Being a traditional Catholic, not a Pharisee

[brotherhrolf]

Lastly, what decade did the changes take place? What was the overall mood?

Decade? It changed almost overnight in a two year period from 1967 to 1969. The mid to late 60s and the early 70s were tumultuous years. What was going on in American society certainly had an impact on what was going on in Holy Mother Church. It was my generation (priests, brothers, sisters, and the laity) that was responsible for a whole lot of what has happened in the last 40 years. My parents and neighbors of the WWII generation didn’t stand a chance in stemming the tide. You reap what you sow.

It is indeed hard to hold positive dialogue, Ryan. The “wave” after the Lord’s Prayer is an affectation - a cultural accretition from the “MTV generation of the 80s”. It is simply a “if it feels good; do it” moment. The “orans” position was reserved for the priest not the laity.

Then there is the impact of evangelical protestantism involved. How many TV commercials were we bombarded with with “Shine, Jesus, Shine” with pictures of evangelical protestants with their arms uplifted in the orans position? Hey, why can’t we do that? And so we do. Without even thinking about it.

R4j? How can I explain to you all that we have lost if you adopt an “I’m OK; you’re OK” attitude? No, the essence of the Mass has not changed. It is still the eternal sacrifice of Calvary. Look at those terms. The “eternal sacrifice of Calvary”. Pre-Vatican II terms. It is hard to hold positive dialogue when you were brought up and actually believe that the Holy Eucharist is the most precious object on the face of the Earth. Credo. I believe. I would rather die than profane the Holy Eucharist or see it profaned. Simply…that is how I was raised.

We can have a conversation about scrupulosity later but I fear for my immortal soul to receive the Holy Eucharist unworthily. Can you say that about most in our parishes today? The kids who gulp the Holy Eucharist into their mouths as if it were candy?

Reverence starts with the belief that Our Lord, Jesus Christ, is present upon the altar in the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Altar. That understanding is key to understanding traditional Catholics.

 

[Disciple96]

*Hi dear friends,
I rather wish the catholic church would follow your lead and follow the times. But the catholic church is traditional and it follows only Christ.
*

Um… I hope I’m misunderstanding you, morkelkey. Are you actually lamenting the fact that we follow only Christ? If I am, in fact, misunderstanding you, my sincerest apologies. If I understood you correctly, I am flabbergasted. Would you mind expounding upon your statement and your views? Thank you.

Peace be with you.
Disciple and follower of Christ. Not a follower of the times. Or the Times either.

 

[Disciple96]

I think it can be hard to have a completely positive dialogue with someone concerning the traditional Mass because so often the question is asked “why do you go to the latin Mass?”. The answer to that question, for myself and for so many, is because the OF, as normally celebrated, is lacking. And as you say, people then become defensive. We know that we must always keep our charity and humility but how do we also express to others our love of tradition in a positive manner without compromising our convictions. Most traditionalists won’t concede that things like hand-holding during the Our Father, communion in the hand, over use of EMHCs, lack of modesty, and general irreverence are not problematic. Any suggestions on ways to express our love for tradition in a positive manner without becoming polemical or compromising our convictions?

I love the Latin Mass (though I suppose there are some who would label me as a NO Catholic, even though I too lament much that is associated with things as they are). I’m trying to learn more about the Tridentine Mass too. But I really do find much in our parishes that is truly lamentable. Truly horrifying. I am devout and I am trying to deepen my faith in and my reverence for the Eucharist. I long for reverent and beautiful liturgies. I try also to be a good example for others, especially for the catechumen I’m sponsoring in the RCIA. (Don’t get me started on the RCIA, oy ve!)

When I point out liturgical abuses, as kindly and in as friendly a manner as I can, I’m told by the deacon that those are things that “strict liturgists” worry about, but that they aren’t important. This is in the RCIA class. This is in front of people who are seeking to learn about our religion and who deserve real true answers. And this is why I have made it a point to attend class with my friend and I speak up every time I hear Church teaching getting mangled or even left out completely.

How do we express our love for the Church and also express the importance and value of liturgy celebrated properly? I really do get tired of being labelled as a fanatic (that’s what he meant, I think, when he used the words “strict liturgist”) and, subsequently, ignored.

