Belgian Bishop Accused of Homophobia

[NewUlm1976_2000]

"Totally agreed. Freedom of expression goes both ways. But how many Christians have imprisoned people who practiced homosexual behavior in the past? I don’t see it necessary to silence Christian speech but I also don’t see it necessary to silence homosexuals. Both can exist."

Not only can but should exist!
One of my sons is homosexual and he’s a lovely person.
Homosexuals also have loving, caring and stable relationships.
I don’t understand homophobics
Didn’t someone once say “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone” ?
And if homosexuals could not exist, just think of all that we would have lost in the way of Art, Literature and Inventions. No Leonardo da Vinci! No Oscar Wilde…etc

Part of it is little to no real exposure to them, just stereotypical depictions presented to them. Part of it is also this vocal segment of the Catholic population leans towards one political party who has worked behind to scenes to push this for votes over the past couple election cycles. Another part of it is some bishops who are looking for scapegoats over the recent molestation scandal.

My late aunt was a lesbian and would give the shirt off her back to help you if you needed it. She was liked by everyone she encountered. Her sexual preference meant nothing to others as other positive traits surpassed all. We were all happy to see her settle down with a partner and be happy before breast cancer took her life.

There is hope, more and more of the younger generations do not see any problems with same-gender preferences. They see them as average people and many are confused as to what all this fuss is about in some circles.

 

[Catholig]

The fact that so many catholics here seem to think that the “bishops are off base” and that homosexual acts/homosexual “marriages” are fine is extremely sad.

I doubt that every single point of catholic morality has to be declared ex cathedra (sp) to be binding on the faithful. I mean I don’t know how else to explain it but marriage is almost a vocation in the Church. It is the “domestic church”. It is there for to have children, to have a family, and ultimately to guide every member of that family to heaven. That is the purpose of marriage and the family. This cannot happen in homosexual homes because they aren’t teaching their children to be faithful to the magisterium, nor are they teaching them proper morals. It says in the bible that one shouldn’t commit homosexual acts - it is totally immoral and amounts to fornication. It is a rejection of God’s Commandments. It is…horrible.

Catholig

 

[Catholig]

Part of it is little to no real exposure to them, just stereotypical depictions presented to them. Part of it is also this vocal segment of the Catholic population leans towards one political party who has worked behind to scenes to push this for votes over the past couple election cycles. Another part of it is some bishops who are looking for scapegoats over the recent molestation scandal.

My late aunt was a lesbian and would give the shirt off her back to help you if you needed it. She was liked by everyone she encountered. Her sexual preference meant nothing to others as other positive traits surpassed all. We were all happy to see her settle down with a partner and be happy before breast cancer took her life.
**
There is hope, more and more of the younger generations do not see any problems with same-gender preferences.** They see them as average people and many are confused as to what all this fuss is about in some circles.

And how is this happening? By homosexual activists lobbying and using the public school system to indoctrinate our youth into believing that homosexual relations are fine, and into disbelieving what our bishops say. To teach our children that the bishops have no power and that whatever they say can be taken with a grain of salt. To foster a disrespect for the Church. Indeed if the Pope were to declare infallibly that homosexual actions were a grave matter (something he shouldn’t have to do, btw) what would they do but continue on teaching it - and indoctrinating our youth into the anti-religion, anti-church mind set.

Catholig

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

The fact that so many catholics here seem to think that the “bishops are off base” and that homosexual acts/homosexual “marriages” are fine is extremely sad.

I doubt that every single point of catholic morality has to be declared ex cathedra (sp) to be binding on the faithful. I mean I don’t know how else to explain it but marriage is almost a vocation in the Church. It is the “domestic church”. It is there for to have children, to have a family, and ultimately to guide every member of that family to heaven. That is the purpose of marriage and the family. This cannot happen in homosexual homes because they aren’t teaching their children to be faithful to the magisterium, nor are they teaching them proper morals. It says in the bible that one shouldn’t commit homosexual acts - it is totally immoral and amounts to fornication. It is a rejection of God’s Commandments. It is…horrible.

Catholig

Right now the talk is just allowing CIVIL marriage, not in the Church (that may come in later centuries given the speed of the Vatican sometimes).

Being faithful to the hierarchy and teaching morals are two mutually exclusive things. Same gender couples can easily impart good morals in their children and others (e.g. helping others, being faithful, charitable works, importance of spirituality,…).

