Being gay is in your genes

[LisaA]

You’re missing the mark. Ambiguity is more than a small variation - it is a variation worthy of medical attention. It is a situation where anatomical sex cannot be determined with full certainty.

What you don’t get, is that the “societal upheaval” happens because of these outrageous cases. It happens because American teachers have insisted on sending trans girls to the boys’ locker room, resulting in rape and violence.

And don’t for a second believe that my story is anything out of the ordinary. Virtually every transgender individual I’ve spoken to has a similar story to tell. We are the lepers of modern society.

I do not demand acceptance; I demand respect. Being called Frankenstein, compared to someone who believes themself to be Napoleon,

What you have to realize is that the “gender benders” are rare and not really the reason for those laws and accommodations - those laws are there for the rape and murder victims, for the people who just want to live as the woman (or man) they are, without having to be outed through being forced to use the opposite restroom. The people those laws are for want to blend into the existing society; not change it.

Regarding changing society for a few, we do it all the time - and the Church often demands it, on behalf of Catholics. Where I live, Catholics constitute less than 4% of the general population. Yet, we have all kinds of exceptions and accommodations, more than transgender individuals do. By your logic, those accommodations should be removed - I oppose that just as much as I oppose refusing accommodations for transgender individuals.

I appreciate the lengthy response and again no one should be treated in a violent or cruel manner, name calling, attacks, termination etc. That being said, please do not presume I don’t know what the laws say or how they will be manipulated by some just as all laws are being manipulated. Some of these cases have already been litigated. This is not just propaganda from BuzzFeed or the National Enquirer.

Here is my issue with the whole transgender accommodation is that it’s all based on someone’s word until and unless they undergo the surgery and hormone therapy. Understand that it would be very traumatic for a group of girls showering after PE class to have a person with complete mail genitalia walk into the locker room. IOW it seems like all of the accommodation is going one way and all of the children whose brains match their genitals are embarrassed, compromised, traumatized and upset. Why are the rights of someone who simply makes a claim about his/her sexual identity more important than all of the rest of the people who do not want those of the apparent opposite gender in an intimate space?

As to this not happening, I assure you it does, it has and it will probably increase. After laws were passed in one state a grandmother who had her little grandaughter in a public restroom was shocked when what appeared to be a man walking through the door. She said “Excuse me I think you have the wrong bathroom.” The person responded “No I am a woman.” She said the person was CLEARLY male with a beard, large adam’s apple, large and muscular frame although in somewhat female dress. She and her granddaughter were terrified that the man was some kind of pervert who was going to attack them.

You see when it’s all based on someone’s CLAIM rather than appearance, biology, or other objective criteria, then the majority will be suffering to accommodate a few, some of whom probably are not legitimate.

As to your claim that boys won’t pretend to be trans gender, that too has happened as one boy didn’t make it onto a boy’s sports team so he claimed to be a female and thus eligible to play on the girls’ team. Aside from the locker room issues, how is this fair to normal girls who do not have the strength and musculature to compete against other children who are clearly physically males?

And finally science is not perfect so a theory today may be debunked tomorrow. Other than the rare cases where clearly the primary sex characteristics are abnormal or have elements of both sexes, how is it that someone says “I’m a man not a woman” but until and unless the person has the surgery, the hormones, and all of the other manipulation to make the body match the brain, the person is BIOLOGICALLY the sex they were born? If you have to go to the extent of multiple complex surgeries, expensive hormone therapies and other artificial means to create the person your brain thinks you are…isn’t it possible the brain is simply mistaken? It’s just so incredible to me. Hormone therapy alone can make a huge impact. I used to train at a studio that had many professional and competition body builders of both sexes. With all of the hormones and other drugs they took the men became hyper muscular and the women became very masculine right down to their voices getting deep, facial and body hair sprouting and significant personality changes. But in the off season these same female bodybuilders returned to a more female appearance and without all the side effects. Again, the hormones made them look quite male but they were not men.

It’s simply hard to believe. Sorry.

LIsa

 

[JamesCaruso]

Well, I don’t know. I’m not comfortable with the idea that anyone can change sexualities. I can’t tell you how many straight guys I know that I could not ever, in a million years, imagine attracted to men. And to make the argument that someone could “change” from SSAs to OSAs means you have to prove the argument that someone could “change” from OSAs to SSAs. And you cannot use bisexuals as proof for the argument. But I’m not going to pretend to know a guy’s sexuality. I just see a deep aversion to friends with SSAs being a product of super-macho male culture. Maybe that’s a misinterpretation as I don’t experience it day-to-day, but it’s what it appears like. I’ll leave your post to gay & bisexual men to dissect, and they (or even straight men!) are certainly free to dissect mine as well.

To the extent that SSA is a learned condition, and I think it largely is, it can be changed to some degree or other. To the extent that it is an inherited predisposition to the point that a person has no attraction whatsoever to the opposite sex, it would appear that person, if such a person exists, would be faced with a celibate life if he or she were to remain a practicing Catholic. There is no law or rule that merely a slight attraction to the opposite sex precludes a person from a happy married life. It might be that a person with only a slight attraction to the opposite sex might be quite compatible with a person of the opposite sex who feel the same. For one thing, their lives would not be built overly on sexual gratification as so many marriages begin for one or the other parties or both, and that’s like building a marriage on sand IMO.LIfe is not about sexual fulfillment. Married persons can’t always have sex together. Sometimes distance separates them. Sometimes the fire grows dim. Sometimes one party or the other is not very keen on having sex. Sometimes sickness intervenes and halts their sex life. Sometimes, even, a spouse does not want sex at all for whatever reason, forcing celibacy on her husband or vice versa. Any number of things like this can happen, and yet none of these circumstances are justification for unfaithfulness, or even masturbation, to put it bluntly. The secret for the Catholic is discerning the life/vocation that God has for them knowing all their weaknesses and circumstances.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I appreciate the lengthy response and again no one should be treated in a violent or cruel manner, name calling, attacks, termination etc. That being said, please do not presume I don’t know what the laws say or how they will be manipulated by some just as all laws are being manipulated. Some of these cases have already been litigated. This is not just propaganda from BuzzFeed or the National Enquirer.

