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Expatreprocedit
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With regard to “peer pressure”, there is definitely a social environmental and cultural influence on some individual’s sexuality.
- Status
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Tony_the_mad
Guest
The answer to that question has been scientifically proven to be a resounding no.
What I am more interested in is the choice side of it. When I look in a mirror it is obvious to me that I am fat. Do I have some genetic predisposition to be fat? Probably. Did I choose to be fat? No. Did I make choices that led me to be fat? YES. Should I clam responsibility for those choices or should I hide behind the fact that I did not chose to be fat? I am not comfortable either way. To deny that I made the choices that made me fat is to say that I am naturally fat and to take away the value of all the small choices I make. To take full responsibility for all the choices I made is to deny the difficulties of the temptations I have faced and to say ‘I have made bad choices but it is not who I am’.
We are all a product of our choices even if we would not chose the end results.
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JamesCaruso
Guest
Sorry, I was talking about, but did not say so, male homosexuals only. I don’t have a clue about female homosexuality. Our psychologies (men and women’s) are so different, I think. Now, I’ll probably get a similar comment from a male, but that’s what I was talking about, even if I got that one wrong, too..
No…that’s not how it usually is. When I was about 15, my mom got me a sports magazine (Sports Illustrated, ESPN: the Magazine, something like that), and inside they had a full poster centerfold of Maria Sharapova. I remember distinctly thinking like “woah
I don’t know why people think that SSAs are so foreign and crazy. Your OSAs weren’t caused by trauma from members of your own sex. It makes no sense to think SSAs would be caused by trauma from the opposite sex.
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Rin
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You’re still completely misrepresenting the phenomenon of transgenderism, so there’s not really much of a point in debating you. It’s like debating a Protestant who keeps saying “Catholics worship Mary” even after being informed otherwise ad nauseam. I see little point in that.
But, since you seem to not see the link between the studies I linked (whose abstracts I have indeed read, but then I don’t make a habit of misunderstanding things on purpose), I have one more thing to ask you to consider: Given the existence of CAIS women who have XY chromosomes, a rarer condition where men have XX chromosomes, and the existence of XXY, XXX, XXXY, XXXXY etc. individuals (especially XXY is fairly common), why do you cling to outdated science? Medical science no longer sees the Y chromosome as sufficient as a male marker. That is fact, not opinion. Clinging to the XX/XY theory of differentiation is like clinging to Newtonian physics; both may work in daily life for most problems, but neither is correct.
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JamesCaruso
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I was speaking from general observation. It would not apply to each and every person.Ah, so this explains why I started lusting after the pictures of male athletes when I was 11. It was because my little relationship in 4th grade with a little blond girl made me sexually frustrated.
And that whole sexually intimate relationship with a girl that I had when I was a teenager, that must have made me feel sexually frustrated too. I was so lonely that I decided I needed the object of my attraction to have a penis.
This is just all becoming so clear to me now!
I know one person who was extremely aggressive in pursuing sex with women. Later, he turned to males. He did not seem to have any religious grounding and appeared from the outside to simply be pursuing sexual pleasure. It seemed he had indulged so much in heterosexual sex that it lost its excitement for him and he got bored with it. Once he switched to same-sex sex, he never returned to heterosexual sex to my knowledge. He did not appear to be homosexual before he started experimenting with same-sex sex. I personally believe it was a learned behavior for him, and that if he wanted, he could reverse the process. The trouble in his case is that he never had any religious faith or moral standard to follow, so why would he want to change? For him it seemed to be all about pleasure I think, not morality. I think where there is no religious grounding, or where religion is rejected, it is more likely for a person to proceed from heterosexual behavior to homosexual behavior based solely on desire to experience every kind of sexual expression. What do your think? It might explain how whole cities like Sodom and Gomorrah could turn almost exclusively to homosexuality.
