Being both Protestant and Catholic?

[Bushum]

Do you question Orthodox orders? They became schismatic 1,000 years ago (or Rome did, depending on your POV). How about the PNCC? Less than 500 years ago.

I was expecting that response. The truth is I don’t know much about Orthodoxy other than the history of the schism. I think the difference would be that they are basically Catholics who are not in communion with the pope as opposed to believing in the “solas” and choosing which Church teachings they will and will not follow.

Luther’s name was invoked.

His name was invoked because he started the Protestant Rebellion. Every denomination stemmed from his decision but since they couldn’t agree on anything they continued to split. Are there 30,000 like previously mentioned? Probably not but the point is moot. Does it really matter if there are 30,000 or 1,000?

Mentioning Martin Luther is not the same as mentioning Lutheranism as I’m sure he didn’t intend on the consequences he created.

I’m certainly not in the position to defend OSAS or its origin, the Calvinist perseverance of saints. I’ll let them do that except to say I believe your evaluation of them isn’t my understanding of them.

Since I was one for almost 40 years I am in the position to know. This is not meant to be rude but your understanding of them is wrong.

 

[JonNC]

I was expecting that response. The truth is I don’t know much about Orthodoxy other than the history of the schism. I think the difference would be that they are basically Catholics who are not in communion with the pope as opposed to believing in the “solas” and choosing which Church teachings they will and will not follow.

They are considered schismatic by the Catholic Church, yet their orders are considered valid.
They choose not to accept universal jurisdiction. They also do not accept the Filioque, and other teachings that we western Christians actually agree on.

His name was invoked because he started the Protestant Rebellion. Every denomination stemmed from his decision but since they couldn’t agree on anything they continued to split. Are there 30,000 like previously mentioned? Probably not but the point is moot. Does it really matter if there are 30,000 or 1,000?

This is factually false. Very few of the communions/denominations etc have their roots in Lutheranism. Most are linked to the Reformed, or Anabaptists. Anglicans are connected to neither.

Since I was one for almost 40 years I am in the position to know. This is not meant to be rude but your understanding of them is wrong.

If I am wrong about them, which is possible, it is the reason why I don’t speak for them.

 

[Thom18]

Thom18:

A person is either Catholic or protestant, there is no in between.

The exact same reason Catholics are confused about Mormanism and Jehovah’s and the Japanese Radio Christian religion. It’s not helping anyone. The same source that some Catholics claim the famous number of “more than 30 000 denominations” ALSO CLAIM more than 200 Catholic denominations. Funny I know but once we get past that it will be better.

I don’t understand your point. One is either in communion with the bishop of Rome, or they’re not- and if they’re not, then they’re not Catholic. If you claim to be a Christian and are not a Catholic, then you are a protestant. There’s no arguing this.

 

[JonNC]

One is either in communion with the bishop of Rome, or they’re not- and if they’re not, then they’re not Catholic.

Who says? I know Anglicans who consider themselves Anglo-Catholic, Lutherans who go by the original name of the Tradition: Evangelical Catholic. Both groups confess the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

 

[Bushum]

This is factually false. Very few of the communions/denominations etc have their roots in Lutheranism. Most are linked to the Reformed, or Anabaptists. Anglicans are connected to neither.

How is that factually false? Are you making the argument that Martin Luther did not start the protestant rebellion because that is the part of my post that you quoted. I think you are misunderstanding my point. I even specifically made the distinction between Martin Luther as a man and Lutheranism

Mentioning Martin Luther is not the same as mentioning Lutheranism

If not for Martin Luther, the man, there would not have been a protestant rebellion, no 95 thesis, no Anabaptists, no Anglicans, etc. Sure someone else may have done it but that is theoretical and not the point. Again, Martin Luther’s name was invoked because he is the one that publicly accused the Church of being wrong and causing the protest.

 

[Bushum]

Who says? I know Anglicans who consider themselves Anglo-Catholic, Lutherans who go by the original name of the Tradition: Evangelical Catholic. Both groups confess the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

I don’t understand the point of all that. (their point not yours)
If they believe everything the Catholic Church teaches why not just be Catholic? This makes no sense to me

Both groups confess the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

The “One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church” IS the Catholic Church, not the Anglican church, not the Lutheran church, etc.

