Being gay is in your genes

[Catolico65]

Indeed. It’s like saying “there are more ex-ME sufferers than ME sufferers in the world”, because you count anyone that ever had a bout of fatigue as an “ex-ME sufferer”… Deeply flawed logic.

Edit: I’m of course not saying that ME is innate/congenital, nor that it’s impossible to heal or shares any other attribute with being gay. I’m just pointing out a flaw in how people make and read statistics.

Your assertion that standard statistical analysis is illogical is not accepted by anyone in the scientific community.

 

[Catolico65]

** It is absolutely, 100%, completely okay for someone to believe their SSAs are innate and be a practicing Catholic.** Any statement to the contrary is false, period.

While you may be able to pick and choose certain pastoral statements and take dogma out of context it does not mean in any way shape of form that assuming homosexuality is innate is doctrinal, much to the contrary.

The fact is there is a wealth of information and history regarding the topic and all one needs to do is have a humble heart with no preconceptions in order to see the truth as God created it.

It is quite apparent that those who suffer SSA must have a real fear of something that causes them to interpret dogma and statements to their own benefit as opposed to the real intention. What is this fear based on? Rejection by God? Being healed perhaps?

 

[Catolico65]

I have not, at any point, heard you say that the desire to steal is natural, but same-sex attraction is unnatural. So the above quote was not a swipe at you. Until proven otherwise, I assume that you believe that the desire to steal and SSA are both natural in one sense (natural to our fallen condition), but unnatural in another (not ultimately reconcilable with human good).

I do admit this: I am trying to help you clarify, in your own heart, your position. Because I don’t understand the basis for your position.

Perhaps I am wrong. If so, please explain to me my error.

I am not looking for clarification regarding this topic but I am here to spread the good news about what God has done for me.

What I want people to know there is real danger in believing that homosexuality could be innate in that it can cause them to mislead themselves and other people, thus prolonging their suffering. This is not necessary of course because we have Christ who will forgive us constantly and will heal us if we are patient. Therefore, no need to put lipstick on a frog, Christ’s sacrifice and love can redeem us no matter our condition. Of course submitting and denying one’s will is the bargaining chip, not to mention complete humility before God, and I suppose this could be problematic for some. It was a tough decision for me in my moment of crisis but it was worth it. Paz.

 

[Catolico65]

Based on my own struggles with personal issues I would have to say yes He does make this person attracted to the same sex and that person blind and etc. These, like external sufferings, are used to bring us closer to Him. As for being sadistic, that would only apply if He set us up to fail. We know that is not the case.

You at once say God creates man to have SSA and then say God would be sadistic if He created us to fail. By your own logic then and Scripture you are indeed stating that God is sadistic. You might want to rethink your statements.

 

[Catolico65]

God “allows”. Perhaps, philosophically, that is very similar to what you have expressed, but not quite the same.

Of course, you know I was pointing out the flaw in the argument of the other poster who suggested God either wants SSA persons to act homosexually OR else God is sadistic. And as you point out, God allowing (or causing) SSA in a person does not compel sin or a separation from God.

Getting “consensus” in any thread is not the equivalent to truth, only that the majority of people are lost. True fact.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

You at once say God creates man to have SSA and then say God would be sadistic if He created us to fail. By your own logic then and Scripture you are indeed stating that God is sadistic. You might want to rethink your statements.

This illustrates your continual refusal to properly distinguish sin and temptation. OldCatholicGuy admitted that God may allow/cause us to have sinful temptations like SSA, and then said:

As for being sadistic, that would only apply if He set us up to fail. We know that is not the case.

He did NOT said that God set us up to fail. Whenever there is a temptation, there is a way out of that temptation.

A couple of passages that might help clarify:

By Saint Alphonsus Liguori:

Almighty God, moreover, allows us to be tempted, to make us richer in merits, as it was said to Tobias: And because thou was acceptable to God, it was necessary that temptations should prove thee. [Tob. xii. 13.] Thus a soul need not imagine herself out of God’s favor because she is tempted, but should make it rather a motive of hope that God loves her. It is a delusion of the devil to lead some pusillanimous persons to suppose that temptations are sins that contaminate the soul. It is not bad thoughts that make us lose God, but the consenting to them; let the suggestions of the devil be ever so violent, let those filthy imaginations which overload our minds be ever so lively, they cannot cast the least stain on our souls, provided only we yield no consent to them; on the contrary, they make the soul purer, stronger, and dearer to Almighty God.