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JamesCaruso
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You said “once it is set.” But it might well be that they could have changed how they would be “set” if they had made better choices (thought-wise and action-wise) even at a very young age. I remember when I was very young many of the guys in my Catholic grade school seemed of the opinion that a person who received same-sex oral sex was not doing anything homosexual but it was the other person who was the homosexual. I remember those discussions clearly, because I was not of that opinion. At that age, 11, 12 and 13, when masturbation is usually the only sexual experience, sexual gratification in general seem to be the goal more than sex with the opposite sex, even though that is always acknowledged as the ultimate goal. This kind of thinking can go a long way toward a person allowing his thoughts to go in the direction of same-sex sex and to make experimentation more likely, both leading to his being “set” as you say in same-sex attraction. I think that young people can largely form their own “setting” even though they are so young,
I don’t believe that our sexual preferences suddenly overwhelm us from nowhere. One post in this thread mentions a young 11-year old girl lusting after women in pictures. That does not mean she was already “set” in that attraction, but her not nipping those thoughts and desires in the bud whenever they came to mind could be responsible for causing her to eventually be “set” in same-sex attraction, I know it’s a lot to expect of a person that young, but that’s why I think strong religious training in grade school is important. And that’s why I think it’s harmful for young kids to be taught that homosexuality is an acceptable life style.
I think that same-sex attraction is largely a learned thing, I know we may disagree on that. Also, I can’t accept that same-sex attraction is permanently set once it is set. It may seem that way for most people but that may go to their inner belief that they can’t help being the way that they are. I believe it has a lot to do with what one allows his mindset to be.
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SMGS127
Guest
Well, our complexities…yes I agree there. My ex-girlfriends could drive me insane, and I can’t even imagine how it is for straight men, who don’t get all the little cues and things.
But I don’t know if that applies to sexual orientation, insomuch as it applies to physical attraction. Yes, I can be aroused through all sorts of different emotional cues, even by men, but gut physical reactions? Not at all. Whereas I have both with women. Obviously I’m not dating women anymore since becoming Catholic, but I understand why some women get bothered when they compare the two situations. Like, on the one hand, I have a girl who I totally get along with and have an amazing physical bond with, and on the other hand, I have a guy who can make me laugh and who I enjoy myself around, but to whom no gut visceral reaction exists, no matter how attractive. And while there are guys I certainly find much more visually appealing than others (<3 James Roday), there still is no visceral reaction.
As for what I felt possibly being simply admiration, I most assure you I was just simply being polite with my language. It was most definitely a sexual attraction in nature. I avoid VS commercials when they come on partly because of the near occasion of sin and partly because I feel like I’m being sexist towards my own gender with my own attractions, an objectification of sorts. And I definitely know the difference between “locker room envy” and SSAs too. Completely different reactions.
No offense to you or anyone else, sincerely, but I do believe that straight people have a very, very hard time understanding what it means to have SSAs. My straight female friends all have their close-knit female friends who they’d never ever be attracted to, and who they can discuss dating partners with, whereas the guys of groups aren’t in the circles and are also dating material. And they don’t get it when you try to explain “well, I mean, I have attractions to girls.” “After all, it wouldn’t make sense for a girl to like another girl. And does that mean she’s been attracted to me? Gasp!
” 
And guys are so infuriating to talk to about attractions, even if they are similar (though I would never call them the same; I agree with a different poster that men and women have very different sexualities), because they discuss them in such different ways. I’ve also found that guys don’t even feel comfortable discussing girls with girls.So people automatically assume if you have a condition they don’t understand, that it must mean there’s something wrong with you. And I disagree. I don’t think SSAs mean something is wrong with someone at all. Why should our physical attractions be considered bad at all? They exist, yes. But isn’t charity about doing what’s right, even when it’s opposed to our gut reactions? I’ll never understand why guys masturbate at all, let alone feel some compulsive need to do so, for example. But I’m not going to say something’s wrong with them that they feel a want to, even though I don’t understand this want. I will say, however, that acting upon it is wrong and disordered, just as I will with SS behavior. But in neither case do I see a need to push therapy that teaches a complete reversion of compulsion, when they could use therapy that teaches to value the compulsion less, naturally reducing the power of the compulsion itself.
I agree with this, but I think we can’t let a fear of how information will be used by opponents of the Church dictate how we interpret scientific discovery. When we do, we open the Church to belittlement by these opponents, and ultimately we do more harm to the image of the Church by denying science than the science itself would do on its face.
