Being gay is in your genes

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You understanding of math is flawed and only demonstrates your desperation to undermine any evidence that SSA is not inerrant.
If I am wrong then prove it.
You are very confused. I would appreciate it if you did not make claims on my behalf. Furthermore, you cannot find one post of mine that disagrees with Catholic doctrine.
That’s because what you say on theology has as much substance as a may fly has longevity. When asked what you believe you claim that it is the same as what the Church says, but you wont actually elaborate on what you think the Church says. I’m sure John Calvin thought his beliefs were in accordance with the Bible.
 
You are very confused. I would appreciate it if you did not make claims on my behalf. Furthermore, you cannot find one post of mine that disagrees with Catholic doctrine.
Well, for one, your claim that most gay people change. But the Catholic Church admits that the desire is deep-seated (aka fairly permanent and unchanging).

If change were as apparent and easy as you would like to claim, why does the Church not advocate or require reorientation therapy?
 
So we’re in agreement.

Which is why it’s puzzling to me why there’s such a push to deny as much as possible a genetic role.

Even if it’s 100% genetic, the call to chastity does not change.
Yes, we agree. To faithful Catholics, the call to chastity does not change.

Opposing sides tend to be polarized because on one hand, there is a push by the left for the belief that acted upon same sex attraction is normal, natural, and even healthy on the basis of genetic (and biological) determinism. On the other hand, conservatives tend to maximize the role of psychological and environmental factors in determining (homo)sexual orientation.

Then there is the related battle being waged by the former that homosexuality is immutable and fixed, with the latter maintaining that it is not.

Marriage and family are being radically redefined, above said battles figuring in whether one would be for or against gay “marriage” and adoption by gay couples of kids, how much religious liberty and free speech can be exercised in view of expanding gay rights. These are the areas where the rubber meets the road for those believing in opposing beliefs.
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Well, for one, your claim that most gay people change. But the Catholic Church admits that the desire is deep-seated (aka fairly permanent and unchanging).

If change were as apparent and easy as you would like to claim, why does the Church not advocate or require reorientation therapy?
The Church does not admit that homosexuality is deep seated.

As far as my claim that homosexuality changes for most people, it is fact. Search the threads and you will find the source.
 
If I am wrong then prove it.

That’s because what you say on theology has as much substance as a may fly has longevity. When asked what you believe you claim that it is the same as what the Church says, but you wont actually elaborate on what you think the Church says. I’m sure John Calvin thought his beliefs were in accordance with the Bible.
I have confronted many of your posts before and instead of responding to them you come up with more unsubstantiated opinion promoted as fact. It is apparent that your goal is not to learn but to try to convince people that SSA is inherent anyway you can.
 
Thanks. Did the study differentiate between heritable genes and those that are epigenetic? If not, and if epigenetic change is measurable, then can we assume that epigenetics is part of the 40%?
Epigenetic changes are chemical modifications of DNA (e.g., methylation) or modifiers of gene expression (e.g., post-translational modifications of histones that wrap around DNA). Most changes are not permanent, but how they are made/unmade is not entirely known, much less how the changes are targeted specifically. They do not change the amino acid sequence of a resulting protein — just expression (a lot, medium, little, none).

Are epigenetic changes noticeable? If you mean detectable, then yes. Lots of people study that in context of cancer, for instance.

But I’m not sure people want to spend money (it’s still quite expensive, which is justifiable for cancer research) only to show that there’s a correlation between possible epigenetic changes and sexual orientation. And it would be hard to convince anyone to do human research to find a causative link.
 
If “fruitful” means having children, then yes. A homosexual can father children and be in a meaningful relationship with someone of the opposite sex. Not even the “gay activists” are denying that gays can have children. It’s the psychological detriment of having to live a lie and pretend. If both partners of a marriage where one is not straight are completely honest with each other and are OK, then all power to them.
What lie? It is not a lie that they can have children. Are they not also capable of love? Are the slave to their emotions?

If I am attracted to someone who is not my wife, it is no lie for me to remain faithful and I am still capable of love. The way homosexuals are discussed I would think we were talking about animals devoid of free will.

Oh, and fruitful in the context it is being used does mean having children. It can be used to describe other ways people can contribute to society or in ways that a tree can provide fruit. Both of these are irrelevant.

BTW - (Disclaimer) While I have expressed my doubts as to the how significant genetics are to homosexuality, I am open to the idea, should science ever prove it to be similar to the genetic disease mentioned earlier. This part is a matter of science, not faith.
 
What lie? It is not a lie that they can have children. Are they not also capable of love? Are the slave to their emotions?

If I am attracted to someone who is not my wife, it is no lie for me to remain faithful and I am still capable of love. The way homosexuals are discussed I would think we were talking about animals devoid of free will.

