Being both Protestant and Catholic?

[Welshrabbit]

Apologies for phrasing that poorly…I should have said “practicing the faith incorrectly” as opposed to saying “got it wrong.”

Peace and good.

 

[JonNC]

Apologies for phrasing that poorly…I should have said “practicing the faith incorrectly” as opposed to saying “got it wrong.”

Peace and good.

Such as.
My main disagreement with the Catholic Church is ecclesiology, specifically, universal jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome. That’s a later development
Depending on who you talk to, I think you’ll find that many of the disagreements coming from communions that maintain the sacraments are really from after the Great Schism.
I don’t want to belabor the point, but when I see statements like that, it just strikes me as not particularly accurate.

 

[HeDa]

There are about 121 000 registered Catholics in Sweden which makes it less than 2% of the population. 80% are immigrants and of the those who are of Swedish origin, 80% are converts.

 

[Welshrabbit]

So you maintain that your clergy’s ordinations are valid and your sacraments are valid?

Did Christ intend for there to be one church or many churches?

You may be “practicing” correctly, but you obviously disagree with the way things were handled for 1000 or 1500 years depending on which schism we’re talking about.

 

[Welshrabbit]

Well good for you for going against the grain!

 

[otjm]

You might offer your friend a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If he will receive it, then let him read it and make his choice. Unless he is not mobile at all, he can see a priest, so that is a polite way to blow you off. It can be arranged if he is not bed ridden; and if he is, it also can be arranged.

If he will not receive the CCC, then it is time to put him on your prayer list and move on. He is a big boy now; he will either choose to move forward, or choose not to. You have done your best so far; anything further should hinge on whether or not he will receive a copy. Further discussions are not likely to be productive.

 

[JonNC]

So you maintain that your clergy’s ordinations are valid and your sacraments are valid?

Of course. Why would I receive a Sacrament I knew to be invalid?

Did Christ intend for there to be one church or many churches?

“I believe in one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church.”
What I don’t believe is that human division negates that truth.

You may be “practicing” correctly, but you obviously disagree with the way things were handled for 1000 or 1500 years depending on which schism we’re talking about.

Apparently there are those of us who believe that, in some ways, those in communion with the Bishop of Rome handles things differently than was handed down, such as the claim of universal jurisdiction.
It doesn’t change the basic point I made, that to claim the Church was in error until Luther is hyperbolic and, in many was, inaccurate.

 

[Welshrabbit]

Like I said in my original post, it could have been phrased better…if I cared to.

This is a Catholic forum and I’m typing from my phone. My goal was to share my story with fellow Catholics, not to discuss what is accurate or inaccurate with a non-Catholic.

Bottom line: the Catholic Church is the original. The fact that it is the original is enough for me.

 

[JonNC]

You posted in the non-Catholic Religions section. Expect a response from non-Catholics.
The irony of your responses here was I was defending the history of the Catholic Church as maintaining the teaching of the Christian faith from a non-Catholic perspective. Whether or not you agree, your analysis was inaccurate.

 

[Welshrabbit]

Great, it was inaccurate. Feel better?

I’m posting as an ex protestant, relaying what I was taught as a child about the Catholic Church. My post was not meant to be super thorough, only to provide advice to a fellow Catholic on a potential argument he could use when discussing the faith with his friend.

 

[JonNC]

Great, it was inaccurate. Feel better Mr. random non-Catholic trolling Catholics on a Catholic forum?

Trolling? I’ve been posting here for nearly 12 years. Hardly a troll.

I’m posting as an ex protestant, relaying what I was taught as a child about the Catholic Church. My post was not meant to be super thorough, only to provide advice to a fellow Catholic on a potential argument he could use when discussing the faith with his friend.

If the OP’s friend is learned in any way, he would take your comment as polemic.
There have been far better suggestions: give him a copy of the CCC, encourage him to speak to a priest, let him decide from there.
It seems it might be a better tactic (than your comment) to encourage him to look at faith traditions that share significant doctrinal concurrence with the Catholic Church, compared to evangelical, non-denominational groups. Convince him on the sacraments, shared by Lutherans and Anglicans, as means of grace. Introduce him to liturgical worship.

Things like that.

