Being gay is in your genes

[ExCatholicGuy]

The only biological birth defect that I am aware of can cause a person to “sin” is severe mental retardation, and even then it isn’t a sin because they were born without reason.

All other defects are of the psychologic variety, notwithstanding non conclusive “scientific” studies.

What conclusive study do you base that assertion on?

 

[Rau]

Look I am not any kind of champion for reparative therapy nor do I know how this differs from other counseling or other therapies for those with SSA…
People should be free to seek treatment for whatever and be supported in their efforts to live happy healthy lives.

By all means - I agree. But the offering of therapies by paid persons needs to be subject to some controls by relevant authorities to protect the patients who are vulnerable to being conned. If the weight of medical opinion is that certain therapies rarely if ever work, or are believed to be harmful too often, then there is an argument that those therapies ought not to be offered.

 

[Rau]

…Now, it is well known that many children do experiment with this behavior in the process of sexual development in the journey to discovering themselves sexually, but in most kids (heterosexual kids) this passes quickly and they grow to a normal heterosexual adulthood.

Thanks for the common sense. We’ve seen quoted on this thread the statement that most people with SSA had it only temporarily and have gone back to heterosexuality. One wonders how many teenage boys who had an encounter with another boy in a bedroom with a couple of dirty magazines are being labelled as once having had SSA?

 

[Rin]

Thanks for the common sense. We’ve seen quoted on this thread the statement that most people with SSA had it only temporarily and have gone back to heterosexuality. One wonders how many teenage boys who had an encounter with another boy in a bedroom with a couple of dirty magazines are being labelled as once having had SSA?

Indeed. It’s like saying “there are more ex-ME sufferers than ME sufferers in the world”, because you count anyone that ever had a bout of fatigue as an “ex-ME sufferer”… Deeply flawed logic.

Edit: I’m of course not saying that ME is innate/congenital, nor that it’s impossible to heal or shares any other attribute with being gay. I’m just pointing out a flaw in how people make and read statistics.

 

[Rau]

Sex is formed by one’s chromosomes, and is made evident in one’s physical body. Gender is a grammatical property of certain languages that is not properly applicable to biology.

Our sex is written in our bones. Every human skeleton ever found has been either male or female. Nobody has ever found a transgender skeleton. An individual’s sex is a physical reality which - outside of certain disorders which are only slightly more common than having a functional tail - is immediately apparent on a cursory examination of the body. If an individual believes they are something other than what their body shows, then that doesn’t mean they are anything but a mentally ill man or woman. If I believe with every fiber of my being that I am an ostrich - in spite of the evidence of my body - am I now a transspecies ostrich?

There are no structures in the brain which are exclusive to men or women.

Finally, from a Catholic point of view, Genesis states, “Male and female He created them”. Not, “Male and female and cismale and cisfemale and transmale and transfemale and cisbadger and transwallaby…”

Nothing does more damage to an ill person than telling them that they are not ill.

The ignorance of medical science in this area - revealed in the post above - is breathtaking. Is the poster even aware that not every individual is born XX or XY?

Whoever said that the transgendered individual - outwardly Male (say) but genuinely convinced they are in some other sense not Male - is well, healthy and normal? Who has ever suggested that? Clearly there is a grave problem. Medical Science has absolutely no clue how to treat that condition as a “mental illness” or as a defect of brain formation. Experience however has found that changing the body has given relief to the dreadful dissonance these people experience. I believe the Church has even agreed such procedures are acceptable in extreme cases.

 

[Rau]

This is what gender dysphoria is about. Not “preferences”. Not “pop culture”. It is a living hell, and I am sickened by the attitudes I see among some Catholics. It’s not just a lack of compassion - what I see is straight out anti-compassion. Shame on you.

Your sentiment is understandable. I am sure Catholics are not unique in the failure of compassion to which you refer. But we should know better and God will surely hold us especially culpable.

 

[Rin]

Your sentiment is understandable. I am sure Catholics are not unique in the failure of compassion to which you refer. But we should know better and God will surely hold us especially culpable.

Thank you for understanding.

Catholics are absolutely not unique in this regard; on the contrary, most real-life Catholics I know and have met are compassionate, understanding and loving. In my daily life, I fear certain groups of Protestants, not to speak of irreligious people who are also bigots (who generally happen to be the physically violent ones), more. I find “Internet Catholicism” quite different from real Catholicism - something that can not be dismissed by saying offline Catholics are liberals; I live in a very conservative diocese.