That a small number will abuse such laws does not invalidate the purpose of a law.

Here is my issue with the whole transgender accommodation is that it’s all based on someone’s word until and unless they undergo the surgery and hormone therapy. Understand that it would be very traumatic for a group of girls showering after PE class to have a person with complete mail genitalia walk into the locker room. IOW it seems like all of the accommodation is going one way and all of the children whose brains match their genitals are embarrassed, compromised, traumatized and upset. Why are the rights of someone who simply makes a claim about his/her sexual identity more important than all of the rest of the people who do not want those of the apparent opposite gender in an intimate space?

You could have the person shower separately; most K-12 places don’t do group showers anymore. The transgender people I known do not feel comfortable in group showers and would gladly take a private shower.

As to this not happening, I assure you it does, it has and it will probably increase. After laws were passed in one state a grandmother who had her little grandaughter in a public restroom was shocked when what appeared to be a man walking through the door. She said “Excuse me I think you have the wrong bathroom.” The person responded “No I am a woman.” She said the person was CLEARLY male with a beard, large adam’s apple, large and muscular frame although in somewhat female dress. She and her granddaughter were terrified that the man was some kind of pervert who was going to attack them.

You see when it’s all based on someone’s CLAIM rather than appearance, biology, or other objective criteria, then the majority will be suffering to accommodate a few, some of whom probably are not legitimate.

I’d be rather dubious of that person’s claim, all transwomen I know very much make sure to not have any facial hair.

As to your claim that boys won’t pretend to be trans gender, that too has happened as one boy didn’t make it onto a boy’s sports team so he claimed to be a female and thus eligible to play on the girls’ team. Aside from the locker room issues, how is this fair to normal girls who do not have the strength and musculature to compete against other children who are clearly physically males?

It seems rather odd that the school wouldn’t require the person to be on beta blockers if prepubescent and have them take anti-androgens.

And finally science is not perfect so a theory today may be debunked tomorrow. Other than the rare cases where clearly the primary sex characteristics are abnormal or have elements of both sexes, how is it that someone says “I’m a man not a woman” but until and unless the person has the surgery, the hormones, and all of the other manipulation to make the body match the brain, the person is BIOLOGICALLY the sex they were born? If you have to go to the extent of multiple complex surgeries, expensive hormone therapies and other artificial means to create the person your brain thinks you are…isn’t it possible the brain is simply mistaken? It’s just so incredible to me. Hormone therapy alone can make a huge impact. I used to train at a studio that had many professional and competition body builders of both sexes. With all of the hormones and other drugs they took the men became hyper muscular and the women became very masculine right down to their voices getting deep, facial and body hair sprouting and significant personality changes. But in the off season these same female bodybuilders returned to a more female appearance and without all the side effects. Again, the hormones made them look quite male but they were not men.

It’s simply hard to believe. Sorry.

LIsa

HRT (both the estrogen and anti-androgen) costs ~$35 a month in the US without insurance for generics which isn’t actually that expensive.

 

[Rin]

I appreciate (…) please do not presume I don’t know what the laws say or how they will be manipulated (…)

The fact that a law might be manipulated, does not mean the law itself is bad; nor does it mean there should be no kind of accommodation whatsoever.

Here is my issue with the whole transgender accommodation is that it’s all based on someone’s word until and unless they undergo the surgery and hormone therapy.

At least hormone therapy is close to 100% indicative of whether the diagnosis is right; cisgender people generally have very adverse reactions to it. Other diagnoses are made purely on the grounds of clinical presentation (ME, depression, ADHD, etc) - yet, few people reject them. In either case, the suffering is very real, and the stigma is very real. I wish people would realize this.

(…) a person with complete mail genitalia walk into the locker room. (…)

I agree the provisions regarding locker rooms are less than ideal. As I said earlier, it has been provoked by previous events where people have been forced to use their birth sex locker room, and experienced horrific crimes as a result.

A much better solution would be to let them use a staff locker room, separated from everyone else. To be honest, I think most TG individuals would prefer this, since flashing genitals generally means being outed…

I have no sympathies with the whiners regarding restrooms, though - the stalls are there for a reason, and there is no nudity.

Anyways, just out of interest: Do you believe TG individuals should be forced to use their birth gender locker room, despite the significant risk of rape and assault? Are you against any kind of accommodation at all?

As to this not happening, I assure you it does, it has and it will probably increase. After laws were passed (…)

I have not heard that story before now, but you should be aware that several of the other stories so far have proved to be hoaxes, if not malevolent lies. One of the more widely reported ones turned out to be exactly that; public harassment of a young trans girl who had done nothing wrong other than entering the girl’s restroom, fully dressed. She was falsely accused of harassment, and publicly humiliated in the media. She ended up on suicide watch. Way to go.

(…) the majority will be suffering to accommodate a few (…)

No, the majority will not be suffering. While we do halfways agree regarding locker rooms, there is no suffering created by TG individuals using their identified restroom. There is no suffering created by not being allowed to fire anyone purely on grounds of gender expression.

We accommodate “a few” all the time, and many of them are indeed not legitimate; faux religions, people pretending to have certain diffuse diagnoses, etc. But refusing to accommodate those groups on the grounds of possible abuse, would create far more suffering than taking that risk.

As to your claim that boys won’t pretend (…)

I still have a hard time believing that given the stigma that entails, but okay. I’m not saying the laws are water proof. Neither are religious freedom laws; yet, we tend to defend them.