 

[iona_scribe]

I think it can be hard to have a completely positive dialogue with someone concerning the traditional Mass because so often the question is asked “why do you go to the latin Mass?”. The answer to that question, for myself and for so many, is because the OF, as normally celebrated, is lacking. And as you say, people then become defensive. We know that we must always keep our charity and humility but how do we also express to others our love of tradition in a positive manner without compromising our convictions. Most traditionalists won’t concede that things like hand-holding during the Our Father, communion in the hand, over use of EMHCs, lack of modesty, and general irreverence are not problematic. Any suggestions on ways to express our love for tradition in a positive manner without becoming polemical or compromising our convictions?

Yeah, I get that question sometimes; asked as if I have 2 heads and without any expectation of a real answer I admit to being a little backwards from traditionalists in the sense that they tend to view the OF as a lacking form of the EF, whereas I came in from a protestant background and saw the OF as being much more like the EF than any form of worship I’d experienced before. That might affect my tone in conversation. Not that I disagree at all about the issues you’ve raised. I just try to focus on the positive qualities of the EF when I can without explicitly comparing it to negatives in the OF. Then if the conversation ripens to “why don’t we do that now?” or my favorite “why is some church art/music so weird?” then I can try to explain the implications of the fact that we’re at Jesus’ sacrifice on Calvary, or maybe discuss modernism and its effects. I haven’t tried to pursue it farther with people who aren’t interested in an honest discussion.

R4j? How can I explain to you all that we have lost if you adopt an “I’m OK; you’re OK” attitude? No, the essence of the Mass has not changed. It is still the eternal sacrifice of Calvary. Look at those terms. The “eternal sacrifice of Calvary”. Pre-Vatican II terms. It is hard to hold positive dialogue when you were brought up and actually believe that the Holy Eucharist is the most precious object on the face of the Earth. Credo. I believe. I would rather die than profane the Holy Eucharist or see it profaned. Simply…that is how I was raised.
…

Reverence starts with the belief that Our Lord, Jesus Christ, is present upon the altar in the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Altar. That understanding is key to understanding traditional Catholics.

I admire this instinct. My generation is definitely poorer for not having been raised that way.

I love the Latin Mass (though I suppose there are some who would label me as a NO Catholic, even though I too lament much that is associated with things as they are). I’m trying to learn more about the Tridentine Mass too. But I really do find much in our parishes that is truly lamentable. Truly horrifying. I am devout and I am trying to deepen my faith in and my reverence for the Eucharist. I long for reverent and beautiful liturgies. I try also to be a good example for others, especially for the catechumen I’m sponsoring in the RCIA. (Don’t get me started on the RCIA, oy ve!)

When I point out liturgical abuses, as kindly and in as friendly a manner as I can, I’m told by the deacon that those are things that “strict liturgists” worry about, but that they aren’t important. This is in the RCIA class. This is in front of people who are seeking to learn about our religion and who deserve real true answers. And this is why I have made it a point to attend class with my friend and I speak up every time I hear Church teaching getting mangled or even left out completely.

How do we express our love for the Church and also express the importance and value of liturgy celebrated properly? I really do get tired of being labelled as a fanatic (that’s what he meant, I think, when he used the words “strict liturgist”) and, subsequently, ignored.

That’s wonderful that you’re involved with your friend’s RCIA class. What a nightmare; I haven’t yet been put in that situation with any of my church’s leadership. I just do what I can in conversation with my peers.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I agree. It is hierarchical. The Blessed Virgin Mary stated to Jacinta, already in 1919, in the Fatima messages, that the clergy and religious are disobedient.

loveandmercy.org/loveandmercy/fatima.htm#messages

The “spirit of Vatican II” and its failure to continue to support certain ideas/traditions pertaining to “orthodoxy” should be laid at the disobedient clergies’ and disobedient religious’ feet since they began this “revolution.” The sheep (lay persons) merely followed. Vatican II was meant as a pastoral council only.

I remember my grandmother stating, "I am not going to wear a hat to church anymore because “Sr. “?” does not wear one and she knows all the rules since she is a nun.” (This was before Canon Law was changed, but she did not know that Canon Law even existed.)

