Jonas. i dont know where they get their studies from, but it is not from the CC.

We had a priest who said that Adam and Eve did not really exist.