Couples will still get married as usual and have children. That will not stop. The Sacrament in the church will continue on without stopping. Same-gender couples can raise adopted children the same moral ways.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

And how is this happening? By homosexual activists lobbying and using the public school system to indoctrinate our youth into believing that homosexual relations are fine, and into disbelieving what our bishops say. To teach our children that the bishops have no power and that whatever they say can be taken with a grain of salt. To foster a disrespect for the Church. Indeed if the Pope were to declare infallibly that homosexual actions were a grave matter (something he shouldn’t have to do, btw) what would they do but continue on teaching it - and indoctrinating our youth into the anti-religion, anti-church mind set.

Catholig

I do not see this as “indoctrination” at all. I see this as exposure to the REAL WORLD. They see same-gender preference people the same as everyone else from first hand experience. You cannot say all bishops have that. Today’s youth do listen to what comes out, use their conscious and life experience and decide for themselves.

If these matters were declared infallible, it would still not convince many. They would want to know from the pope, in real world experience how he came to that conclusion. It will not be ex cathedra because that is a drastic step and BXVI is more of a moderate Pope than some make him for. His college professor arguments are very complicated which makes this “issue” almost impossible to make black and white. He is much more pastoral in his Papal style and would not go this far.

 

[Bennie_P]

Yes, and my conscience says that the Bishops and Church are off base in their teachings on this. We are allowed freedom of conscience, even more because like I said before this not infallible and has not been declared ex cathedra.

Showing deference and respect to a person who appears to be outcasts to others is one of the things we are called to do. My conscience does not tell me to look down on people. I have shown respect to the bishops for their statement but, as I said it is not (and probably never will be) ex cathedra. This is a passing “issue” of our current times and will fade out as time goes on. The history of the Church has shown it has gone in phases and will continue to go in phases.

How are they off base? The Church teaches compassion for those that suffer from SSA. though I will be the first to admit many of us in the Church, including myself, need to learn to express that compassion in a more loving manner.

To have freedom of conscience you have to start with a well-formed conscience. The conscience you seemed to relish is one that is contrary to science and logic. If you plant a stick in fertilizer don’t expect to grow an oak tree. The main purpose of sexual attraction is to bring individuals together for building self-giving bonds in order to pro-create and create families. This is **never **possible in homosexual sexual activity. The act of sex between two persons of the same sex is one of self gratification and **never **for the purpose of pro-creation. It is self-centered, me, me, me gratification, and true bonding is yet to be proven in these type of relations. Co-dependence behaviour may happen, but this is usually always one sided. Most that act out thier SSA go from one partner to another (most SS realtionships last from an hour to a few weeks), until they die young, usually in thier late 30s to early 40s.

Those that act out thier SSA, have shorter life spans then hetersexuals, they transmit STDs at epidemic rates, (all sexual activity outside of marriage feeds into this health concern), suffer from deppression, drug addiction, alcoholism and sucide at far higher rates then hetersexuals.

And please note - about 80% of the sex abuse incidents within the Church have been shown to be SSA related, not pedephilia aimed at pre-adolescent children.

People that don’t want to hear about the Church teachings on morality are just blindly rejecting any sort of morality by any standard, not just the Church standards. They have the inability to recognize the destruction immoral behaviour causes in society, against other individuals and thier own bodies, minds and souls. This is true with those that suffer from SSA and hetersexuals that refuse to live out thier lives in a moral manner. Society teaches us to just to seek out own pleasures and following this teaching is the wide path of destruction. Love gives not demands.

If you feel like an outcast, maybe it is becuase you are trying to break the mold that God formed you in.

 

[Catholig]

Right now the talk is just allowing CIVIL marriage, not in the Church (that may come in later centuries given the speed of the Vatican sometimes).

Being faithful to the hierarchy and teaching morals are two mutually exclusive things. Same gender couples can easily impart good morals in their children and others (e.g. helping others, being faithful, charitable works, importance of spirituality,…).

Couples will still get married as usual and have children. That will not stop. The Sacrament in the church will continue on without stopping. Same-gender couples can raise adopted children the same moral ways.

While I did focus on sacramental marriages in my last post all the points remain - homosexuals shouldn’t be allowed to marry, even into "civil marriages"or “civil unions” because they are underminding the purpose of the family, and the church. I cannot believe that you’d argue that this should happen.

Also morals and being faithful to the magisterium are not two mutually exclusive things - the magisterium teachs us what is moral and what is immoral. That is their job, and that is why god appointed them. If you are unfaithful to the magisterium then you are unfaithful to God. While charity may be a good thing to impart to ones children it doesn’t negate other sins such as fornication which are much worse.