It is true that Protestants want everyone to be like them because they do not want a pope and so don’t think anyone should have one; however, it was not Protestants, it was those Catholics who wanted to become more like Protestants, who absorbed Protestant influences into their thinking in the first place in order to better “fit in” with society, instead of accepting the discomfort/ostracism that is required of faithful priests and religious in order to continue to “be salt and light” to the world. (Matthew 5:13-16)

agreed. charge the bishops who themselves did not exercise any authority. instead acted in dissobedience and escapes under the radar. the priests are being charged because they are closer to us. but i say the bishops are the ones to be blamed for all that is going on.

today i heard father Mitch on talks about unity with the Orthodox church and one of issues in unity is the fact that the OC acuses the CC of having a deplorable Liturgy. this is a scandal for us and an embarassment.

 

[r4j]

R4j? How can I explain to you all that we have lost if you adopt an “I’m OK; you’re OK” attitude? No, the essence of the Mass has not changed. It is still the eternal sacrifice of Calvary. Look at those terms. The “eternal sacrifice of Calvary”. Pre-Vatican II terms. It is hard to hold positive dialogue when you were brought up and actually believe that the Holy Eucharist is the most precious object on the face of the Earth. Credo. I believe. I would rather die than profane the Holy Eucharist or see it profaned. Simply…that is how I was raised.

We can have a conversation about scrupulosity later but I fear for my immortal soul to receive the Holy Eucharist unworthily. Can you say that about most in our parishes today? The kids who gulp the Holy Eucharist into their mouths as if it were candy?

Reverence starts with the belief that Our Lord, Jesus Christ, is present upon the altar in the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Altar. That understanding is key to understanding traditional Catholics.

Dear brother - I am among the furthest from the ‘I’m OK, you’re OK’ thing. We’re not OK. I don’t say ‘anything goes’. I hold a hard lines too - I’m a tough guy at times - but I must remember to do all things with wisdom and love. Was not ‘love’ at the center of the 2 greatest commandments? We don’t make up the truth as we go along - even Jesus didn’t make it up as He went along - He said everything that He tells us comes from the Father. I believe in both our hearts we have tremendous love for God. I would never tolerate profanity of the Eucharist - I was surprised to see you refer to as an ‘object’ - I believe it is Chirst - His body, blood, soul and divinity. I stop by the church each morning to spend whatever time I can with Him before work. As for unworthiness, in Mass, we say ‘Lord I am not worthy to receive you, but just say the Word and I shall be healed.’ Is that not one of the most beautiful things God does for us?
As for kids and their handling of the Eucharist. Sure, I am an EM and it pains me how many of them don’t really know what they have - what it means - and how they receive it. I had to ask my 12 year old this past weekend if he said Amen after he received communion and he said ‘sometimes’. I told him that was the proper response and it means ‘I agree’ or ‘I believe’. He said ‘what if you don’t agree’, and my wife and I said simultaneously ‘then don’t receive communion.’ The reason I brought this up to him was because my mother in law doesn’t say Amen (she doesn’t say anything - she’s not a practicing Catholic but she goes to Mass with us on the weekends we have her) and I wanted to let her know.
Brother - we must tell the truth at all times. If there’s liturgical abuses, we have an obligation to speak up. If there’s a lack of reverance, let’s make sure we teach whatever young ones we know the truth about it all and then through our example and talking with others, let’s spread the word further.
The thing is brother - we have an oblgation to speak the truth at all times. I too have heard

 

[r4j]

Sorry brother - I meant to add this to my previous post - didn’t they receive communion in the hand at the Last Supper?
Brother - I just hate to see so much division over discplines - the time, the effort, the distraction, the wounding. I understand, I understand - I want reverance, I want holiniess, I want sanctity for our Lord - but I think it really starts with education - how can you convict someone who is unaware? Even God says mortal sin requires knowledge. I just can’t convict people who are practicing faith a certain way i.e. singing Gift of Finest Wheat. Abuses, wrong, never tolerate, take it to the pope if you have to. But saying Mass in English vs. Latin, receiving in the hand vs. tongue - discplines.