Oh, and fruitful in the context it is being used does mean having children. It can be used to describe other ways people can contribute to society or in ways that a tree can provide fruit. Both of these are irrelevant.

BTW - (Disclaimer) While I have expressed my doubts as to the how significant genetics are to homosexuality, I am open to the idea, should science ever prove it to be similar to the genetic disease mentioned earlier. This part is a matter of science, not faith.
The lie of pretending to not be attracted/tempted to the same sex. A non-heterosexual husband may not cherish/love the wife as much as a heterosexual husband would. It would be best to be honest upfront, instead of hiding and falling to temptation and causing emotional pain for the wife when she finds out her husband had same-sex extramarital incidences.

In a perfect world, no one would sin. But there’s that pesky temptation and weakness of human nature that is a reality.
 
The Church does not admit that homosexuality is deep seated.

As far as my claim that homosexuality changes for most people, it is fact. Search the threads and you will find the source.
And your link dead ends, it cites no sources on that page.
Yes, we agree. To faithful Catholics, the call to chastity does not change.

Opposing sides tend to be polarized because on one hand, there is a push by the left for the belief that acted upon same sex attraction is normal, natural, and even healthy on the basis of genetic (and biological) determinism. On the other hand, conservatives tend to maximize the role of psychological and environmental factors in determining (homo)sexual orientation.

Then there is the related battle being waged by the former that homosexuality is immutable and fixed, with the latter maintaining that it is not.

Marriage and family are being radically redefined, above said battles figuring in whether one would be for or against gay “marriage” and adoption by gay couples of kids, how much religious liberty and free speech can be exercised in view of expanding gay rights. These are the areas where the rubber meets the road for those believing in opposing beliefs.
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I find that given that the Jones and Yarhouse study which was funded by Exodus International and conducted by two evangelical Christians who set out to prove it can change found substantially less than half experienced complete orientation change over a decade with a sample that very much wanted to change it is highly unlikely that a substantial percent of gay people can change. The only group who have been really found to “change” “sexuality” is women and that is more of changing identity than an actual change of attractions. When men have claimed change it is usually seen to be them claiming to be straight, but then they are often exposed as not actually having changed, see Michael Bussee, Gary Cooper and John Paulk.

It can be rather harmful to go in with overly optimistic as you have young men who are attracted to the same sex, thinking they can change because people tell them they can, that God will “heal” them get married. And then you get toxic situations where the husband isn’t attracted to the wife, never was and she was duped into it, toss in kids which are likely by the time the man realizes he has been duped. This is one ugly situation that will likely lead to a rather ugly divorce and hurt everyone involved.

I don’t think it is impossible for sexuality to change, but we need to be honest and realistic about it instead of claiming that it will happen if they pray enough or go to some therapy. In the former case when it doesn’t work it lead to people thinking that they must be bad people for being attracted to the same sex, that God hates them, that they are unlovable, etc. and none of those are theologically sound or healthy. It is possible for LGB people to be happily married to someone of the opposite sex, it requires honest and openness from the beginning, Kyle Keating and Melinda Selmys are good examples, IIRC the latter has been on Catholic Answers live.

Currently we (not the Catholic Church) teach them (especially males) they can’t have close friends of the same sex because that is a “near occasion of sin” and they can’t have close friends of the opposite sex because that is “unseemly” which leaves them unable to have close friends, given that, they can’t marry and few people seem inclined to open their hearts and hoes to them it leaves them profoundly alone. Man doesn’t need sex, but he does need to belong and love; it is not good for man to be alone.
 
It would be best to be honest upfront, instead of hiding and falling to temptation and causing emotional pain for the wife when she finds out her husband had same-sex extramarital incidences.
We should be careful here. It is by no means an inevitability that there will be “extramarital incidences.” And I shouldn’t think that there would be more same-sex incidences than opposite-sex incidences. Regardless of the type of infidelity, it is infidelity. And I wouldn’t think that fact that one may have SSA makes infidelity more likely.
 
Thanks. Did the study differentiate between heritable genes and those that are epigenetic? If not, and if epigenetic change is measurable, then can we assume that epigenetics is part of the 40%?
All genes are heritable. The DNA sequence you are born with is the same DNA sequence you’ll die with (except for random mutations here and there). Epigenetic changes can be heritable. Epigenetic changes also occur independently of parental contribution. In fact, there are countless epigenetic changes going on in your cells right now. They determine how your body processes food, external stimuli, sleep, metabolism, pathogen protection, stem cell differentiation, etc. So…pretty much everything going on in your body.

“Epigenetics” is not a single thing. It’s a term used for any modification beyond the DNA sequence level that determines gene expression. There are many, many such changes, acting singly or in a concerted manner to produce an effect. Epigenetics and genes cannot be neatly separated into two boxes, nor are they mutually exclusive.