All this said - I doubt that homosexuals couples could give the children they have adopted or worse begotten through immoral means such as “in vitro fertilisation” any true or meaningful moral foundation. They have contradicted the bible, which says:
Gn 2:18:

Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh

Lv 18:22:

Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind, because it is an abomination.

Lv 20:13:

If any one lie with a man as with a woman, both have committed an abomination, let them be put to death: their blood be upon them.

Corinthians 6:9-10:

Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers,*Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.

And the magisterium which says:
CCC 2357:

Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

CCC 2396:

Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.

And indeed it also contradicts the works of Sts. Thomas Aquinas & Peter Damian - the latter of whom’s work I have a quote from:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/homo-damian1.html:

Four types of this form of criminal wickedness can be distinguished in an effort to show you the totality of the whole matter in and orderly way: some sine with themselves alone [masturbation]; some by the hands of others [mutual masturbation]; others between the thighs [interfemoral intercourse]; and finally, others commit the complete act against nature [anal intercourse]. The ascending gradation among these is such that the last mentioned are judged to be more serious that the preceding. Indeed a greater penance is imposed on those who fall with others than those who defile only themselves; and those who complete the act are to be judged more severely than those who are defiled through femoral fornication. The devil’s artful fraud devises these degrees of failing into ruin such that the higher the level the unfotyunate soul reaches in them, the deeper it sinks in the depths of hell’s pit.

See how this is totally against the Church?

Catholig

 

[Mirdath]

Bennie, correlation is not causation, and for one who takes umbrage at generalization so quickly you would do well not to generalize others yourself.

And while there are plenty of promiscuous, self-interested homosexuals, the same can be said for straights. The sex act can be a giving of the self no matter which sets of genitalia are involved or whether it is open to the possibility of procreation.

 

[Catholig]

You may also want to look at this.

Catholig

 

[Mirdath]

All this said - I doubt that homosexuals couples could give the children they have adopted or worse begotten through immoral means such as “in vitro fertilisation” any true or meaningful moral foundation. They have contradicted the bible, which says:

If we assume the rate of procreation is roughly the same the world round, almost six out of seven heterosexual couples are going against the bible, which apparently says ‘be Catholic’, and hence against the Magisterium as well. Are they incapable of raising a child with a ‘true or meaningful moral foundation’?

 

[Catholig]

If we assume the rate of procreation is roughly the same the world round, almost six out of seven heterosexual couples are going against the bible, which apparently says ‘be Catholic’, and hence against the Magisterium as well. Are they incapable of raising a child with a ‘true or meaningful moral foundation’?

If what they are teaching their children is against the bible it is not true morality that they are imparting. It is a weakened or false morality.

Catholig

 

[Wolseley]

NewUlm1976_2000:

Yep, it is only infallible if it is ex cathedra.

No, NewUlm, that is incorrect.

There are a number of ways that a teaching of the Catholic Faith can be infallible, and ex cathedra is only one of them. If a reigning Pontiff makes a statement pertaining to faith or morals that is binding on the universal Church, that is ex cathedra, and yes, it is infallible.

However, Apostolic Tradition is also infallible. Holy Scripture is also infallible. The declarations of an ecumenical council are also infallible. The prohibition against active homosexual behavior is well-attested to both in Holy Scripture and in Tradition, and as such, it is part of the original Deposit of the Faith, and therefore infallible to begin with; it does not need to be declared infallible by an ex cathedra statement.

Your wishful thinking will not change that.

NewUlm1976_2000:

This snipped of your clip of Canon Law shows to show the teaching with respect but that is all. You can listen to it with respect and then debate back. Giving respect to the point is not the same as making it infallible. That status has to be explicitly given (and was not given before 1870 at all, see Vatican I, loss of Papal states era).

See above.

NewUlm1976_2000:

Yes, and my conscience says that the Bishops and Church are off base in their teachings on this.

So in other words, you are your own Pope. Welcome to the Protestant church, Reverend Luther. “I am more afraid of my own heart than the Pope and all his cardinals. I have within me the great Pope, Self.”

NewUlm1976_2000:

We are allowed freedom of conscience, even more because like I said before this not infallible and has not been declared ex cathedra.

See above.

NewUlm1976_2000:

I have shown respect to the bishops for their statement but, as I said it is not (and probably never will be) ex cathedra.