And I agree, we should know better, and God will hold us especially culpable. That goes for me too; I was autophobic in my past, and may have said bad and hurtful things about trans people. I repent for that regularly. At least my gut reaction was to avoid the subject, rather than lash out; I only lashed out if people forced the subject. But that is still no excuse. I probably sin against charity on other areas, too; we all do. But still, nothing makes me more angry than sin against charity, and it is the one sin I feel obliged to speak (harshly) out against, since that was really one of the few sins which brought Our Lord on a tangent, too. In addition to the temple profit thing.
Interestingly, Our Lord could possibly be seen as uncharitable toward the Pharisees - after all, they were often sincere (as evidenced by multiple events in the Gospels!), and wanted the best for their people. But they cared more about society than individuals. I think that is something we all do, from time to time. But we shouldn't, and I think it is a particularly tempting sin, now that society is changing faster than most of us (including me) would like. I'm not saying we shouldn't care about society, but our first and most important calling is to bring sinners to Christ. We can't do that if the world sees us as uncharitable and anti-compassionate. And that is, sadly, an all to common and very mistaken belief these days, in part caused by anti-catholic propaganda, but sadly, in part caused by Catholics. It saddens me.

 

[Rau]

Stop trying to force your personal, non-doctrinal beliefs on others just because you personally don’t like others’ beliefs. ** It is absolutely, 100%, completely okay for someone to believe their SSAs are innate and be a practicing Catholic.** Any statement to the contrary is false, period.

I was going to counsel you to be aware that our friend Catolico, who reminds us regularly that no position he holds is contradicted by the CC, holds many positions that are of his own invention. But I see that you already know that

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Where you lose me is in this idea that God creates a person and “decides” what sexual orientation to bestow. Do you also believe he decides to make this person blind, this person autistic, this person unusually tall, etc. etc. Why must there be a reason - attributed to God - for all things? Why did God make so many want to masturbate in their youth - are there just the same two options as you outlined above, that is: (1) he must want them to OR (2) he is sadistic.

Based on my own struggles with personal issues I would have to say yes He does make this person attracted to the same sex and that person blind and etc. These, like external sufferings, are used to bring us closer to Him. As for being sadistic, that would only apply if He set us up to fail. We know that is not the case.

 

[Rau]

Based on my own struggles with personal issues I would have to say yes He does make this person attracted to the same sex and that person blind and etc. These, like external sufferings, are used to bring us closer to Him. As for being sadistic, that would only apply if He set us up to fail. We know that is not the case.

God “allows”. Perhaps, philosophically, that is very similar to what you have expressed, but not quite the same.

Of course, you know I was pointing out the flaw in the argument of the other poster who suggested God either wants SSA persons to act homosexually OR else God is sadistic. And as you point out, God allowing (or causing) SSA in a person does not compel sin or a separation from God.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

With all due respect your insinuation that my commentaries “could” be heresy are projecting, baseless and uncharitable. To set the record straight, I will not disagree with CC dogma nor doctrine nor the Bible. I recommend you research the aforementioned so that you can understand my position. Start with the Old Testament.

I did not imply, at all, that your position was heresy. I said:

What I wouldn’t understand is someone saying that the desire to steal is natural, and yet same-sex attraction is unnatural. Once you say that, you are baptizing certain sinful temptations in the waters of purity, and denying other temptations those same waters. That sounds like heresy to me.

I have not, at any point, heard you say that the desire to steal is natural, but same-sex attraction is unnatural. So the above quote was not a swipe at you. Until proven otherwise, I assume that you believe that the desire to steal and SSA are both natural in one sense (natural to our fallen condition), but unnatural in another (not ultimately reconcilable with human good).

I do admit this: I am trying to help you clarify, in your own heart, your position. Because I don’t understand the basis for your position.

Perhaps I am wrong. If so, please explain to me my error.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Of course, you know I was pointing out the flaw in the argument of the other poster who suggested God either wants SSA persons to act homosexually OR else God is sadistic. And as you point out, God allowing (or causing) SSA in a person does not compel sin or a separation from God.