Aside from the locker room issues, how is this fair to normal girls(…)

I do have an issue with this pre-HRT. But after a person has been on hormones for a while, the trans woman will become athletically like any other woman. For competitive sports, ideally HRT for a minimum of two to three years should be a requirement. But again, I suspect lack of will to find compromises caused these provisions; if the sport is non-competitive, there should be no reason to refuse a change of teams.

And finally science is not perfect so a theory today may be debunked tomorrow.

Yes, but as there’s not one iota of evidence to expect that, and plenty of evidence to the contrary, I would not hold my breath. Such revolutions are rare.

(…) how is it that someone says (…)

The brain is biological, isn’t it? No one is arguing that the genitals are “really” female in the case of a trans woman (and v.v.). We’re saying we’re not our genitals. We may not be our brains either; but our brains determine far more of our personalities and being than genitals do.

(…) isn’t it possible the brain is simply mistaken?

Well, if genitals are the decisive factor, then the brain indeed is mistaken. But our identities are stored in our brains. Our thoughts, emotions, habits, mannerisms, everything that makes us “us”, is stored in our brains. Additionally, our brains can’t be changed radically enough to alleviate the dysphoria, and such a treatment would probably not be ethical. Genitals, however, can be changed, as can hormones. It is the only working treatment, and while it is drastic, it saves lives.

(…) Hormone therapy alone can make a huge impact.

Actually, in the aforementioned autopsy studies, HRT proved to have no effect on the brain; pre-HRT transsexual brains were also structured like the opposite sex.

(…) Again, the hormones made them look quite male but they were not men.

Well, obviously, they were not transgender. They were steroid abusers. They are irrelevant to this discussion. No one claims hormones make you into the opposite sex; we claim the TG individual already is neurobiologically the opposite gender of his/her birth sex.

It’s simply hard to believe. Sorry.

“Hard to believe” doesn’t equal “not true”. There are plenty of things I find hard to believe, but unless I happen to have a formal education on the subject, I stick to the consensus of those that do. But at least I’m glad that you’re clear on the fact that harassment of TG individuals is wrong.

 

[LisaA]

There are plenty of things I find hard to believe, but unless I happen to have a formal education on the subject, I stick to the consensus of those that do. But at least I’m glad that you’re clear on the fact that harassment of TG individuals is wrong.

Well of course I don’t want anyone to be treated cruelly or harassed or bullied. But again, maybe because you don’t live in America you don’t understand our privacy customs. I know in Europe there are bathrooms that males and females use side by side. Trust me this is NOT going to go over in America. Neither would a locker room with private showers but easy access one to the other. I would NOT want someone with male genitalia next to me in my club’s locker room.

As to the theory that rapes and assaults are common in school locker rooms, Rape is against the law in this country and I imagine yours as well. I just think because this is your issue you are like the nail that thinks everything over your head is a hammer. It’s not. Further the whole scenario is bizarre. A person with male genitalia is in a boy’s locker room. Why would other boys suddenly decide to rape him? I don’t think anyone would look twice at someone with the genitals that match the sign on the door. OTOH someone with the “wrong” set would be a problem.

As to the point of discussing the hormones, again if you “are” a woman inside why do you need hormones and plastic surgery? You see this doesn’t make any sense at all unless in the context of a child born with elements of both sexes. As to brains, we know men’s and women’s brains are very different, so how do you make your brain go from female to male or vice versa? Again why do you need all the hormones if you really are what you think instead of what your body, your chromosomes and your natural hormones make you. I cannot argue with your experience. But it seems to be completely contradictory. This is how I understand your explanation: “I think I am a woman. I have a penis and testicles and body hair and a deep voice. But I am really a woman. So to make my body match who I think I am I will undergo very complicated surgery and hormone therapy.”

I am trying to wrap my head around this, truly I am. It makes NO sense.

As to the theory the woman talking about the male in the bathroom, I don’t mean the person had a beard but that you could see the face had been shaved. Again my point is that because this whole trans scene is self identified, someone in any stage of a sexual reassignment or perhaps not planning a reassignment but just dressing, getting HRT to become male or female in exterior characteristics can march into the bathroom or shower area where they “identify” and thus compromise everyone else. I just do not think that’s fair to the majority. Nor does it make any sense at all. The mind can play games.

BTW I decided to look up the situation with “Chaz” Bono. Chaz was born a girl, named Chastity, came out in her 20s as a Lesbian, got involved with Lesbian causes, wrote for a Lesbian oriented publication and seemed all in on that identity. Then Chastity Bono announced s(he) was really a man inside and started getting HRT, had her breasts removed, and apparently recently announced the plans for a penis to be constructed. Chaz became hugely obese although is losing weight.

Sorry but Chaz/Chastity sounds like one sick puppy to me and as a result of high profile situations like this, it’s hard for me to find every claim of transgenderism (?) is credible. Yours might be but not all of them.

Lisa

 

[Cherry5]

As to the point of discussing the hormones, again if you “are” a woman inside why do you need hormones and plastic surgery? You see this doesn’t make any sense at all unless in the context of a child born with elements of both sexes. As to brains, we know men’s and women’s brains are very different, so how do you make your brain go from female to male or vice versa? Again why do you need all the hormones if you really are what you think instead of what your body, your chromosomes and your natural hormones make you. I cannot argue with your experience. But it seems to be completely contradictory. This is how I understand your explanation: “I think I am a woman. I have a penis and testicles and body hair and a deep voice. But I am really a woman. So to make my body match who I think I am I will undergo very complicated surgery and hormone therapy.”

I am trying to wrap my head around this, truly I am. It makes NO sense.
Lisa

Hello Lisa,
I am hoping that the following article helps you understand some aspects as observed by a professional. I am not going to debate the details.
avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm
Based on your last post there seems to be a glimmer of indication that you want to understand trans people.
One thing that is common with most trans people is they would prefer NOT to be trans. The other is that there is no alternate viable option to treating this condition other than hormones.
Regardless of the cause, trans people need a way to deal with this condition as status quo is not an option after a certain point, it cannot be wished away or ignored.