It doesn’t have to be declared ex cathedra; it’s already infallible and immutable. See above.

NewUlm1976_2000:

Being faithful to the hierarchy and teaching morals are two mutually exclusive things.

So, I can pay respect to what the hierarchy has to say, but still teach that it’s okay to commit murder?

NewUlm1976_2000:

Same gender couples can easily impart good morals in their children and others (e.g. helping others, being faithful, charitable works, importance of spirituality,…).

You cannot provide a good example to children about correct moral behavior while you yourself are engaging in mortal sin, no matter what kind of correct behvaior you’re trying to impart on the children. Even Hitler tried to come up with the most humane way to cook a lobster…was he a good and moral man?

NewUlm1976_2000:

Same-gender couples can raise adopted children the same moral ways.

And all while living in a willful state of mortal sin. Remarkable.

NewUlm1976_2000:

I do not see this as “indoctrination” at all. I see this as exposure to the REAL WORLD. They see same-gender preference people the same as everyone else from first hand experience. You cannot say all bishops have that. Today’s youth do listen to what comes out, use their conscious and life experience and decide for themselves.

And thus become their own little Popes. Rev. Luther would be proud.

NewUlm1976_2000:

If these matters were declared infallible, it would still not convince many.

And as we have already gone over, these matters do not have to be “declared infallible”; they already are.

NewUlm1976_2000:

They would want to know from the pope, in real world experience how he came to that conclusion.

And if they happened to disagree with how the Pope came to this conclusion, then they can feel free to ignore it, right?

Nothing new there, either:

“Thus I will have it, and thus I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough…say to them, 'Dr. Martin Luther will have it so, and he is a Doctor above all Doctors in the whole of Popery.”

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

While I did focus on sacramental marriages in my last post all the points remain - homosexuals shouldn’t be allowed to marry, even into "civil marriages"or “civil unions” because they are underminding the purpose of the family, and the church. I cannot believe that you’d argue that this should happen.

Also morals and being faithful to the magisterium are not two mutually exclusive things - the magisterium teachs us what is moral and what is immoral. That is their job, and that is why god appointed them. If you are unfaithful to the magisterium then you are unfaithful to God. While charity may be a good thing to impart to ones children it doesn’t negate other sins such as fornication which are much worse.

All this said - I doubt that homosexuals couples could give the children they have adopted or worse begotten through immoral means such as “in vitro fertilisation” any true or meaningful moral foundation. They have contradicted the bible, which says:

And the magisterium which says:

And indeed it also contradicts the works of Sts. Thomas Aquinas & Peter Damian - the latter of whom’s work I have a quote from:

See how this is totally against the Church?

Catholig

I will first start with “If you are unfaithful to the magisterium then you are unfaithful to God” part. This is unrealistic in day to society and in the Church. This comes down to church history in where “infallibly”/ex cathedra was not even around before 1870 and it was an insult to say anyone can never make mistakes. The Magisterium is a group of fallible men, just like the rest of us. The interpretation of ex cathedra was still to make a very high bar to allow issues to be discussed and debated as Catholic Theology has always changed over times and will continue to change with the times. Our talents are to interpret the statements to the best of our ability and raise questions to improve the life in and outside of the institution of the Church.

How are they really “undermining the family”? I have heard this statement many hundreds of times and I never see it in life. Marriages (church and civil) continue to happen, people continue to procreate and reproduce. Marriages fail for the usual reasons we see (finances, communication, etc…). I have never heard of one marriage fail because of what another couple (same or different gender preferences) does. This is a scapegoating with respect to how marriages fail in real life.

How should we focus on making marriages stronger? Well, lets look at other parts of Catholic Theology. One is the church has always wanted good and fair wages for workers (sometimes that includes a union model). This push for job security helps all family models in society (better finances, increased vacation and time away from work to spend with family, etc…). Charitable works is another, in that not only does it get the family out of the house, it also bonds them together as a cohesive group and increases communication, reduces stress, etc… It is an external and internal form of solidarity towards others.

The only difference between people with same-gender preference and those who do not have it is just who they share their love and affection for. The rest of their personal makeup follows along the same lines of the rest of society, both the good and bad. They are more than able to raise good, loving, and spiritual children. We need to give children much more credit in these discussions than is usually given (a weakness of aging I guess). Children to not divide on differences, they look for similarities.

The bible is of course just one of the many things we as Catholic use, and as you can see with the rest of the board there are as many interpretations and focuses as there have been people on the planet.