 

[PaulinVA]

agreed. charge the bishops who themselves did not exercise any authority. instead acted in dissobedience and escapes under the radar. the priests are being charged because they are closer to us. but i say the bishops are the ones to be blamed for all that is going on.

today i heard father Mitch on talks about unity with the Orthodox church and one of issues in unity is the fact that the OC acuses the CC of having a deplorable Liturgy. this is a scandal for us and an embarassment.

Yes, the priests are who we see the most, but they are being obedient (we hope) to the Bishops. It’s the Bishops who are the key to any revival/renewal/return of reverence and faith.

Brotherhrolf said: Reverence starts with the belief that Our Lord, Jesus Christ, is present upon the altar in the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Altar. That understanding is key to understanding traditional Catholics

This is true. And a lack of that belief explains a lot that is going on in the church right now.

 

[RyanML]

Sorry brother - I meant to add this to my previous post - didn’t they receive communion in the hand at the Last Supper?

I’m sure they did. But the apostles were priests .

It seems the practice of the early Church was to receive communion in the hand, but I think the mentality might have been a bit different then what we witness today. In the 4th century, St. Cyril of Jerusalem wrote

“Approaching, therefore, come not with thy wrists extended, or thy fingers open; but make thy left hand as if a throne for thy right, which is on the eve of receiving the King. And having hallowed thy palm, receive the body of Christ, saying after it, ‘Amen.’ Then after thou hast with carefulness hallowed thine eyes by the touch of the holy body, partake thereof; giving heed lest thou lose any of it; for what thou losest is a loss to thee as it were from one of thine own members. For tell me, if anyone gave thee gold dust, wouldst thou not with all precaution keep it fast, being on thy guard against losing any of it, and suffering loss?” (Catechetical Lectures 23:22).

If Catholics today had such reverence and vigilence in receiving in the hand, then there wouldn’t be a problem. Sadly, this is not the case. We live in a world were what is sacred is treated less and less so. Often times we bring the liturgy down to the level of the secular and mundane that we live with and experience everyday rather than letting the beauty and solemnity of the liturgy raise our minds to the things of Heaven.

 

[brotherhrolf]

R4j: This is my third response to you. I’ve deleted the other two and started over each time. You made a point about education and rightly so.

I remember my education in the second grade as we spent almost a year being prepared for our First Confession and First Communion in 1958. Back then, even though I had a lay teacher, the nuns came in and supplemented her instruction. Fr. came in (associate pastor - biretta, cassock and all) and further taught us. Instruction continued at home with my mother (my father was Protestant) and my mother’s extended family. We knew - KNEW the solemnity of the occassion and just Whom we were receiving.

It was a BIG deal to make one’s First Communion - a big deal. The church was packed with grandparents, aunts and uncles. I am by training an anthropologist. You want to talk about your classic “rite of passage”?

So sacred was the Host that we were instructed that if the Host got trapped on the roof of our mouths, we were to make more saliva and to dislodge the Host with our tongues. Under no circumstances were we to dislodge the Host with our fingers.

We had Communion rails. The Communion rails had white linen cloths which the altar boys flipped over. One knelt at the Communion rail and placed one’s hands under the Communion cloth. The altar boy placed the paten under your chin.

In all my years as an altar boy, I can never recall a dropped Host. In all my years as a cathedral chorister, I can recall far too many instances. I can also recall far too many instances of our chief usher (who happened to be a sherrif’s deputy) having to grab people trying to walk out with the Host.

I cannot reduce all of that to a mere discipline. As for Latin/English? I’ve already made my views well known about that. Sing my tongue the Savior’s glory is simply not Pange Lingua Gloriosi. It may be chant. It may be in English. But it is just like taking a shower with a raincoat on. For a Roman Catholic who grew up with a Latin Mass; served as an altar boy; sang in choirs; and is of Irish ancestry…do you have any idea of how humiliating it was to be handed a 1940 Episcopalian hymnal and be told you can’t sing Latin?

I don’t see discipline as a trivial thing.