 

[LisaA]

Hello Lisa,
I am hoping that the following article helps you understand some aspects as observed by a professional. I am not going to debate the details.
avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm
Based on your last post there seems to be a glimmer of indication that you want to understand trans people.
One thing that is common with most trans people is they would prefer NOT to be trans. The other is that there is no alternate viable option to treating this condition other than hormones.
Regardless of the cause, trans people need a way to deal with this condition as status quo is not an option after a certain point, it cannot be wished away or ignored.

Whoa that was reallly small print! OK a couple of thoughts, this article is 10 years old. Is this conclusion still considered valid? Is gender identity considered a mental illness? Is it still in the DSM?

Believe me I do not doubt or question someone’s experience or feelings about a situation. I think a lot of kids have difficulty with identity issues. Some are temporary others not. I mentioned that I was a “tomboy” as a child. I wanted to be a boy, I liked boy’s activities, I was extremely active, I was very strong, I didn’t give a hoot about dolls or girl activities. I hated baths, washing or even combing my hair. Utterly disdained anything female. I’m no longer this way and I don’t know why but it makes me wonder how some children get more fixed in this behavior pattern or way of thinking. Similarly I grew up with a boy who was the youngest with five older sisters. He was called a “sissy boy” as a child and as a teen simply hung around girls. He had no interest in boy activities was EXTREMELY effete. When he grew up he came out as gay and I suppose in hindsight we should have figured that out. Another of our classmates seemed very boyish, loved sports and then went from Greg to Rita having had surgery. I guess my point is how much of this is mental conditioning, affirmation or criticism by outside forces? My concern is that like homosexuality, once it becomes a source of affirmation rather than a challenge, confused children will be pushed in one direction or the other.

The other thing is the issue about genitalia not matching the identity and how these people can function. As a female I absolutely do NOT want to walk into a bathroom or a locker room and see someone with male genitalia in the next stall or shower. Even more distressing is the idea that this will happen to young people. They have enough pressure without having to deal with opposite sex people in the locker room. I just don’t understand why someone with male genitalia doesn’t want to be in a boys’ bathroom. I truly don’t believe they are all going to be raped. If they are shy or embarrassed, there are ways of accommodating them. It seems a lot less of an issue than having what appears to be males in a girl’s locker room. I just remember how shy we were with our developing bodies, some girls who were well endowed, others who were still flat chested at age 15. It’s life. All children should be taught to treat everyone politely and respectfully. I think that makes a lot more sense than demanding special bathrooms or locker rooms or simply taking the word of someone if they are a boy or a girl. The issue with the boy who decided to be on the girl’s sports team was NOT a child with gender identity issues but apparently simply a desire to play team sports and a failure to make it on the boys’ team. Again it just doesn’t seem to be a just response.

Anyway thank you for the information. I certainly was unaware of this research.

Lisa

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Well of course I don’t want anyone to be treated cruelly or harassed or bullied. But again, maybe because you don’t live in America you don’t understand our privacy customs. I know in Europe there are bathrooms that males and females use side by side. Trust me this is NOT going to go over in America. Neither would a locker room with private showers but easy access one to the other. I would NOT want someone with male genitalia next to me in my club’s locker room.

Actually in American universities it is going over fine, even in places without shower partitions

As to the theory that rapes and assaults are common in school locker rooms, Rape is against the law in this country and I imagine yours as well. I just think because this is your issue you are like the nail that thinks everything over your head is a hammer. It’s not. Further the whole scenario is bizarre. A person with male genitalia is in a boy’s locker room. Why would other boys suddenly decide to rape him? I don’t think anyone would look twice at someone with the genitals that match the sign on the door. OTOH someone with the “wrong” set would be a problem.

Rape being illegal didn’t prevent me from getting raped, the other 1 in 8 girls who are raped by the end of high school or the 1 in 22 boys who are raped by the end of high school.

Rape is about power, some boys would do it to show dominance.

As to the point of discussing the hormones, again if you “are” a woman inside why do you need hormones and plastic surgery? You see this doesn’t make any sense at all unless in the context of a child born with elements of both sexes. As to brains, we know men’s and women’s brains are very different, so how do you make your brain go from female to male or vice versa? Again why do you need all the hormones if you really are what you think instead of what your body, your chromosomes and your natural hormones make you. I cannot argue with your experience. But it seems to be completely contradictory. This is how I understand your explanation: “I think I am a woman. I have a penis and testicles and body hair and a deep voice. But I am really a woman. So to make my body match who I think I am I will undergo very complicated surgery and hormone therapy.”

So people like you would treat them as a woman? So they look like a woman in addition to being one on the inside?

Transwomen have been shown to have brains that are far more like that of women than men and mutatis mutandis for transmen.

I am trying to wrap my head around this, truly I am. It makes NO sense.

Considering the amount of things you say that are totally wrong about transgender people it is clear you don’t understand the condition.

As to the theory the woman talking about the male in the bathroom, I don’t mean the person had a beard but that you could see the face had been shaved. Again my point is that because this whole trans scene is self identified, someone in any stage of a sexual reassignment or perhaps not planning a reassignment but just dressing, getting HRT to become male or female in exterior characteristics can march into the bathroom or shower area where they “identify” and thus compromise everyone else. I just do not think that’s fair to the majority. Nor does it make any sense at all. The mind can play games.

I’m a woman and due to hirsuitism I have to shave my face, having to shave doesn’t make me not a woman.

How does it compromise everyone else?

 

[Rin]

(…)maybe because you don’t live in America you don’t understand our privacy customs.

