Being against same-sex marriage, assumed to be hateful

[atheistgirl]

I am sorry, the actual name of the group is “Dignity USA”.

Thank you.

I’ll read more closely later when I have time but a quick read of their website I couldn’t see any demand for gay marriage with the Catholic Church.

I may have missed it as I’ve only quickly looked.

Sarah x

 

[josh987654321]

I am not sure how to handle a friend of mine who points out anytime I support traditional values or that Christians are being persecuted for their faith in society, he argues that we are hateful because we don’t support same-sex marriage. He argues because of this, gays are hated and persecuted “en masse” and we need to let them have the right to get married. He says when we don’t treat people equally, it gives people the perceived right to bully people (he is always referring to gays when he is arguing these points).

I argue we as Christians have the religious freedom to oppose same-sex marriage and we are, generally, not hateful towards people who are gay. But he keeps assuming we’re homophobic, hateful, persecutors of homosexuals, and we as Christians would be better off just to give up our opposition to same-sex marriage.

How can I counter this? I am a little sick of being assumed to be hateful because I believe in traditional values. Oh, and this person tells me he is a Christian but he doesn’t respect my faith that tells me I cannot, in good conscience, support same-sex marriage.

Help please, where am I going wrong?!?

Hi skigirl1689

The first thing I would ask your friend is, what is marriage?

Same sex marriage advocates always seem to refer to it as ‘equal marriage’ and that to be against same sex civil marriage is discrimination (or whatever term they use). However if we are discriminating or against ‘marriage equality’ by saying that marriage is between a man and a woman. If we don’t have the right to ‘force’ … as they say, our definition of marriage being between a man and a woman onto them, than what right do they have to force their definition of marriage being between two people onto those who think it should be between more than two people? and thus the slippery slope begins.

So I believe that either they advocate the legalisation of every union that someone at a whim or fancy wishes to call a marriage or they themselves are also discriminating and are against ‘marriage equality’ also. Thus opening the door to many others and once marriage can mean anything, than pretty soon it means nothing.

I however believe marriage doesn’t mean anything, however I do believe people want marriage to mean anything when the truth doesn’t suit them.

The first thing that comes to mind with the existence of God, is that God must have created us male and female (as for evolution, I don’t believe we evolved from nothing) and as Genesis states.

I believe Jesus perfectly affirmed what a marriage was in these two passages -
Gospels:

**Matthew 19:4-6

4 Jesus answered, “Don’t you know that in the beginning the Creator made a man and a woman? 5 That’s why a man leaves his father and mother and gets married. He becomes like one person with his wife. 6 Then they are no longer two people, but one. And no one should separate a couple that God has joined together.”

Mark 10:6-9

6 But in the beginning God made a man and a woman. 7 That’s why a man leaves his father and mother and gets married. 8 He becomes like one person with his wife. Then they are no longer two people, but one. 9 And no one should separate a couple that God has joined together.” **

To me this makes absolute and perfect sense and I don’t know how marriage could be viewed any other way.

So thus I believe that the sexual acts of homosexuality are sinful along with the CC because it means to use the bodies organs in a manner in which they were not designed to be used for.

Some people say, that while they could believe that the sexual acts of homosexuality are immoral (sinful), they could still support/advocate the legalisation of civil same sex marriage as a kind of live and let live kind of thing, but I believe there are a few problems with that.

First off, I believe that if we know it to be sinful, than we wouldn’t be loving our homosexual brothers and sisters by advocating sin for them.

Secondly, Because homosexuality is a consensual act, this is why it is not criminalised and I believe no one is arging for homosexuality to be made illegal.

Thridly, Same sex marriage does not legalise a homosexual union, I believe It publicly recognises a homosexual union as equivalent and equal to a heterosexual one, which I believe would mean to ignore the differences between a man and a woman, their sexual compatibility and complementarity with one another, the human anatomy.

Please continue to next post -

 

[josh987654321]

Continued from above post -

I would also like to just add some concluding notes to this reply.

When it comes to viewing the sexual acts of homosexuality -

Leviticus say’s this -
Law of Moses:

**Leviticus 18:22
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13
13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. **

(I don’t view it like this, just using Leviticus to show similarities).

This is what Leviticus say’s about Adultery -
Law of Moses:

**Leviticus 18:16
16 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your brother’s wife; that would dishonor your brother.