And John 9:

As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

“Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him."

 

[oldcatholicguy]

You at once say God creates man to have SSA and then say God would be sadistic if He created us to fail. By your own logic then and Scripture you are indeed stating that God is sadistic. You might want to rethink your statements.

Thanks, but between this thread and the other thread I tried to have discussion with you on it’s quite clear who’s logic is faulty and who needs to rethink their statements.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I am not looking for clarification regarding this topic but I am here to spread the good news about what God has done for me.

What I want people to know there is real danger in believing that homosexuality could be innate in that it can cause them to mislead themselves and other people, thus prolonging their suffering. This is not necessary of course because we have Christ who will forgive us constantly and will heal us if we are patient. Therefore, no need to put lipstick on a frog, Christ’s sacrifice and love can redeem us no matter our condition. Of course submitting and denying one’s will is the bargaining chip, not to mention complete humility before God, and I suppose this could be problematic for some. It was a tough decision for me in my moment of crisis but it was worth it. Paz.

…
BTW, I was sexually abused as a child and also was labeled as homosexual when I was in high school and given that my father was an alcoholic I had very low self esteem which only exacerbated my condition. Even though I wasn’t initially attracted to other men I was immensely preoccupied with admiration of what I considered were real men, something I assumed I could never attain. This constant doubt and normal attraction to women caused me to pursue women as objects even though I was raised Catholic. I had a crisis in college were my admiration for “real men” turned into something more, unwanted sexual thoughts and desires. I repented to God and asked for help and He did. I do see that could be infinitely much more difficult nowadays for young men who are never taught as children that homosexual desires are abnormal nor much less overtly effeminate mannerisms…

I’m not even sure that qualifies as bisexual let alone gay; treating women as objects is common heterosexual male behavior.

What about the people who pray for God to make it go away for years, do daily Mass, pray rosary daily, do lots of charitable work and it doesn’t go away?

Fetishizing masculinity is not the same as homosexuality.

You at once say God creates man to have SSA and then say God would be sadistic if He created us to fail. By your own logic then and Scripture you are indeed stating that God is sadistic. You might want to rethink your statements.

SSA isn’t setting up someone for failure.

 

[Catolico65]

I’m not even sure that qualifies as bisexual let alone gay; treating women as objects is common heterosexual male behavior.

What about the people who pray for God to make it go away for years, do daily Mass, pray rosary daily, do lots of charitable work and it doesn’t go away?

Fetishizing masculinity is not the same as homosexuality.

SSA isn’t setting up someone for failure.

Your repeated diagnosis and opinions are noted.

I suggest you read Scripture so you can have a better understanding of God’s intention as opposed to convenient interpretations. After all it is not our will but God’s. Don’t worry, there is little to fear, after all Christ died for us.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Your repeated diagnosis and opinions are noted.

Actually, I’m referring to definitions, not diagnoses

I suggest you read Scripture so you can have a better understanding of God’s intention as opposed to convenient interpretations. After all it is not our will but God’s. Don’t worry, there is little to fear, after all Christ died for us.

I’m not even sure what this is supposed to mean due to the lack of context given. I have read the Bible, many Patristic writings, the Catechism, things by Doctors of the Church, etc.

 

[Rau]

Inferring that people must be innately created homosexual because they do not appear to have a choice in the matter flawed logic that completely disregards Scripture and dogma not to mention science. the fact is for by far the majority of people that have SSA they will change to OSA. FACT.

Furthermore, the statement that people “just become attracted to the opposite sex” infers it is by chance which disagrees with the Bible and Catholic teaching. In fact it is paramount to heresy.

I infer nothing, but perhaps you do? I said, there is no choice. Ask around! Are you familiar with all the causes of, say, blindness? Do they all occur at the moment of conception? Not to worry, there is time to learn!