While wrapping my head around American culture and customs can be difficult (don’t take this as an offense, but American culture does seem very immature at times), I think I understand it fairly well. Spending around one and a half month in the less populated areas of Kentucky, living with a local family, helped. It was a complete shock, but very educating.

That said, the people I met there were also among the most hospitable, kind, sweet people I’ve ever met; there’s much to love about American culture. But that’s not the subject now.

I know in Europe there are bathrooms that males and females use side by side. Trust me this (…)

There are no such restrooms or locker rooms that I know of in my country, nor have I encountered them in any other country I’ve visited in Europe. There are handicap toilets that allow both genders, but only one at a time.

I would NOT want someone with male genitalia next to me in my club’s locker room.

Again, as I said, I do to some extent agree with you regarding locker rooms. I have yet to speak to another TG individual with male genitalia wanting to use the women’s locker room, either. But in restrooms, where you won’t see genitalia no matter their layout, I’m sorry to tell you the very real danger caused by forcing trans women to use the men’s restroom trumps your sensitivities.

As to the theory that rapes and assaults are common in school locker rooms, Rape is against the law in this country and I imagine yours as well.

Yet, as Joie pointed out, rape happens. Believing that rape won’t happen because it’s illegal is wishful thinking.

I just think because this is your issue you are like the nail that thinks everything over your head is a hammer. It’s not.

If you believe the violence against transgender people is an illusion, please visit this site:

transgenderdor.org/memorializing-2013

This site lists only murders, and since the police in most places (including the USA) doesn’t yet record crime against TG individuals as hate crime, the list is probably much longer; we only know about the cases where media or families happen to report the details.

The danger of violence toward us is very real, and the States is one of the more dangerous countries to live in as a TG person. I would definitely not use a men’s restroom there.

Further the whole scenario is bizarre. (…) Why would other boys suddenly decide to rape him?

It is indeed bizarre, but it still happens - too often. The list of motivations is long; some people have a trans fetish, but they rarely commit rape. More often, the reason seems to be hate and the need for power; trans women for some reason seem to intimidate cis men, perhaps we challenge their masculinity? I don’t know. But sexual attraction is actually rarely the reason for any kind of rape; the majority are simply psychopaths who like the power trip.

I don’t think anyone would look twice at someone with the genitals that match the sign on the door. OTOH someone with the “wrong” set would be a problem.

You see, the genitals are rarely what you look at when you see others in the restroom. What you see are the clothes. The breasts. If such a person uses the men’s room, even if the person otherwise passes completely, people will immediately understand why the woman is in the wrong restroom. And that sadly leads to disaster more often than you’re willing to admit.

As to the point of discussing the hormones, again if you “are” a woman inside why do you need hormones and plastic surgery?

We need estrogen for the same reason you do; our brains are hardwired to expect the body to produce it. If you tried testosterone treatment, you (unless you were trans) would experience immensely adverse psychological reactions. That is what happens to us during puberty. The main reason for HRT is actually psychological; it is the best drug there is to treat mental turmoil in transgender patients.

(…)As to brains, we know men’s and women’s brains are very different, so how do you make your brain go from female to male or vice versa?

You’re missing the mark again. We don’t make our brains go from female to male or vice versa. That is impossible. This is why we are treated with hormones and surgery. Our brains are already female. This is what causes the dysphoria, and why we need hormones, just as much as you need them - you’re just lucky enough that your body produces the right ones.

I cannot argue with your experience. But it seems to be completely contradictory. This is how I understand your explanation: (…)

Add “The hormones naturally produced by my body is torture for my brain”, and you’re getting closer.

I am trying to wrap my head around this, truly I am. It makes NO sense.

I appreciate (and believe) the fact that you’re trying to understand. But you’re still missing what brain-body dysphoria really is, and its consequences.

Try to think of it like this: Now let’s say brain transplants became possible. You were found after an accident, so mangled that your sex was indeterminable, and your brain was accidentally transplanted into a male donor body. Now that donor body produces testosterone, making your libido go haywire, grow a beard, speak with a deep voice, etc. etc. How would you feel?

(…) Sorry but Chaz/Chastity (…) Yours might be but not all of them.

I appreciate your wish to understand me, I really do. I have no opinion regarding Chaz, but then I generally refuse to make an opinion about others. And from my experience, my story is very similar to other transgender people I meet - I am not an exception.

 

[Rin]

Cherry: Thank you for posting that study.

(…) this article is 10 years old. Is this conclusion still considered valid? Is gender identity considered a mental illness? Is it still in the DSM?

I think that article still is sound, as a matter of fact the recommendation of replacing Gender Identity Disorder with Gender Expression Deprivation Anxiety Disorder has to some extent happened, except the name, which is too complicated.

The new DSM now has “gender dysphoria”, which defines the identity as a natural variation, but sees the dysphoria as a condition naturally arising when someone’s gender identity severely clashes with the body. This is in line with scientific development over the last ten years; the brain differentiation in utero hypothesis has been strengthened to the point of being universally accepted by health professionals who specialize in gender identity, and hence there is no longer a reason to see gender identity as a mental illness. Gender dysphoria then is what entitles a person to gender-confirming medical treatment.

Believe me I do not doubt or question someone’s experience or feelings about a situation. I think a lot of kids (…) makes me wonder how some children get more fixed in this behavior pattern or way of thinking.

There is a difference between tomboys and trans men; the tomboy brain doesn’t expect testosterone. When puberty sets in, there is no dysphoria. For a trans man, estrogen is torture, just like testosterone is to me.

Believe me, I had no exposure to any of this as a child. But yet, the pattern is fixed. As the autopsy studies indicate, it is neurobiological, and can’t be changed.

Similarly I grew up with (…) My concern (…) confused children will be pushed in one direction or the other.

Experience says they won’t. The majority of children who receive guidance and treatment from gender clinics, end up satisfied with their birth sex. They were tomboys or effeminate boys, not transgender.