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SMGS127
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Well, I don’t know. I’m not comfortable with the idea that anyone can change sexualities. I can’t tell you how many straight guys I know that I could not ever, in a million years, imagine attracted to men. And to make the argument that someone could “change” from SSAs to OSAs means you have to prove the argument that someone could “change” from OSAs to SSAs. And you cannot use bisexuals as proof for the argument. But I’m not going to pretend to know a guy’s sexuality. I just see a deep aversion to friends with SSAs being a product of super-macho male culture. Maybe that’s a misinterpretation as I don’t experience it day-to-day, but it’s what it appears like. I’ll leave your post to gay & bisexual men to dissect, and they (or even straight men!) are certainly free to dissect mine as well.
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Hopey
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I like to use disorder instead of bad. You have to know what is is ordered first, and why, to understand the disorder. I have disordered appetites as I am sure most will experience to some degree also. I think the confusion, lack of getting the message out, comes when one takes it internally - these actions are wrong so I am disordered instead of labeling the desires. The conclusion is wrong, as with anyone ascribing that to themselves and not an act that is wrong.
The most freeing thing in the Church is that she doesn’t require anyone to marry. She knows in her wisdom that people can discern and find they should not marry for whatever reason.
Everyone is made in the image and likeness of God, chiefly in the soul.
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LisaA
Guest
I addressed these extremely rare and tragic situations in a previous post. In such cases the parents choose a primary sex and the child then has necessary surgery and hormone therapy. The exception however doesn’t make the rule. How about this, in 99.99999999% of the time a child is born a male or a female. No amount of surgery or therapy will make him a her or vice versa. A child born with primary sex characteristics of both has a primary identity determined in most cases by the parents which necessitates surgical intervention.
This is a far cry from the “trans bathroom” meme that has a child waking up one morning as a boy even though SHE was born with a double X chromosome, a uterus and a vagina. That is ridiculous. However some cities and states in their bizarre obsession with following whatever the trend is, demand that the child be able to decide if she wants to dress down in the boys locker room or he gets to shower with the girls after PE.
Lisa
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LisaA
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Once again you cling to an extremely rare situation to ignore reality. Unlike debate over whether or not Catholics worship Mary, an XX or XY chromosome provides objective evidence of the maleness or femaleness of the individual. Yes there are extremely rare situations but they do not negate the reality that in 99.9999999% of human births, the child is distinctly male or female. He or she is born with male or female genitalia and will develop as a man or a woman.
It seems as if instead of using objective standards that are valid in the vast majority of human beings, you suggest that the completely arbitrary preference of the person rules over his or her biology.
Lisa
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LisaA
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I wouldn’t use the word “learned” so much as programmed. It is clear the mind can become programmed by a repetition of stimulus/response until the pathway is so entrenched, like hardened ruts in a dirt road, are very difficult to overcome. This is why most if not all psychiatrists claim that someone who abuses children sexually cannot ‘deprogram’ and have a normal sexual response to an adult. This proved tragic when such offenders are released after incarceration or “treatment” only to offend again.
As to same sex attraction, having seen the way young males are wooed and lured by older homosexuals, I believe that they learn via this stimulus response, particularly at a time when their brains are forming and they are inculcating certain values and experiences.
I don’t think sexual orientation is fixed at birth or even puberty. Too many move in and out of both worlds, some leave and stay permanently, some experiment and reject this lifestyle. If the person lives as a heterosexual and says they are no longer engaged in homosexual activity, I will accept their attestation unless there is evidence to the contrary. The power of sexual attraction is incredible. How many of us have seen an adulterous affair break up a marriage where the offending partner leaves behind his/her family, maybe his/her career, home, associations, all for sex. It’s a powerful obsession but not a magnificent one.
Lisa
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Rin
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Once again you cling to your own, constructed reality. Intersex conditions account for 1 out of 500 children - that is not extremely rare at all. As I said, the reality is that XX/XY is no longer seen as sufficient by science - apparently you only “prefer science” when it confirms your bias.
You also completely ignore the reality surrounding gender differentiation of the brain. This is well founded by science, which you seem to prefer to ignore. It is not “preference”. It is a very deep-seated identity, and the dysphoria that emerges in transsexual brains is torture. You’re dismissing some of the worst human suffering possible as “preference” - I’m disgusted.