 

[r4j]

Brother - you had a much, much better upbringing in the faith than me. I do remember the kneelers for communion but we had no white cloths. I do remember the May Procession and First Communion was a family affair. But being in 2nd grade, I had no clue what was really happening - it’s just something that we did because that’s what we did. Even confirmation, it’s only with my reconversion 2 years ago and my daughter preparing for it this past May that I have any appreciation what it really means.
I never said discipline was trivial. My point is that discipline can change, doctrine can’t. If the church decides in its infinite wisdom that doing xxx will enhance the kingdom on earth, then it has my support. That doesn’t mean I would sit idly by if the said the Holy Trinity is false. But the Magisterium of the church has the guaranty of the Holy Spirit when it teaches definitively in faith and morals.
I’m sorry you feel things were ripped out of you. It must really hurt. I have not felt that pain. I love the Catholic Church and ‘you don’t want to say anything bad about her in front of me’ as a priest put it one time.
Ryan - on the apostles being priests - good insight - do you think they were made priests at the last supper or when they were first called by Christ - or at some other point?

 

[SHW]

I’m sure they did. But the apostles were priests

Were they actually bishops already at the Last Supper as some people assert, or did they instead have to wait to become bishops, until after Jesus arose from the dead and “breathed” on them and perhaps even laid hands on them? (John 20) They were not given power to forgive sins (through Jesus) until after the Resurrection.

We do know that they did not fully understand their mission until after the resurrection, because that is when Jesus instructed them (during the 40 day interval between His resurrection and His ascension), and then they received still more revelation at Pentecost after Jesus ascended into heaven. This is why I question whether they were already bishops at the Last Supper.

It seems the practice of the early Church was to receive communion in the hand, but I think the mentality might have been a bit different then what we witness today. In the 4th century, St. Cyril of Jerusalem wrote…

If Catholics today had such reverence and vigilence in receiving in the hand, then there wouldn’t be a problem. Sadly, this is not the case. We live in a world were what is sacred is treated less and less so. Often times we bring the liturgy down to the level of the secular and mundane that we live with and experience everyday rather than letting the beauty and solemnity of the liturgy raise our minds to the things of Heaven.

I agree. Many people today have no true sense of “sacred.”

 

[dgrave]

This is the Gospel for July 17th in the Ordinary Form:

In the priest’s homily this morning, I was reminded that the Pharisees, though well intentioned, believed that the best way to be a good Jew was to follow the Law, and that perfectly. They concerned themselves so much with all the details of the Law that they forgot God. Jesus tells us that the highest law is first the love of God and then loving our neighbor as ourselves and that all other laws are at the service of this, the greatest of laws.

We traditional Catholics can sometimes get bogged down in defending and arguing traditional laws, customs, and rubrics to the point of frustration or exhaustion and almost forget about our Lord and charity towards our neighbor. How can we better witness the beauty and truth of Catholic tradition while always remembering that these things, in and of themselves, are of little importance if they do not serve the highest law of loving God and neighbor?

 

[dgrave]

I think your comments are spot on, re focusing of loving God and loving neighbour, knowing that those 2 commandments are at the heart of the gospel message.

Pharisees focused on the external things, to “win” heaven. Catholics are urged to stop trying to climb to heaven, to stop trying to earn points to get to heaven. We are saved as Christians by our FAITH in Jesus. Following the sacraments, obeying man-made laws will not get us to heaven any faster. Jesus is our always to be our focus, and reading and obeying scripture and showing love to our neighbour are of the utmost importance.

Catholics, to be a light to the world, need to start looking more saved, looking more joyous rather than looking fearful, ie like they need to DO things to remain “in grace”. Read St Paul’s letters and you may learn that faith is what saves us, and not works. Nobody is worthy of being saved; our salvation is a free gift from the Lord. That should make every Catholic JOYFUL! If others are to see God’s glory, we need to start appearing as if we KNOW we are already saved because God’s mercy and grace. It is a big burden lifted off us when we realise this, knowing that Jesus has already paid our debt.

God Bless,

 

[SHW]

I think your comments are spot on, re focusing of loving God and loving neighbour, knowing that those 2 commandments are at the heart of the gospel message.

Pharisees focused on the external things, to “win” heaven. Catholics are urged to stop trying to climb to heaven, to stop trying to earn points to get to heaven. We are saved as Christians by our FAITH in Jesus. Following the sacraments, obeying man-made laws will not get us to heaven any faster. Jesus is our always to be our focus, and reading and obeying scripture and showing love to our neighbour are of the utmost importance.