As a preemptive act, because I know the common objection, Catholic does mean universal but at the time of the Apostle’s Creed there was only one Church and no other options so universal does not and could not mean all protestant churches as there was no such thing.

 

[JonNC]

How is that factually false? Are you making the argument that Martin Luther did not start the protestant rebellion because that is the part of my post that you quoted.

Yes. I am arguing that Zwingli and Calvin and the Anabaptists were never in communion or in league with Luther. That is factually true.
Zwingli and the Anabaptists were concurrent with Luther but we’re not his followers. Calvin came later and was also never in communion with Luther. One need only look at their beliefs to recognize that.

If not for Martin Luther, the man, there would not have been a protestant rebellion, no 95 thesis, no Anabaptists, no Anglicans, etc.

Purely speculative.

Church - Location and Contact Info

There is no reason to believe that Zwingli, and the Anabaptists would not have started their movements.

Again, Martin Luther’s name was invoked because he is the one that publicly accused the Church of being wrong and causing the protest.

The protest was against civil authorities at the second Diet at Speyer in 1529.
Luther’s complaints about indulgences, is far different than the Anabaptist position on baptism.
I don’t think Luther was the only one to publicly complain about the Church in Europe.

 

[adf417]

Seriously…examine your life dude.

You arent Catholic but you spend your time annoying people on a Catholic forum?!

You’ve spent 12 years of your life doing so?!

I feel sorry for you.

Greetings Welshrabbit. I sincerely suggest you reconsider your position regarding @JonNC. His time here on CAF and his impeccable defense of OUR Catholic tradition to other traditions is quite solid. His years of posts is evidence of this. I think you are way off base. I don’t agree with everything JonNC believes but i can assure you he is certainly not a troll.

Peace!!!

 

[JonNC]

I don’t understand the point of all that. (their point not yours)
If they believe everything the Catholic Church teaches why not just be Catholic? This makes no sense to me

Why does one have to believe all the teachings of the Catholic Church in communion with the pope to be Catholic?

The “One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church” IS the Catholic Church, not the Anglican church, not the Lutheran church, etc.

The Church is not only and exclusively found in communion with the pope. Catholic means universal. You and I are both members of the Church. Rome does not have exclusive rights to the name Catholic.

there was only one Church and no other options so universal does not and could not mean all protestant churches as there was no such thing.

There is still only one Church. Via baptism, we are members of His one True Church.

 

[JonNC]

Sincere thanks.

His Peace.

 

[Welshrabbit]

I’m glad you find his posts informative. I told him to leave me alone and he continued to badger me.

That is classic troll behavior and I don’t really care to interact with him anymore.

 

[Bushum]

If not for Martin Luther, the man, there would not have been a protestant rebellion, no 95 thesis, no Anabaptists, no Anglicans, etc. Sure someone else may have done it but that is theoretical and not the point. Again, Martin Luther’s name was invoked because he is the one that publicly accused the Church of being wrong and causing the protest.

Purely speculative.

Now you are being purposefully intellectually dishonest. You quoted half of what I said and left out the part where I specifically admitted to what you are accusing me of in order to try to make it look like I am wrong.

Why does one have to believe all the teachings of the Catholic Church in communion with the pope to be Catholic?

Why does a balloon have to be red to be considered a red balloon? Is this a serious question?

Catholic means universal. You and I are both members of the Church. Rome does not have exclusive rights to the name Catholic.

I already explained why this is an invalid argument as you know since you quoted it.

There is still only one Church. Via baptism, we are members of His one True Church.

We will have to agree to disagree. Protestants are in schism with the one true Church. I guess you can call yourself a schismatic member if you want

 

[GladTidings]

We have two cats. Sometimes they sit next to a closed door because they think they want to go through. Then they meow and look at the door. Then they look at us and meow.

So, next someone opens the door. Then the cats look at the open door and meow, then look at us and meow. Then they lick their paws and then look at the open door, then they meow and look at us.