No, I didn’t know that was what you were doing. That’s what I get for not reading the comment you commented on. :blush:Sorry.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

The ignorance of medical science in this area - revealed in the post above - is breathtaking. Is the poster even aware that not every individual is born XX or XY?

Whoever said that the transgendered individual - outwardly Male (say) but genuinely convinced they are in some other sense not Male - is well, healthy and normal? Who has ever suggested that? Clearly there is a grave problem. Medical Science has absolutely no clue how to treat that condition as a “mental illness” or as a defect of brain formation. Experience however has found that changing the body has given relief to the dreadful dissonance these people experience. I believe the Church has even agreed such procedures are acceptable in extreme cases.

It’s worth remembering here, that when doctors give birth to babies with ambiguous genitalia, they make a decision and surgically do what’s necessary to assign the child a clear sex. This sex sometimes does not correspond with the chromosomal structure, nor the brain chemistry of the child (which the doctor usually does not research). So it is a small wonder that, in these cases at least, people grow up and feel alienated from their own assigned gender.

In such cases, a “man” (for instance) adopting the role of the “opposite” gender is not “pretending to be a woman”. “He” actually is female, despite the way that he has been pigeonholed psychosocially into the category “male”.

It’s perfectly understandable to want children in our society to have more guidance about how to attain gender ideals – how to be a good man or woman – instead of being told that they can be whatever gender they want to. But there are genuine cases of biological sexual dissonance, and we need to respect the people who are subject to them.

 

[Rau]

It’s worth remembering here, that when doctors give birth to babies with ambiguous genitalia, they make a decision and surgically do what’s necessary to assign the child a clear sex. This sex sometimes does not correspond with the chromosomal structure, nor the brain chemistry of the child (which the doctor usually does not research). So it is a small wonder that, in these cases at least, people grow up and feel alienated from their own assigned gender.

I’m not sure this happens so much these days. I believe that the proportion of gender dysphoria cases attributable to medical intervention is minimal.

 

[Catolico65]

SSA doesn’t cause people to sin.

SSA is not natural nor ordained by God.

 

[Catolico65]

Is this the full extent of you involvement with homosexuality? If so, I now understand why you would stress that:

• Most people with SSA revert to heterosexuality;
• God willingly cures the problem if asked;

But I am left wondering whether:

• Your experience is typical of those suffering SSA;
• Your experience demonstrates much about the affliction that others suffer?
• Your appeal to God was any more sincere than that of the many others for whom SSA is an on-going Trial and who strive on a daily basis to remain chaste?

Conspicuously enough of those on this forum those that suffer or have suffered from SSA by far the majority want to interpret the Catechism and dogma as implying SSA is a normal condition no different from other temptations. The results of course are predictable.

 

[Catolico65]

I agree with you that there is no choice involved in deciding sexual orientation. The bulk of people just “become” attracted to the opposite sex, which (thankfully) fits with the requirements of propagation of the species and the sexual complementarity of our sex organs.

Inferring that people must be innately created homosexual because they do not appear to have a choice in the matter flawed logic that completely disregards Scripture and dogma not to mention science. the fact is for by far the majority of people that have SSA they will change to OSA. FACT.

Furthermore, the statement that people “just become attracted to the opposite sex” infers it is by chance which disagrees with the Bible and Catholic teaching. In fact it is paramount to heresy.

 

[Catolico65]

What conclusive study do you base that assertion on?

The link appears in other threads but given that innate SSA theory supporters on this forum don’t bother to read the report but rather only google criticism from gay lobby websites and then cut and paste it here I see little point.

 

[Catolico65]

By all means - I agree. But the offering of therapies by paid persons needs to be subject to some controls by relevant authorities to protect the patients who are vulnerable to being conned. If the weight of medical opinion is that certain therapies rarely if ever work, or are believed to be harmful too often, then there is an argument that those therapies ought not to be offered.

As a Catholic we are called to follow God’s Word before the worlds, when there is a conflict. In fact we are commanded to.

 

[Catolico65]

Thanks for the common sense. We’ve seen quoted on this thread the statement that most people with SSA had it only temporarily and have gone back to heterosexuality. One wonders how many teenage boys who had an encounter with another boy in a bedroom with a couple of dirty magazines are being labelled as once having had SSA?

Facts are facts, there are more ex homosexual in existence than homosexuals.

Of course, if one doesn’t recognize they have a problem, they will never get healed. Logic 101.