It’s easy to think Gene X = Phenotype X. And for some diseases, a single mutation is sufficient to cause malfunction and subsequent disease. But for height or skin color, for instance, there’s no single gene that determines the final outcome.

I don’t think we can assume anything as of now…especially when people with good intention try to mix up the language and findings of biology to fit their theological understanding.
 
We should be careful here. It is by no means an inevitability that there will be “extramarital incidences.” And I shouldn’t think that there would be more same-sex incidences than opposite-sex incidences. Regardless of the type of infidelity, it is infidelity. And I wouldn’t think that fact that one may have SSA makes infidelity more likely.
But they happen. I’m not saying they will happen. But they do. That’s the reality. It’s not about whether SSA infidelity is more or less likely to occur.

Doesn’t the wife deserve to know this about her husband if he has these temptations? If she finds out about such a hypothetical extramarital incident, wouldn’t she be more likely to be more shocked if it were a same-sex incident?

It’s not just telling or not telling a co-worker or even a friend. She’s a spouse.

(Edit: I can’t say whether they would happen in a Catholic marriage. But in the outside world, they do.)
 
I don’t think we can assume anything as of now…especially when people with good intention try to mix up the language and findings of biology to fit their theological understanding.
But my friend that is what you and they gay lobby do. The fact is there is no definitive studies that show homosexuality is biological. Furthermore, if 100 persons read a preliminary study with suggested biological causes and decide that must be definitive proof it still does not make it true.
 
I have confronted many of your posts before and instead of responding to them you come up with more unsubstantiated opinion promoted as fact. It is apparent that your goal is not to learn but to try to convince people that SSA is inherent anyway you can.
Please, link where you proved the math or the application was wrong.
Please already, lying is not becoming of a Christian.
mygenes.co.nz/summary.htm

This page doesn’t actually cite anything, merely says it is from his book.
 
Thank you for clearing that up. Let me make sure I have it correct this time; you are saying culpability for the sexual behavior sin and not for the belief that homosexuality is genetic?

I know sometimes I am dense and get confused easily but its best to clear things up and not take away a misinterpretation of what is being said or implied.

Thanks again for you patience.
Yes, believing that homosexuality is genetic is not sinful, but if one believes that, therefore, the practice of homosexual sex (the sin) is justifiable, and in fact, no longer sinful, they are sadly mistaken. This seems to be the aim of most the research over the past 50 years to prove the genetic origin of homosexuality, as if that would somehow make the behavior all right. Even if homosexuality were wholly genetic, which it clearly is not, it would not take away the gravity of homosexual sex, although it would greatly mitigate one’s culpability, or so I would think. It would still remain a mortal sin, I believe, but would hopefully draw the person increasingly to the confessional and a greater dependence on God and his mercy. I think that many men experience the same strong and addictive draw toward other sexual sins, such as masturbation, which “seems” altogether “natural,” and they, too, would benefit by resorting to frequent confession and greater dependence on God in their helplessness, hoping that by his grace they can put aside the wrongful behavior that seems all so strong and dominating in their lives. Correct me if I am wrong.
 
Yes, believing that homosexuality is genetic is not sinful, but if one believes that, therefore, the practice of homosexual sex (the sin) is justifiable, and in fact, no longer sinful, they are sadly mistaken. This seems to be the aim of most the research over the past 50 years to prove the genetic origin of homosexuality, as if that would somehow make the behavior all right. Even if homosexuality were wholly genetic, which it clearly is not, it would not take away the gravity of homosexual sex, although it would greatly mitigate one’s culpability, or so I would think. It would still remain a mortal sin, I believe, but would hopefully draw the person increasingly to the confessional and a greater dependence on God and his mercy. I think that many men experience the same strong and addictive draw toward other sexual sins, such as masturbation, which “seems” altogether “natural,” and they, too, would benefit by resorting to frequent confession and greater dependence on God in their helplessness, hoping that by his grace they can put aside the wrongful behavior that seems all so strong and dominating in their lives. Correct me if I am wrong.
(sorry for chiming in uninvited)

I don’t think most people who research the cause of homosexuality actually care enough about morality or spiritual matters to even have a desire to make homosexual acts morally justifiable. Things just are, whether the cause is biological, psychological, or both. Morally does not factor in. God is not even on the radar. (Just my opinion of most biological research.)

Many Christians feel the need to prove that homosexuality has no biological basis. Why? It’s not like one day, a biological explanation will do away with Church teachings on morality. Biology does not justify or explain morality.
 
Open this link:

Twin Studies - The Strongest Evidence

The references are on the last three of 36 pages.
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His argument appears to be identical twins are exposed to identical genetic influences and biological influences in the womb therefore if they don’t have identical rates of homosexuality it can’t have been caused in the womb, only the former has been shown to be false in the past decade due to epigenetic markers and the latter has been known to be untrue due to differences in things like birth weight, sometimes 25%+.
 
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