Why don’t they go through the door? It is clearly what they want.

Sometimes they pretend that you are trying to get them to go through the open door when they don’t really want to. Then they need to pretend that it was their idea all along, they go through, and you may or may not have helped.

 

[on_the_hill]

Is he right? Can one be both Protestant and Catholic at the same time?

Yes, they’re called Episcopalians.

 

[JonNC]

Now you are being purposefully intellectually dishonest.

Really? You think I am being purposely intellectually dishonest? Is that your response in our discussion?

You quoted half of what I said and left out the part where I specifically admitted to what you are accusing me of in order to try to make it look like I am wrong.

Actually, I viewed that part of as a prediction. It wasn’t my intention to be deceptive. The Anabaptists and Zwingli were Luther contemporaries. You seemed to be saying that someone would come along later.

I already explained why this is an invalid argument as you know since you quoted it.

But it isn’t invalid. It is a fact. It is also a fact that Catholic refers to a continuation of the apostolic faith.

The term has been incorporated into the name of the largest Christian communion, the [Catholic Church](also called the Roman Catholic Church). All of the three main branches of Christianity in the East ([Eastern Orthodox Church], [Oriental Orthodox Church]and [Church of the East] had always identified themselves as Catholic in accordance with Apostolic traditions and the [Nicene Creed]. [Anglicans], [Lutherans], and some [Methodists] also believe that their churches are “Catholic” in the sense that they too are in continuity with the original universal church founded by the Apostles.

Catholic (term) - Wikipedia

We will have to agree to disagree. Protestants are in schism with the one true Church. I guess you can call yourself a schismatic member if you want

No. I’ll just call myself Evangelical Catholic.

 

[JonNC]

I’m not sure what to say. If one is going to post on a forum such as this, I don’t think one can post then say leave me alone.
I don’t think I was rude, anymore than posters who challenge what I say are typically rude or badgering.

 

[OKComputer]

Is he right? Can one be both Protestant and Catholic at the same time?
It doesn’t make any sense to me.

I’m with you. Being a Catholic Protestant or a Protestant Catholic is like saying you are a married bachelor. It doesn’t make any sense. It’s nothing against protestants. I grew up in the south surrounded by Baptists and have great respect for them and most protestant denominations.

 

[Bushum]

Really? You think I am being purposely intellectually dishonest? Is that your response in our discussion?

You are doing it again. I said that about one specific instance of one point in our entire discussion. I think you knew that but you applied it to me in regards to everything you have said. When you know my intention or have reason to believe you know my intention but purposely distort it in order to argue against it when I am not even arguing is dishonest. It appeared to me that is what you did. If that was not your intent then please accept my apology.

[Anglicans], [Lutherans], and some [Methodists] also believe that their churches are “Catholic” in the sense that they too are in continuity with the original universal church founded by the Apostles.

And I believe otherwise as does the Catholic Church who considers your orders invalid. I am Catholic so I go by Catholic teaching. There is no sense in arguing it as it comes down to personal feelings that someone believes something, regardless of what Wikipedia says.

No. I’ll just call myself Evangelical Catholic.

Since you are using it as an adjective I would hope all Catholics are evangelical

 

[adf417]

I’m not sure what to say. If one is going to post on a forum such as this, I don’t think one can post then say leave me alone.
I don’t think I was rude, anymore than posters who challenge what I say are typically rude or badgering.

I agree. I have my theories on these types of situations of all sorts of polemics but i am very poor at expressing them, therefore i will refrain from possibly making things worse if you know what i mean. I feel i must leave it up to others who are much better at mediation and evangelization at this level.

Peace!!!

 

[LilyM]

Thom18:

One is either in communion with the bishop of Rome, or they’re not- and if they’re not, then they’re not Catholic.

Who says? I know Anglicans who consider themselves Anglo-Catholic, Lutherans who go by the original name of the Tradition: Evangelical Catholic. Both groups confess the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

With all due respect, I can consider myself a citizen of Ruritania all I like but it doesn’t really matter if the government of Ruritania determines otherwise, does it?