 

[Rau]

The link appears in other threads but given that innate SSA theory supporters on this forum don’t bother to read the report but rather only google criticism from gay lobby websites and then cut and paste it here I see little point.

You repeat yourself ad nauseum, except when asked for evidence. Could it be that the evidence tends to let you down?

Could it be that you confuse “no choice” with innate creation? There is only one set of blue prints Catolico, but the building process is not perfect.

 

[Rau]

I’m not even sure that qualifies as bisexual let alone gay; treating women as objects is common heterosexual male behavior.

Fetishizing masculinity is not the same as homosexuality.

I agree. He may have confused his own situation with homosexuality, which is a bit demeaning to those people who suffer it as a deep-seated, unwanted, unchosen scourge every day of their life; those that pray every day for it to be lifted and fight to remain chaste. By all means pray to God for the strength to live well and to ease the burden. But, to be declaring that a cure lies in turning to God with humility is not taught by the Church and is grievously cruel, but understandable given his experience is limited by brief personal circumstances.

 

[Rau]

As a Catholic we are called to follow God’s Word before the worlds, when there is a conflict. In fact we are commanded to.

By all means - I agree. But the offering of therapies by paid persons needs to be subject to some controls by relevant authorities to protect the patients who are vulnerable to being conned. If the weight of medical opinion is that certain therapies rarely if ever work, or are believed to be harmful too often, then there is an argument that those therapies ought not to be offered.

 

[Rau]

You at once say God creates man to have SSA and then say God would be sadistic if He created us to fail. By your own logic then and Scripture you are indeed stating that God is sadistic. You might want to rethink your statements.

Concupiscence gives rise to temptation, but is it evidence of a sadistic God? Would you say that, by not sending a spouse to a heterosexual man, God is sadistic? Does the requirement for celibacy of priests constitute sadism?

Temptation is not sin. Temptation does not set one up to fail.

 

[Catolico65]

This illustrates your continual refusal to properly distinguish sin and temptation. OldCatholicGuy admitted that God may allow/cause us to have sinful temptations like SSA, and then said:

He did NOT said that God set us up to fail. Whenever there is a temptation, there is a way out of that temptation.

With all due respect when you and others claim homosexual desires are innate, ie ordained by God as natural this by logical inference infers either God “sets us up to fail” or that God created homosexuality to be good. Of course are erroneous.

Worse is that when confused Christians tell others suffering from SSa that they can do nothing about it because it is God’s will. Not only is that tragic it could be dangerous for one’s soul.

 

[Catolico65]

Until proven otherwise, I assume that you believe that the desire to steal and SSA are both natural in one sense (natural to our fallen condition), but

The Catholic Church states homosexuality is contrary to natural law. Therefore, the use of the term “natural” appears to more of an expeditious nature to suit a purpose rather than to understand the Church’s position.

My advice is that dogma isn’t like the tax law where we need to look for loopholes, but rather something when taken as a whole is very clear and unambiguous. At any rate Christ is our loophole so we have no need to find any in the Church’s teachings.

 

[Catolico65]

Thanks, but between this thread and the other thread I tried to have discussion with you on it’s quite clear who’s logic is faulty and who needs to rethink their statements.

With all due respect there are a group of posters that jump in all the threads regarding homosexuality and all claim it is innate, thus trying to convince others by consensus. Conspicuously, this happens in other forums as well and is right out of the gay lobby handbook.

 

[Catolico65]

I’m not even sure that qualifies as bisexual let alone gay; treating women as objects is common heterosexual male behavior.

What about the people who pray for God to make it go away for years, do daily Mass, pray rosary daily, do lots of charitable work and it doesn’t go away?

Fetishizing masculinity is not the same as homosexuality.

SSA isn’t setting up someone for failure.

Your opinions are noted.

 

[Catolico65]

I infer nothing, but perhaps you do? I said, there is no choice. Ask around! Are you familiar with all the causes of, say, blindness? Do they all occur at the moment of conception? Not to worry, there is time to learn!

With all due respect if I want to know about a topic like this I don’t need to “ask around”, after all I have the Catholic Church’s teachings. I recommend you quit listening to the world regarding this topic but listen to Christ instead. Paz.