Among the few who go on to puberty delaying drugs and/or HRT, the identity seems to be fixed; nothing can change it. There is nothing to indicate a child can be pushed into wanting gender transition (or that any health professional would want this), so I don’t share those fears.

The other thing is the issue about genitalia not matching the identity and how these people can function.

If you mean sexually, then with the most common surgical techniques, the body seems to actually understand what happens, and repurpose the tissue used to construct a vagina - after a few years, even a gynecologist often can’t see the difference. I could go into further detail, but I suspect that would break forum rules.

That said, while the Church acknowledges the legitimacy of sex reassignment in severe cases of dysphoria, we are also seen as castrated and hence not eligible for marriage. Which obviously means we’re expected to stay celibate. This may change in the future when growing opposite organs from (non-embryonic) stem cells could become possible, but as of today, it is what it is.

As a female I absolutely do NOT want to walk into a bathroom or a locker room and see someone with male genitalia in the next stall or shower.

Again, I can understand the shower part. With regards to stalls, I’d probably tell you to mind your own business

Even more distressing is the idea that this will happen to young people. They have enough pressure without having to deal with opposite sex people in the locker room.

Except the shower case, I’m not sure you’re right. The outrage I’ve seen seems to primarily come from parents, not teens.

I just don’t understand why someone with male genitalia doesn’t want to be in a boys’ bathroom.

You really can’t understand why someone who looks like a female (including breasts), acts like a female, dresses like a female and even smells like a female doesn’t want to be in a boy’s bathroom?

I truly don’t believe they are all going to be raped.

I never said they all will be raped. But the danger is significant, and by refusing to see the problem, you are contributing to it - no matter your sincerity and good will.

If they are shy or embarrassed, there are ways of accommodating them. It seems a lot less of an issue than having what appears to be males in a girl’s locker room.

Regarding locker rooms, the way to accommodate them is to let them use the staff facilities - they probably won’t want to use the girls’ locker room anyways. Regarding restrooms, I truly can’t see the problem. The majority of these individuals don’t even look like boys, and genitals are generally not inspected upon entrance to the restroom…

I just remember how shy we were with our developing bodies (…) All children should be taught to treat everyone politely and respectfully. (…)

Wishful thinking. Kids will remain kids, and kids are cruel. Boys will remain boys, and some boys are violent rapists. What’s really the harm of letting them use the staff locker room?

The issue with the boy who decided to be on the girl’s sports team was NOT a child with gender identity issues (…)

In that case, the boy is obviously not protected by this law, since gender identity issues is a requirement to claim those rights.

I would have no problems with adding an extra clause requiring a letter from a health professional to confirm the issues. I also have no problems with the measures some schools in California are taking, like allowing only one transition; you can’t switch back and forth. Those are examples of reasonable compromise. But refusing to make any accommodation at all is either a result of fear, or putting ideology above reality.

 

[LisaA]

Thanks for all of the explanation. I still seem to not be explaining my understanding very well so in short since the thread is somewhat derailed at this point:

I do not have an issue with someone who’s been establshed by a competent mental health professional to have a severe gender identity problem and has or is undergoing the necessary surgery/HRT using the facilities of their “assigned” sex.

What I DO have a problem with is in the rush to be “tolerant” of a few people with severe mental health issues, the rules are so lax that literally one can wake up one morning an decide they are a boy or a girl and use what is the opposite sex bathroom/locker room based only on their word. I think that is ridiculous but in our obsession to be PC, we simply “cannot” question someone who’s gender is “fluid…questioning…etc”

I suggest your statistic that one out of eight women has been raped is a function of how rape is defined. The kind of violent act that defines rape in the minds of the majority of people is not what is meant with that sort of statistic. It’s very easy to manipulate statistics and make something sound outrageous. Further the idea that heterosexual males are raping other males sounds WAY out in left field. Heterosexual males are suddenly going to engage in something so repulisive, so against their entire being just to abuse some poor transgender kid? It makes no sense at all. Homosexual activity is simply not something one engages in, on the spur of the moment. Further the school locker room with monitors and open areas would make this type of incident extremely rare. I would in fact suspect far more teen girls are assaulted at school than transgender children of either sex.

Again whoever is facing this issue who has a truly serious problem has my sympathy. It seems like a particularly difficult cross to bear. But I still feel that the accommodation issue has to be approached in a reasonable, rational and consistent fashion. The current “I’m a boy today and a girl tomorrow and don’t you question me!!” manipulation will derail sympathy for the real cases of this disorder (hopefully that word isn’t considered pejorative)

Lisa

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Thanks for all of the explanation. I still seem to not be explaining my understanding very well so in short since the thread is somewhat derailed at this point:

I think if you finally understand then Rin would have found it worth the effort

I do not have an issue with someone who’s been establshed by a competent mental health professional to have a severe gender identity problem and has or is undergoing the necessary surgery/HRT using the facilities of their “assigned” sex.

That’s mostly what transgender people are asking for.

What I DO have a problem with is in the rush to be “tolerant” of a few people with severe mental health issues, the rules are so lax that literally one can wake up one morning an decide they are a boy or a girl and use what is the opposite sex bathroom/locker room based only on their word. I think that is ridiculous but in our obsession to be PC, we simply “cannot” question someone who’s gender is “fluid…questioning…etc”

Transgender people are fine with some gatekeeping such as psychologist visits to verify it. Transgender people really only seek to use the restroom of their gender when presenting as such.

I suggest your statistic that one out of eight women has been raped is a function of how rape is defined. The kind of violent act that defines rape in the minds of the majority of people is not what is meant with that sort of statistic. It’s very easy to manipulate statistics and make something sound outrageous. Further the idea that heterosexual males are raping other males sounds WAY out in left field. Heterosexual males are suddenly going to engage in something so repulisive, so against their entire being just to abuse some poor transgender kid? It makes no sense at all. Homosexual activity is simply not something one engages in, on the spur of the moment. Further the school locker room with monitors and open areas would make this type of incident extremely rare. I would in fact suspect far more teen girls are assaulted at school than transgender children of either sex.