Leviticus 20:10
10 “‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.**

Jesus than say’s this in the New Testament -
"Gospel of Matthew:

**Matthew 5:17-20

The Law of Moses

17 Don’t suppose that I came to do away with the Law and the Prophets.[a] I did not come to do away with them, but to give them their full meaning. 18 Heaven and earth may disappear. But I promise you that not even a period or comma will ever disappear from the Law. Everything written in it must happen.

19 If you reject even the least important command in the Law and teach others to do the same, you will be the least important person in the kingdom of heaven. But if you obey and teach others its commands, you will have an important place in the kingdom. 20 You must obey God’s commands better than the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law obey them. If you don’t, I promise you that you will never get into the kingdom of heaven. **

I believe Jesus then fulfills the Old Testament here -
Gospel of John:

**John 8:3-11

A Woman Caught in Sin

3 The Pharisees and the teachers of the Law of Moses brought in a woman who had been caught in bed with a man who wasn’t her husband. They made her stand in the middle of the crowd. 4 Then they said, “Teacher, this woman was caught sleeping with a man who isn’t her husband. 5 The Law of Moses teaches that a woman like this should be stoned to death! What do you say?”

6 They asked Jesus this question, because they wanted to test him and bring some charge against him. But Jesus simply bent over and started writing on the ground with his finger.

7 They kept on asking Jesus about the woman. Finally, he stood up and said, “If any of you have never sinned, then go ahead and throw the first stone at her!” 8 Once again he bent over and began writing on the ground. 9 The people left one by one, beginning with the oldest. Finally, Jesus and the woman were there alone.

10 Jesus stood up and asked her, “Where is everyone? Isn’t there anyone left to accuse you?”

11 “No sir,” the woman answered.

Then Jesus told her, “I am not going to accuse you either. You may go now, but don’t sin anymore.” **

So thus I believe that the sexual acts of homosexuality should be seen likewise.

I also believe Homosexuals are no different to any one of us, I believe not one person doesn’t have an immoral desire and that our desires are not who we are, because we make that choice.

I also believe that the morality of the act doesn’t change simply because of our desire for it, because I think that would be like wreaklessly giving into our every desire, throwing our hands up in the air and saying “If God didn’t want me to do this, than he wouldn’t have given me the desire to do it.”

Telling us to obey instinct is like telling us to obey ‘people.’ People say different things: so do instincts. Our instincts are at war… Each instinct, if you listen to it, will claim to be gratified at the expense of the rest. C.S. Lewis

Why do you have the freedom to restrict the freedom of other people?

Absolute freedom mocks at justice. Absolute justice denies freedom. Albert Camus

Like I mentioned ealier, same sex marriage doesn’t legalise a homosexual union, nor is anyone trying to criminalize it.

I hope I have helped you Skigirl1689

I apologise for the length of this reply, I hope it helps, feel free to reply/refute any of it.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Starrsmother]

It doesn’t matter if you agree with me or not it’s logic. Your analogy is flawed.

I’m not saying you can’t believe what you want to believe or feel the way you feel. Just pointing out the flaws in the syllogism.

I don’t see my analogy as flawed at all. Infact I’ll turn your own logic back at you. I’m not saying what you can believe or not believe either and I’m not saying what gays can or cannot believe.–Just don’t expect to shove it down someone else’s throat–in particular the Catholic church. The church believes in and “feels” things too–and has the same right to do so as you or I for sure!

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

I don’t see my analogy as flawed at all. Infact I’ll turn your own logic back at you. I’m not saying what you can believe or not believe either and I’m not saying what gays can or cannot believe.–Just don’t expect to shove it down someone else’s throat–in particular the Catholic church. The church believes in and “feels” things too–and has the same right to do so as you or I for sure!

I’m not commenting on gay marriage, I’m commenting on how you are talking about gay marriage. You are trying to compare apples to oranges.

Theft has a victim and perpetrator. One person doesn’t have a choice if they are involved in a theft. The victim. In gay marriage both are willing participants. Gay marriage isn’t forced on one party. So to equate theft and gay marriage makes it look like you don’t understand that both parties are willing participants. It weakens your argument. You should compare apples to apples.

If you are looking for an analogous sin, divorce is closer. Divorce is a sin in the eyes of the Church. The State allows divorce. The Church doesn’t perform divorces nor should they be forced to.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I am not sure how to handle a friend of mine who points out anytime I support traditional values or that Christians are being persecuted for their faith in society, he argues that we are hateful because we don’t support same-sex marriage. He argues because of this, gays are hated and persecuted “en masse” and we need to let them have the right to get married. He says when we don’t treat people equally, it gives people the perceived right to bully people (he is always referring to gays when he is arguing these points).