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Joie_de_Vivre
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We’re talking about even more severe masculinization than a tomboy and it doesn’t change. We’re talking about children born with a penis but act like a girl despite how hard parents, teachers and peers try to break them of it or those that merely act as if they conform, but remain nonconformist on the inside.
Clearly David Reimer should have just learned to be a girl.
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LisaA
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First I tried to confirm your “1 in 500 births” meme and found nothing to support it. There were certain variations that appear in 1 out of 1000 or 1 out of 1500 births. OK instead of 99.99999% we have 99% of children are born clearly one sex or the other. However, this isn’t the issue as I’ve said when a child is born with elements of both sexes (there seem to be several variations of this) at birth or shortly thereafter the parents decide whether or not to perform the surgery or provide the hormone treatment to emphasis the apparently dominant sex. However as I saw on a documentary, sometimes the parents decide that the “easiest” route is best and in the case noted a child born with both was deemed a girl because the parents thought it would be easier to create a “vagina” than a fully formed and operational penis. The child always self identified as a boy and I understand at some point reversed the surgery.
OK these unusual and clearly biological cases exists and as I said from the beginning, the parents and the child must play the seemingly horrible hand they’ve been dealt.
I do not think this is the situation with most self identified transgender persons. The cases I’ve heard about were those with fully formed and seemingly normal chromosomes and genitalia. At some point, and it appears to be late in adulthood, the person becomes convinced he is a she or vice versa. We’ve all seen “Chaz Bono” and the “Pregnant Man” on TV. Currently on the news we are hearing about a convict serving a life sentence for killing his wife (that would be a female wife) but has now determined he is a she and unfortunately the taxpayers will pay for his surgeries because of his mental anguish. Excuse me for not being too sympathetic to that situation.
I just don’t find those situations comparable to a clearly determined biological based confusion about whether one is male or female. I think that indeed the brain can convince the soul of just about anything. The brain is a wonderful slave and terrible master. The brain tells the addict he needs drugs or the married man that he won’t be happy unless he leaves his wife for a younger woman or a compulsive gambler he will win if he just places one more bet. That the brain tells us something, doesn’t mean its valid. One may sincerely believe he is a woman or she is a man. OK fine believe it. I accept biology and Genesis more than someone’s individual thoughts. YMMV.
Lisa
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Rin
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I was indeed wrong - sex ambiguity of some kind or another (counting mild cases) occurs in 1 out of 100 children, so it’s more common than I thought:
isna.org/faq/frequency
As I implied earlier, 1% (or even 0.2%, as my first number indicated), is not extremely rare - it’s fairly common. And yes, they do indeed have to play the hand they’ve been dealt; human need for “normality” has until now made this hand worse than it really is, through making doctors assign sex prematurely. Thankfully doctors now often discourage gender assignment surgery until the child is old enough to express their gender identity.
The cases where reversal has been done, proves how strong gender identities are, by the way; they are a trait of our brains. Why is it so incredibly difficult for you to believe that this differentiation of the brain can “go wrong”, when differentiation of genitalia obviously can go wrong? Why is the brain’s development apparently perfect with regards to gender identity, in your opinion?
You couldn’t be more wrong. The first symptoms of transgenderism almost always appears by age 4-6. Most individuals have realized something is horribly wrong by the time they hit puberty, if not before.
Perhaps you should admit your complete ignorance regarding this subject, instead of continuing to make unfounded claims?
Actually, I haven’t. I’ve heard the name Chaz Bono, but never seen either on TV. Pop culture doesn’t really interest me much.
Why always pull out the extremes? “50 genders on Facebook” (which many TG individual thinks is just as stupid as you do)… “Wake up as a girl and use the girl’s restroom” (which is not what that law is about)… “Convict killing his wife and demanding transgender treatment” (probably first case of its kind in the 70-80 years sex reassignment has been possible)…
How about “Being bullied for acting like a girl since early childhood, by parents as well as classmates and teachers. By age 14, can’t stand it anymore and receives hormone treatment. Age 17, gang raped in locker room because teachers forced her to shower with males. Age 18, suicide, after a life of abuse, and no sympathy of charity from anyone, including those who claim to follow Jesus Christ.”