Is being coerced to engage in sex not sufficiently rapey for you?

The mouths and anuses of males and females are rather similar. Rape isn’t about sex, it’s about power, dominance, degrading the other person, control.

In terms of absolute numbers teenage girls are definitely assaulted more which is due to the fact that transgender isn’t that common, indeed if all of them were raped that’d still be less in absolute numbers than girls. In terms of percent I don’t know due to the difficulty in collecting statistics.

Again whoever is facing this issue who has a truly serious problem has my sympathy. It seems like a particularly difficult cross to bear. But I still feel that the accommodation issue has to be approached in a reasonable, rational and consistent fashion. The current “I’m a boy today and a girl tomorrow and don’t you question me!!” manipulation will derail sympathy for the real cases of this disorder (hopefully that word isn’t considered pejorative)

Lisa

That’s why you have psychologists functioning as gatekeepers.

 

[JamesCaruso]

I’m sorry, but most of what you say is wrong. Your understanding of how gender identity is formed is lacking, as is your understanding of transgenderism, and the laws you refer to.

But I’m tired of debunking the same, rehashed myths and preconceptions over and over and over again. I’m tired of fighting ignorance where there is no will to learn. So I’ll refrain. But I do encourage you to search for unbiased information, especially regarding how gender is determined. The XX/XY model is insufficient, and except “conservative” Catholics and radical feminists, no one adheres to it anymore.

I also encourage everyone to realize you’re not in a private setting; everything here is public and colors off on the Church. Some of what is written against transgender individuals here feels like a blow to the stomach; it is my prayer that no transgender person in danger of suicide finds this place. Or any such person at all, near-suicidal or not; were I not already in love with the real Holy Roman Church, encountering CAF would probably have put me off before even getting that chance. I pray that this doesn’t happen to anyone, but I fear it does.

What, then, does the Church teach with regards to transgender? Not your opinion, but what does the Church itself teach so that we can mitigate any damage done by these discussions. If you know, I earnestly would like to hear it. With all good will.

 

[JamesCaruso]

I wouldn’t use the word “learned” so much as programmed. It is clear the mind can become programmed by a repetition of stimulus/response until the pathway is so entrenched, like hardened ruts in a dirt road, are very difficult to overcome. This is why most if not all psychiatrists claim that someone who abuses children sexually cannot ‘deprogram’ and have a normal sexual response to an adult. This proved tragic when such offenders are released after incarceration or “treatment” only to offend again.

As to same sex attraction, having seen the way young males are wooed and lured by older homosexuals, I believe that they learn via this stimulus response, particularly at a time when their brains are forming and they are inculcating certain values and experiences.

I don’t think sexual orientation is fixed at birth or even puberty. Too many move in and out of both worlds, some leave and stay permanently, some experiment and reject this lifestyle. If the person lives as a heterosexual and says they are no longer engaged in homosexual activity, I will accept their attestation unless there is evidence to the contrary. The power of sexual attraction is incredible. How many of us have seen an adulterous affair break up a marriage where the offending partner leaves behind his/her family, maybe his/her career, home, associations, all for sex. It’s a powerful obsession but not a magnificent one.

Lisa

:thumbsup:Well said.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

What, then, does the Church teach with regards to transgender? Not your opinion, but what does the Church itself teach so that we can mitigate any damage done by these discussions. If you know, I earnestly would like to hear it. With all good will.

AFAIK the Church hasn’t officially taught on it at all. As far as whether HRT could be morally accepted the answer is yes it could as it does indeed appear to be therapeutically invaluable for the mental health of many transgender people.

 

[JamesCaruso]

I was indeed wrong - sex ambiguity of some kind or another (counting mild cases) occurs in 1 out of 100 children, so it’s more common than I thought:

isna.org/faq/frequency

---

I think I’ve already addressed most of this while my keyboard carried me away, but no, you do not accept biology. You reject biology. Period.

Edit: In addition, there is nothing in Genesis which contradicts the possibility of transgenderism. Transgender individuals generally fully identify with one gender; we’re the opposite of deconstructionists. Which is why we’re just as hated by radical feminists as by “conservative” Christians.

This is an interesting discussion.

Is it possible that a man (all the outward appearances) can “feel” like a woman feels, but nevertheless be a man? For example, I see something cute that an child does and I feel “Oh! Isn’t that darling!” but being a man, I mask that feeling by expressing, “That’s cute.” I am feeling, I think, exactly like a woman feels, but I go to the trouble of expressing it as a stereotype man would in order not to appear feminine.

We all have both masculine and feminine traits. Some men are pretty and some women are handsome. Some men feel all kinds of soft and tender emotions and some women feel all kinds of strong and assertive feelings. So what is transgender? If all my feelings are feminine, does that make me a woman in your view? Or do I have to definitely believe I am a woman trapped in a man’s body?

Why is it considered a torture for a man to have feminine feelings? Why can’t he learn to express those feeling in a more acceptable form for the sake of blending in? Is self expression so awfully important? Or if he is courageous, why can’t he simply express his feelings as they are, no apologies?

Would not such a person, say, a man, seek out someone trustworthy to share those feelings, like for instance, a sympathetic woman? Could not writing poetry be a way for a man to express feminine feelings. I love poetry, by the way, so don’t get me wrong. I don’t see the appropriateness of surgery to align a man’s feelings with his body. I don’t believe it is a right to be able to express one’s feelings in line with their sexual function. It may be a mismatch, but I am sure there is the right partner for that situation.

Rather than transgender, I prefer, in the case of a man, to think of it as a man with feminine feelings, much more pronounced, maybe even totally so, than the average man, who also may have some feminine feelings and qualities. Do you find this perspective on it to be entirely unacceptable, and if so, please, why?