I argue we as Christians have the religious freedom to oppose same-sex marriage and we are, generally, not hateful towards people who are gay. But he keeps assuming we’re homophobic, hateful, persecutors of homosexuals, and we as Christians would be better off just to give up our opposition to same-sex marriage.

How can I counter this? I am a little sick of being assumed to be hateful because I believe in traditional values. Oh, and this person tells me he is a Christian but he doesn’t respect my faith that tells me I cannot, in good conscience, support same-sex marriage.

Help please, where am I going wrong?!?

I cannot think of a group of people that is less discriminated against than homosexuals. Entire societies and governments are bowing to the power of such a small minority. It is actually more like the small powerful minority is imposing their values on the rest of us. I would point out that heterophobia is the problem.

 

[atheistgirl]

I am sorry, the actual name of the group is “Dignity USA”.

OK.

I’ve read their website now, and nowhere could I see them calling for the Catholic Church to perform same sex marriages within the Church presided by a Priest performing a Sacramental marriage.

So my point still stands.

There is no group demanding Catholic Priests perform a Sacramental Catholic Marriage for same sex couples.

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

I cannot think of a group of people that is less discriminated against than homosexuals.

How many other groups can you name have the threat of a prison sentence of up to 14 years or a death sentence hanging over their heads just because of who they are

In November 2012, the speaker of the Parliament of Uganda promised to enact a revised anti-homosexuality bill, providing for harsher penalties against suspected LGBT people and anyone who fails to report them to authorities, including long-term imprisonment and the death penalty for what the law terms “repeat offenders”.

Uganda is a majority Christian country with the largest single Christian group being Roman Catholic.

Roman Catholic 41.9%, Protestant 42% (Anglican 35.9%, Pentecostal 4.6%, Seventh-Day Adventist 1.5%), Muslim 12.1%, other 3.1%, none 0.9% (2002 census)

Sarah x

 

[marymary1975]

I cannot think of a group of people that is less discriminated against than homosexuals. Entire societies and governments are bowing to the power of such a small minority. It is actually more like the small powerful minority is imposing their values on the rest of us. I would point out that heterophobia is the problem.

I agree with you 100%

 

[Randy_Carson]

I am not sure how to handle a friend of mine who points out anytime I support traditional values or that Christians are being persecuted for their faith in society, he argues that we are hateful because we don’t support same-sex marriage. He argues because of this, gays are hated and persecuted “en masse” and we need to let them have the right to get married. He says when we don’t treat people equally, it gives people the perceived right to bully people (he is always referring to gays when he is arguing these points).

I argue we as Christians have the religious freedom to oppose same-sex marriage and we are, generally, not hateful towards people who are gay. But he keeps assuming we’re homophobic, hateful, persecutors of homosexuals, and we as Christians would be better off just to give up our opposition to same-sex marriage.

How can I counter this? I am a little sick of being assumed to be hateful because I believe in traditional values. Oh, and this person tells me he is a Christian but he doesn’t respect my faith that tells me I cannot, in good conscience, support same-sex marriage.

Help please, where am I going wrong?!?

jimmyakin.com/2012/07/are-you-a-hater-or-a-bigot-or-are-you-just-intolerant.html

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

How many other groups can you name have the threat of a prison sentence of up to 14 years or a death sentence hanging over their heads just because of who they are

Sarah x

LOL you are kidding right?

Um Christians.

 

[marymary1975]

How many other groups can you name have the threat of a prison sentence of up to 14 years or a death sentence hanging over their heads just because of who they are

Uganda is a majority Christian country with the largest single Christian group being Roman Catholic.

Sarah x

Because Uganda is being forced by the IDB and the IFIS and the UN to pass laws legalizing homosexual marriage against the will of the majority of its population. That law is just as response to international pressure to force homosexuality into people, so then, given that this is just a response, who is persecuting who?

 

[marymary1975]

OK.

I’ve read their website now, and nowhere could I see them calling for the Catholic Church

There is no group demanding Catholic Priests perform a Sacramental Catholic Marriage for same sex couples.

Sarah x

Of course no, do you think gay activist are dumb to do.something so obvious? They would never do that because they know that wouldn’t work. Instead is much more effective brainwashing the population, make them to lose their concept of marriage, normalize sinful acts, lie and put everybody against the church, start playing with words “equality” to get people on your side and call anyone who disagrees with you a bigot and soon you will.crush sacramenal marriage without even having to say a word about it.

 

[marymary1975]

You do see with the exception of the gun example you are talking about actions that are against another’s will.

Rape, Slavery, and theft all involve an unwilling participant. Gun ownership is a personal choice.