Or “Being bullied for acting like a girl. Grew up in a “conservative” family, and decides to hide feminine traits. By age 17, after years of depression, the dysphoria becomes unbearable. Receives ultimatum from parents - if she follows “that lifestyle”, she’ll have to move out. Can’t take it, ends up on the street. Sells her body to afford hormones. Starts using drugs to quell her pain. Age 20, dies from overdose.”
Those are also extremes, but vastly more common than the cases you point to to defend your stance. Then there’s also the more common story, which happens to be mine:
“Bullied for acting feminine since young age. Realizes something is very wrong come puberty. Doesn’t know about gender reassignment, but upon reading about this at around age 15, feels the world finally makes sense. Unlucky; lives in a puritan Protestant area, soon learns to repress her identity. After a few years, the “problem” is so far repressed that she does not even acknowledge it to herself except in “weak moments”. Troughout period of repression, experiences increased mental distress, landing her in psych ward repeatedly. Hates her body without even remembering why; develops self-injury tendencies and eating disorders. Fifteen years later, gender dysphoria can no longer be repressed, and starts to force its way out. Causes distress, but after two years, after being seconds from suicide, acknowledges her situation and decides to accept herself. Eating disorder completely disappears overnight, and self-injury tendencies become manageable. Life finally makes sense.”
This is what gender dysphoria is about. Not “preferences”. Not “pop culture”. It is a living hell, and I am sickened by the attitudes I see among some Catholics. It’s not just a lack of compassion - what I see is straight out anti-compassion. Shame on you.
I think I’ve already addressed most of this while my keyboard carried me away, but no, you do not accept biology. You reject biology. Period.
Edit: In addition, there is nothing in Genesis which contradicts the possibility of transgenderism. Transgender individuals generally fully identify with one gender; we’re the opposite of deconstructionists. Which is why we’re just as hated by radical feminists as by “conservative” Christians.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
SSA is produced by one’s spirituality. It is not innate to the person. Spirit, whether from God or from Satan, is by far the most salient factor affecting one’s sexual nature.
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LisaA
Guest
Yes and there are minor differences in pigment of Caucasian children but that doesn’t mean a slightly different hue means one is not Caucasian. The appearance, shape, size and function of genitalia differ from person to person. You might not give me credit but I DID read a number of references about these issues from very “PRO” sources National Association of Intersex something…and they did admit that the majority of the differences are minor. OK so what? If you’re male go into a locker room and tell me every penis is identical or for females the shape of the labia are identical. This doesn’t mean anything other than a girl might feel embarrassed about mismatching breasts or fleshy labia. A boy may feel embarrassed by a small penis or testicles. People are different but for most of them it doesn’t become an obsession or identity crisis. In the cases you cited, of course there is no excuse for bullying or physical abuse for ANY reason. Further you speak to the extreme and outrageous cases as well. No one on this list is going to claim you or anyone else deserved cruel treatment. But please quit conflating your situation with the societal upheaval over “trans” issues.
You are clearly not from America since you refuse to believe the kind of bizarre laws going into effect for “trans” people which DO include the ability of school children to decide from day to day which bathroom to use, which sports team they wish to be on or how they dress or wear their hair… As to “Chaz Bono” this is the offspring of the singing duo Sonny and Cher who was born apparently a girl, raised a girl and then in adulthood went through gender reassignment. Chaz Bono appeared on a very popular TV show called Dancing With The Stars apparently. The “Pregnant Man” was another adult female who went through some kind of therapy however retained a uterus and was impregnanted (do not know the details) so we were treated to news reports showing a person with a beard and male appearance and a very advanced pregnancy. I do not think this person was a man despite the appearance of a beard.
You seem to have a vested interest and passion for this subject and keep demanding compassion. If by that word you demand acceptance of all concepts transgender, you mistake the term compassion. I hold no animus toward someone who decides to get gender reassignment and I believe they sincerely think they are a man or a woman. We actually had a male in my former church who was undergoing sex reassignment. We all treated the person with respect and good manners. But that some believe they are the “wrong” sex doesn’t mean I have to believe it. There is simply too much subjectivity involved. I think the ‘gender bender’ meme is dangerous for our society, dangerous for the construct of families, and will result in the majority being subjected to making serious accommodations for a tiny minority some of whom may simply be gaming the system.