 

[Welshrabbit]

Wonderful! He can do that too. It doesn’t mean can’t point out the fact that Christ establish a church, and for 1500 years just about all Christians belonged to it.

Also, the amount of time you’ve spent on a website Is not what makes you a troll or not. Badgering people about trivial nuances that may or may not be present in their posts is a good indication there’s a problem.

Now in all seriousness…leave me alone.

 

[JonNC]

Wonderful! He can do that too. It doesn’t mean can’t point out the fact that Christ establish a church, and for 1500 years just about all Christians belonged to it.

Also, the amount of time you’ve spent on a website Is not what makes you a troll or not. Badgering people about trivial nuances that may or may not be present in their posts is a good indication that you are in fact, a troll.

Now in all seriousness…leave me alone.

Personal attacks is a greater measure of a troll.
Use the ignore function if you wish to not read my posts.

 

[Bushum]

Of course. Why would I receive a Sacrament I knew to be invalid?

Full disclosure I was raised non-denominational and know almost nothing about Lutheranism. My question is what is the thought process or justification used to explain how a schismatic group can have valid apostolic succession when they became schismatics 500 years ago? To me that seems even weaker than the sedevacantist position as their’s say there are zero properly ordained bishops living. They are only going back half a century and not five centuries like Protestants have to.

 

[Bushum]

Also most Protestants are not Lutheran or High Anglican. Many do in fact believe that Catholics got it all wrong. Most Protestant sects are completely watered down to almost nothing except Sola Scriptura and “once saved always saved” and call it a day. It’s easy therefore it is attractive.

 

[Thom18]

One cannot both accept and reject the Church. A person is either Catholic or protestant, there is no in between.

If your friend is having difficulty with the notion of no salvation outside of (or without) the Church, then it would be worth your time to ask them if they accept Jesus’ own words when He says that the sheep will be placed at His right hand and welcomed into His Kingdom, while the goats at His left will be sentenced to the fire prepared for Satan and his angels. If he accepts the latter, then he should accept the former.

 

[MichaelP3]

One cannot both accept and reject the Church. A person is either Catholic or protestant, there is no in between.

Oh just read this very forum (in all categories!) and you will see its not that easy. On the “fact of not being the one and also the other” you can also debate until the cows come home. Maybe the very one’s you say can’t exist are the ones agreeing I have also found.

Point is. There are so many more posters in other Categories that can take something from this. But currently the can and cannot needs some guidance. And that is assuming the guidance is correct in the first place.

 

[MichaelP3]

A person is either Catholic or protestant, there is no in between.

The exact same reason Catholics are confused about Mormanism and Jehovah’s and the Japanese Radio Christian religion. It’s not helping anyone. The same source that some Catholics claim the famous number of “more than 30 000 denominations” ALSO CLAIM more than 200 Catholic denominations. Funny I know but once we get past that it will be better.

 

[JonNC]

Full disclosure I was raised non-denominational and know almost nothing about Lutheranism. My question is what is the thought process or justification used to explain how a schismatic group can have valid apostolic succession when they became schismatics 500 years ago?

Do you question Orthodox orders? They became schismatic 1,000 years ago (or Rome did, depending on your POV). How about the PNCC? Less than 500 years ago.

To me that seems even weaker than the sedevacantist position as their’s say there are zero properly ordained bishops living.

Well, even a good Lutheran would never question the validity of Catholic orders.

My only reason for participating in this thread was to dispute the claim that The Catholic Church failed to continue the faith until Luther’s arrival from a non-Catholic POV. Luther clearly would have disputed this.

 

[JonNC]

Also most Protestants are not Lutheran or High Anglican. Many do in fact believe that Catholics got it all wrong.

Then identify them. Luther’s name was invoked. Here’s what he says:

Yes, we ourselves find it difficult to refute it, especially since we concede—as we must —that so much of what they say is true: that the papacy has God’s Word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scripture , Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them . What would we know of these if it were not for them? Therefore faith, the Christian Church, Christ, and the Holy Spirit must also be found among them.

Most Protestant sects are completely watered down to almost nothing except Sola Scriptura and “once saved always saved” and call it a day. It’s easy therefore it is attractive.

I’m certainly not in the position to defend OSAS or its origin, the Calvinist perseverance of saints. I’ll let them do that except to say I believe your evaluation of them isn’t my understanding of them.