Catholics, to be a light to the world, need to start looking more saved, looking more joyous rather than looking fearful, ie like they need to DO things to remain “in grace”. Read St Paul’s letters and you may learn that faith is what saves us, and not works. Nobody is worthy of being saved; our salvation is a free gift from the Lord. That should make every Catholic JOYFUL! If others are to see God’s glory, we need to start appearing as if we KNOW we are already saved because God’s mercy and grace. It is a big burden lifted off us when we realise this, knowing that Jesus has already paid our debt.

God Bless,

It is true that Jesus redeemed us from Adam’s sin (Romans 5) and that no works of our own could possibly accomplish this redemption for us and reconcile us to God because** only Jesus is both God and Man so only He can reconcile us to God as a Mediator between us**. We receive the merits of Jesus’ sacrifice at our Baptisms when Jesus saves us and sanctifies us when He/Holy Spirit washes away this Original Sin and also our own personal sins at the time of our Baptisms. It is also true that He will forgive our sins after Baptism when we confess and repent.

However, Catholics should/must conduct themselves in fear and trembling while they are on earth in order to inherit eternal life when they die.

1 Peter 1:16-18
because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”
17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers,

1 Peter 4:18
Now “ If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

1 Corinthians 9:27
But** I discipline my body and bring it into subjection**, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

Jesus saves us, but we must then cooperate with His graces in order to be approved to inherit eternal life. We must work (serve).

Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

He bestows the crown/gift of eternal life only upon those who love Him. We show that we love Him by obeying His commandments.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Are we saved if we do not obey His commandments? No.

1 John 2:4
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

What happens to these liars (those who claim to be Christians, but who do not also obey His commandments?)

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

All people who do not obey God’s commandments are not saved.

Hebrews 5:9
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We must cooperate with God’s graces and obey His commandments and work righteousness in order to continue to saved, and then we will be approved to inherit eternal life after we die.

Romans 11:22
Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

God shows no partiality. He saves those who fear (worship and obey) Him and work righteousness (do good works/produce good fruits).

Acts 10:34-35
Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

 

[r4j]

The phrase ‘fear and trembling’ is another one that I think we have to be careful in using. I think it can be misintepreted. Jesus, in the healing of Jarius’s daughter says ‘fear is useless, what is needed is trust (according one sermon I heard)’. I think there may be different kinds of fear - good fear, bad fear. I see my daughter gripped with fear about certain things and its not healthy. She has a fear that God will do something to her or take something from her if she doesn’t say all the names on her intention list individually - even though that list has grown to such a length. She fears that God will help the person. I’ve been trying to convince her that she can ask God to ‘take care of all the names on her intention list.’ I fear God - I fear offended Him and I don’t want to, I know I’m a speck, a creature and He is the Creator. I know I must live my life in accord with His Word - completely, fully and perfectly and I strive for that every day. I do believe that our actions have consequences and our lives at times seem to reflect the consequences of our behaviors.
But I just think that the ‘fear and trembling’ concept is sometimes results in driving people away or into despair and it doesn’t have the desired effect.

 

[ac_claire]

Catholics, to be a light to the world, need to start looking more saved, looking more joyous rather than looking fearful, ie like they need to DO things to remain “in grace”. Read St Paul’s letters and you may learn that faith is what saves us, and not works. Nobody is worthy of being saved; our salvation is a free gift from the Lord. That should make every Catholic JOYFUL! If others are to see God’s glory, we need to start appearing as if we KNOW we are already saved because God’s mercy and grace. It is a big burden lifted off us when we realise this, knowing that Jesus has already paid our debt.

I understand your point, and IMO it’s a valid one. But the truth is we are actually saved by faith and works (love and obedience as actions of the will and fruits of our Faith)…they are two sides of the same coin.

I worry though that you may be confusing salvation and redemption, which is a fundamental error of Protestantism. *“It is a big burden lifted off us when we realise this, knowing that Jesus has already paid our debt…” * Jesus did pay for our sins on the cross; this is our redemption, a free gift. To achieve salvation however, we must accept the free gift and cooperate with God’s grace by believing, trusting and obeying Him of our own free will.