I know this is the “me” generation, but isn’t there some wisdom in such cases in simply accepting what is. To me, a man with feminine feelings is not the most horrible prospect in the world, and I do not assume a person who expresses himself in a feminine manner to be effeminate in any bad sense nor homosexual. I would suggest that person try to cultivate masculine feelings, if that is possible, and to at least, express himself in a more masculine manner if acceptance is critical to his comfort.

I don’t know of any commandment that says, "Thou shalt feel like a man (or vice versa)! " Acceptance of oneself might well be the only course of action wise and necessary. I would wholly reject surgery to change an undeniably male body into the semblance of a female body in order to match inner feelings with outward appearances. To me there is something sacred about the bodies that God gave us, unless they are obviously malformed as in the case of someone having both male and female organs.

A man with feminine feelings who has his body changed to be like a woman, is a man with a women’s body and feminine feelings, not a woman. Only God can create a woman, or at least, that’s my belief. So how do you respond to these thoughts? Is there any agreement at all between us? I hope so. I don’t mean to be disrespectful or condescending.

I have a good friend, a male, who claims he is transgender, and at different periods has dressed as a woman. He also has seriously considered a sex change operation. We have had lengthy conversations in the past, and are still friends, though we do not appear to think alike on this subject. He acts and talks as any man would in conversation. .

 

[JamesCaruso]

AFAIK the Church hasn’t officially taught on it at all. As far as whether HRT could be morally accepted the answer is yes it could as it does indeed appear to be therapeutically invaluable for the mental health of many transgender people.

Maybe this Pope with his tendency to deal with the people and their real life problems down at their level will finally address this area. I have no doubt he could manage the task. I would not even be surprised if he reads the Catholic Answers Forum. What would impress him more than people actually looking for the truth?

 

[Rin]

Lisa: While we differ on our interpretation of those laws and their effects, the amount of people who “pretend” and so on, I think we’re starting to reach a sort-of understanding. I want to thank you for your willingness to have an honest debate; I have to admit I misjudged you by your first comments. I apologize. There are still things I’d like to comment on, but as I’m on an extended weekend trip, I might not get the time.

James: Regarding what the Church teaches, Joie is right. There is also a policy (not doctrinal) document which has been discussed in other threads - as I mentioned I’m on vacation and dont have time to look the relevant posts up now, but I’ll see if I can’t find them later.

Regarding your questions about effeminacy and so on: Yes, there are effeminate men, who clearly are men. But those men, no matter how feminine they are, react adversely to estrogen. Trans women react positively; their brains seem to be hardwired to expect estrogen instead of testosterone. Whether or not you recognize them as women is your decision (though I hope you treat them with the respect they deserve, including using the pronouns they identify with etc), but hormone treatment is really the only thing that can alleviate the pain resulting from the condition. I think our brains tell us more about who we are, than any other parts of the body.

But my primary goal is not to get everyone to agree with me; it is to make them understand what we go through, that our condition is real (whatever its implications) and that transition through hormones and in some cases surgery is often the only choice; it means life or death, in many cases.

 

[SMGS127]

What, then, does the Church teach with regards to transgender? Not your opinion, but what does the Church itself teach so that we can mitigate any damage done by these discussions. If you know, I earnestly would like to hear it. With all good will.

ncronline.org/news/vatican-says-sex-change-operation-does-not-change-persons-gender

Yes, I realize the link source is oftentimes heterodox, but if you scroll to the bottom, you’ll see the article was originally written by CNS, which is orthodox.

This is the only official policy in the Church, and it is only binding on bishops as a sub secretum document. It says that, in rare cases where there is a medical probability that surgery can cure someone’s “internal turmoil,” surgery can be morally licit. Interestingly, it says nothing at all about HRT, but I guess that is not really an issue a bishop would deal with. Also, post-operative transgender individuals currently cannot have their baptismal certificates changed (though a notation can be made) or enter into a Church vocation that requires a Sacrament of Vocation. Also, an operation is not viewed as changing one’s sex.

Unfortunately, I think many in the Church, even high-up, confuse transsexuality (a person has an innate sense of themselves for their entire conscious lives as one gender; that gender does not match their genitalia) with genderqueer/gender spectrum theory, which argues that one has a “fluidity” to their gender and that there is no gender binary. Transsexuality can be compatible with the Church. Gender spectrum theory absolutely cannot.

Also, considering that genitalia determination occurs after one’s gender is given by God (as gender is a permanent concept, present from the moment of ensoulment at conception), and that soon, parents will be able to decide pre-natally what genitalia their children have, I don’t see how a policy that focuses on genitalia as the determination of gender can even be compatible with Church teaching. You’d either have to argue that parents can change the gender of their children (they can’t) or that ensoulment happens when genitalia are differentiated (it doesn’t). This is, of course, not to say that one’s identity should be the deciding factor on one’s gender. I take no position on how one’s gender should be theologically determined. I just don’t see how genitalia can be used as such in a fallen world stained by birth defects from original sin.

 

[JamesCaruso]

I don’t know anyone in my field (mental health) who ever believed that homosexuality was solely attributable to biological factors. THat would be pretty odd as almost nothing in the psycho-social realm is- including heterosexuality.

Homosexuality, like nearly every other psychological schemata is the effect of bio-psycho-social factors formed over a lifetime.

That being said being gay is not a “choice”. It is not something people fall into due to peer pressure. It is a deep seating and fixed orientation.

I think it would be safe to say that choices are made along the path to being gay, if by being gay you mean living a gay lifestyle, and even if you mean getting to the state in which one’s only attraction is same sex. So, it may not be a single choice, but it may be a number of factors combined with how a person chooses to respond to those factors. We are not automatons who are formed by external influences. We play an active part in determining the effect of those influences.