Gay marriage is two willing participants. If homosexuals were shanghai methods to find a spouse your example would be valid but since they are not, your example isn’t really a valid one.

My example involves actions that are wrong. The fact that someone.else’s will is involved is irrelevant. We don’t qualify actions wrong just because someone’s will is involved. If that were true then we have to legalize suicide, hacking of bank accounts, perjury, arson and many other things. Again of you don’t like drugs don’t do it let all drug addicts get all the drugs they want, you don’t like suicide don’t kill yourself let others mutilate and kill themselves, if you don’t like bribery don’t bribe but let others bribe…after as 'll both parties in bribery are quite happy and consenting the bribery…so does that mean bribery should be allowed? If you don’t like animal cruelty don’t do it but let others do it, you don’t think hacking is right then do not do it but let hackers be happy hacking into.other s banks, you don’t agree with eating disorders then eat well and leave all anorexics starve in peace.

 

[marymary1975]

I’m not commenting on gay marriage, I’m commenting on how you are talking about gay marriage. You are trying to compare apples to oranges.

Theft has a victim and perpetrator. One person doesn’t have a choice if they are involved in a theft. The victim. In gay marriage both are willing participants. Gay marriage isn’t forced on one party. So to equate theft and gay marriage makes it look like you don’t understand that both parties are willing participants. It weakens your argument. You should compare apples to apples.

If you are looking for an analogous sin, divorce is closer. Divorce is a sin in the eyes of the Church. The State allows divorce. The Church doesn’t perform divorces nor should they be forced to.

Ok then again per your analogy things can be categorized as wrong only, and only if, it involves a second person who doesn’t have a choice. Then you should be up for legalizing drugs, drug traffic, prostitution, perjury, gambling, people should be allowed to not wear car seats, disobeying governmental orders, gerrymandering,econonomical crimes, obstruction of justice, bribery, etc, etc, etc.

Do you see how your logic is flawed.

 

[atheistgirl]

LOL you are kidding right?

Um Christians.

What country sentences Christians to death or decades in prison, sanctioned by the government, if it is discovered they are Christians?

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

Because Uganda is being forced by the IDB and the IFIS and the UN to pass laws legalizing homosexual marriage against the will of the majority of its population.

Links to official documents please supporting this.

That law is just as response to international pressure to force homosexuality into people, so then, given that this is just a response, who is persecuting who?

Oh, OK.

The Democratic, Christian response to the issue of rights for homosexuals, which, incidentally includes access to basic health care which many are currently denied, is to pass a law authorizing decades in prison and the death penalty

And you’re OK with that?



Sarah x

 

[Elizium23]

Ah, but homosexual “marriage” has unwilling victims as well. These are the children who are adopted or surrogated or IVFed into malformed “families” and are forced to grow up without a mother or without a father. So as you can see, while homosexualists previously wanted to be left alone to promiscuous lifestyles of “consenting adults” they are now not content merely to have each other, but they must destroy the family unit as well.

 

[marymary1975]

What country sentences Christians to death or decades in prison, sanctioned by the government, if it is discovered they are Christians?

Sarah x

China and many African and Muslim countries currently, and until not that long ago Cuba, the entire Soviet union, communist Germany, Romania, Poland and most of the countries in Eastern Europe and just a few years you had the massacre of Kibeho…and that is only.after 150 if I go way back it would be an endless list

 

[marymary1975]

Links to official documents please supporting this.

Oh, OK.

The Democratic, Christian response to the issue of rights for homosexuals, which, incidentally includes access to basic health care which many are currently denied, is to pass a law authorizing decades in prison and the death penalty

And you’re OK with that?



Sarah x

I cannot post links because I am on a phone, but just research conditioning financial assistance to third world countries, and you will find that the way it works is that the IMF conditions lending to the policies they are promoting. Countries have to agree with their programs and implant them in order to get assistance. This may be any kind of programs, even beneficial programs but through this the imf has the power to impose policies and laws in other countries. Anyone who has lived in a third world country can tell you how everyday laws that make no sense are passed just to.comply with these conditions.

Second, I am wondering if you have ever been to a third world.country because you are talking like if it is the USA. Medical services? 80% of the population of Uganda doesn’t have access to medical care, most of its children are starving, most of its people live in extreme.poverty…do you think.Anyone in Uganda cares about a group of 100 people getting married when most if its children are starving? Put things in perspective. I personally do not agree with that law but you need to place things in perspective of where you are and that people.over there have very radical and different beliefs to the ones Americans have.