So I agree that we should be ever joyous about our redemption and ever hopeful for our salvation. We do NOT in fact “know” that we are already saved…We know that we are redeemed and that we can be saved through the grace of God. That’s our hope as Christians.

 

[Leonius]

Catholics, to be a light to the world, need to start looking more saved, looking more joyous rather than looking fearful, ie like they need to DO things to remain “in grace”. Read St Paul’s letters and you may learn that faith is what saves us, and not works. Nobody is worthy of being saved; our salvation is a free gift from the Lord. That should make every Catholic JOYFUL! If others are to see God’s glory, we need to start appearing as if we KNOW we are already saved because God’s mercy and grace. It is a big burden lifted off us when we realise this, knowing that Jesus has already paid our debt.

God Bless,

I disagree what we need to do is start living virtuously, we need to start following Gods commandments and openly opposing evil in all its manifestations whether its abortion or the man who cheats on his wife or the friend who lies to another and we condone the sin through our silence.

What you need to do is stop listening to protestants so much and stop focusing on appearances, living a lie is not Christian, faking it is not Christian, we are not saved and pretending otherwise is deceit.

"faith is what saves us, and not works

That is outright heresy, try been saved without following the commandments and see where you end up.

If you are really Catholic I suggest you try learning the faith you claim to profess as a starting point.

 

[RyanML]

I think your comments are spot on, re focusing of loving God and loving neighbour, knowing that those 2 commandments are at the heart of the gospel message.

Pharisees focused on the external things, to “win” heaven. Catholics are urged to stop trying to climb to heaven, to stop trying to earn points to get to heaven. We are saved as Christians by our FAITH in Jesus. Following the sacraments, obeying man-made laws will not get us to heaven any faster. Jesus is our always to be our focus, and reading and obeying scripture and showing love to our neighbour are of the utmost importance.

Catholics, to be a light to the world, need to start looking more saved, looking more joyous rather than looking fearful, ie like they need to DO things to remain “in grace”. Read St Paul’s letters and you may learn that faith is what saves us, and not works. Nobody is worthy of being saved; our salvation is a free gift from the Lord. That should make every Catholic JOYFUL! If others are to see God’s glory, we need to start appearing as if we KNOW we are already saved because God’s mercy and grace. It is a big burden lifted off us when we realise this, knowing that Jesus has already paid our debt.

God Bless,

You make some valid points, but remember that our Lord Jesus Christ said, that " Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matt. 7:21)

“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.” (Matt. 16:27)

St. Paul was pointing out that we are not saved by our own merits. It is Christ’s grace and our faith in Him that saves us. But, that faith must be a working faith or it has no power to save (James 2:24). So, if we as Catholics are taking part in Holy Mass and practicing traditional devotions and observing the laws and precepts of the Church, all without seeking intimacy with Christ as our end and growing in charity, then it’s all for nothing. As St. Teresa of Avila said “all is a grace” but we must be faithful and respond generously to that grace in order to truly “work out our salvation in fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12)

 

[RyanML]

The phrase ‘fear and trembling’ is another one that I think we have to be careful in using. I think it can be misintepreted. Jesus, in the healing of Jarius’s daughter says ‘fear is useless, what is needed is trust (according one sermon I heard)’. I think there may be different kinds of fear - good fear, bad fear. I see my daughter gripped with fear about certain things and its not healthy. She has a fear that God will do something to her or take something from her if she doesn’t say all the names on her intention list individually - even though that list has grown to such a length. She fears that God will help the person. I’ve been trying to convince her that she can ask God to ‘take care of all the names on her intention list.’ I fear God - I fear offended Him and I don’t want to, I know I’m a speck, a creature and He is the Creator. I know I must live my life in accord with His Word - completely, fully and perfectly and I strive for that every day. I do believe that our actions have consequences and our lives at times seem to reflect the consequences of our behaviors.
But I just think that the ‘fear and trembling’ concept is sometimes results in driving people away or into despair and it doesn’t have the desired effect.

There is the useless fear that our Lord spoke of and then there is a good fear that is actually a gift of the Spirit; the fear of the Lord.

“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.” - Psalm 110:10