Do I think some enterprising teen boy will pretend to think he’s a girl to get an entry into the girl’s showers? Yep. Do I think the convict who wants gender surgery as he continues his life sentence for murdering his wife should receive it on my nickel? Nope. As individuals, people should all be treated as fellow human beings but that doesn’t extend to changing the rest of society for the benefit of a few and sadly that seems to be a common objective among the “gender bender” cohort. I truly despair over what has been happening in this country.
Lisa
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Rin
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You’re missing the mark. Ambiguity is more than a small variation - it is a variation worthy of medical attention. It is a situation where anatomical sex cannot be determined with full certainty.
What you don’t get, is that the “societal upheaval” happens because of these outrageous cases. It happens because American teachers have insisted on sending trans girls to the boys’ locker room, resulting in rape and violence. It happens because people lose their jobs and end up on the street, over nothing other than gender expression. It happens because of grave injustice.
And don’t for a second believe that my story is anything out of the ordinary. Virtually every transgender individual I’ve spoken to has a similar story to tell. We are the lepers of modern society.
And while no one on this forum will admit to thinking we deserve what we get, their opinions cause it, nevertheless. Calling transgender treatment “Frankenstein” (happened recently in another thread), comparing our condition to believing we are an ostrich, etc, all contribute to the stigma, ridicule and ill sentiments towards us. Words kill; and I have to admit, the one place I sometimes have to avoid to make sure my self-destructive tendencies don’t resurface, is CAF.
I am indeed not from America (for which I thank Our Lord daily), but I can read English fairly well, and I’ve read pretty much all coverage I could find on those laws. You misrepresent them. Your misrepresentation is however very similar to what I’ve seen on some very biased “news outlets”; so no worries, you are not alone.
Again, I don’t really have much interest in pop culture - I always found it superficial. That said, I also see no reason to speculate about other people’s identities. It is between them and God, and not my business.
I do not demand acceptance; I demand respect. Being called Frankenstein, compared to someone who believes themself to be Napoleon, and not least accused of conspiracy to destroy society and the Church, does not only constitute lack of respect and lack of compassion, but sin against charity. People here seem to be very preoccupied with correcting sin - I’m just joining the club, so to say.
That said, while I recognize the legitimacy of theological disagreement (believing sex reassignment to be morally problematic despite the legitimacy of the condition and the positive effect of the treatment), since the Church hasn’t ruled either way (other than hesitatingly permitting sex reassignment when therapeutically necessary, you’ll find references in other threads here), I have problems with people who outright deny the current scientific consensus, which is well founded and as of yet not contradicted by data. Just as I have problems with anti-vaxxers, evolution deniers and so on. I see it as irrational. That does not mean I see them as heretics; just gravely ignorant.
That is at least good; I wish everyone was as lucky as her. Too many are robbed of their faith by fellow Catholics; apparently your former parish is a good one.
What you have to realize is that the “gender benders” are rare and not really the reason for those laws and accommodations - those laws are there for the rape and murder victims, for the people who just want to live as the woman (or man) they are, without having to be outed through being forced to use the opposite restroom. The people those laws are for want to blend into the existing society; not change it.
Your fears regarding those teen boys are unfounded; there’s not a chance in Gehinnom that’s going to happen, given the stigma of being transgender. Even in California (believe me, I’ve spoken to Californian TG individuals). And again, the “what-ifs” always have to be dealt with no matter what the law sounds like; where I live, those “what-ifs” are transgender, and since it has been handled well, there is also no restroom law. This tendency of letting principle trump common sense is symptomatic of American society - and it consistently leads to absurdities like restroom laws, cake baking laws, etc. It would be amusing if it didn’t have a tragic side to it.
Regarding changing society for a few, we do it all the time - and the Church often demands it, on behalf of Catholics. Where I live, Catholics constitute less than 4% of the general population. Yet, we have all kinds of exceptions and accommodations, more than transgender individuals do. By your logic, those accommodations should be removed - I oppose that just as much as I oppose refusing accommodations for transgender individuals.
- Status