 

[Bennie_P]

Bennie, correlation is not causation, and for one who takes umbrage at generalization so quickly you would do well not to generalize others yourself…

Causation can take in a lot of factors, but what I wrote is statistically true though generalized, what do you expect detailed reports and studies that people will not even read in a forum format such as we have here?

One thing I would like to add which is aimed at drug and alcohol abuse among homosexuals - the use of drugs and the abusive use of alcohol tends to leads a person to act out thier
tendencies for promiscuous behaviour, behaviours that many would not even consider in a sober mind. So one could say substance abuse causes an increase in homosexualilty? and other promiscuous behaviour (hetersexuals included) within society in general (a genrealization), but take that a step further it could be showing immoral behaviour seeks out other types of immoral behaviour. Something to think about.

And while there are plenty of promiscuous, self-interested homosexuals, the same can be said for straights. The sex act can be a giving of the self no matter which sets of genitalia are involved or whether it is open to the possibility of procreation.

I took to task hetersexuals failure to live up to the same morality standards as the Chuch requires of those that struggle with SSA.
The moral standard is the same for both.
You cannot justifiy a wrong of one group because the failure within another.

Giving of self envolves more then allowing someone to use your body as a tool/object for masturbation.

OK, now it is time for you say, o poo poo

 

[Mirdath]

If what they are teaching their children is against the bible it is not true morality that they are imparting. It is a weakened or false morality.

Well, I guess that does it for every non-Catholic family out there
Bennie P:

Causation can take in a lot of factors, but what I wrote is statistically true though generalized, what do you expect detailed reports and studies that people will not even read in a forum format such as we have here?

Being gay does not ‘cause’ these behaviors, that’s the problem. You’re mistaking a correlation (and an exaggerated one, at that) for causation.

So one could say substance abuse causes an increase in homosexualilty?

‘Doing drugs makes you gay!’ I don’t even know what to say to that – it’s on the same level as the soy scare a few months back.

The moral standard is the same for both.
You cannot justifiy a wrong of one group because the failure within another.

I don’t even consider homosexuality ‘wrong’.

Giving of self envolves more then allowing someone to use your body as a tool/object for masturbation

So, I guess post-menopausal heterosexual sex is just mutual masturbation, as is sex in which one or both partners is naturally or accidentally barren/sterile? Sorry, not buying it. The unitive purpose of sex is not bound up entirely to the procreative, even according to the RCC, and an inability concerning the second does not necessarily affect the first.

 

[Wolseley]

I will first start with “If you are unfaithful to the magisterium then you are unfaithful to God” part. This is unrealistic in day to society and in the Church. This comes down to church history in where “infallibly”/ex cathedra was not even around before 1870 and it was an insult to say anyone can never make mistakes.

Since you chose to ignore my post above, I’ll only repeat what I said there: ex cathedra is not the only form an infallible teaching of the Church can take, and infallibility was around from day one—it wasn’t “invented” in 1870, no matter how much you might want it to be so you can feel better about ignoring whichever infallible teachings you don’t happen to like.

The Magisterium is a group of fallible men, just like the rest of us.

Who are led by an infallible Holy Spirit.

Unless, of course, you’re advocating that the Holy Spirit isn’t infallible. Or, more likely you’re advocating that the Magesterium isn’t led by the Holy Spirit, but that your own personal conscience is. Gotcha.

How are they really “undermining the family”? I have heard this statement many hundreds of times and I never see it in life.

Homosexual “marriage” isn’t a cause, it’s a symptom. It’s an example of the rapidly decaying moral climate in most of the West, and the fact that this topic even exists and is actually being debated is ample evidence of that. Along with all of the other myriad problems that have arisen in our post-Christian society, it’s just one more proof that we have completely lost our bearings and are going down the tubes.

There is nothing new in this. Societies, cultures, even entire civilizations have reached the point where we are now; we have ceased to grow and are instead living off the still-warm corpse of our own society, and comfort, affluence, and hedonism are the most important things—the “right” of every citizen—to the vast majority of the population. The unfortunate part is that when a society has become corrupt, fat, lazy, apathetic, fragmented, and morally bankrupt, they are always replaced by another culture that is vibrant, hard, adheres to a high religious and or/moral system, and is unified in their ultimate vision.

When Western Europe and the USA/Canada are both replaced in next 50 to 100 years or so by Islamic Caliphates, remember that.

How should we focus on making marriages stronger? Well, lets look at other parts of Catholic Theology. One is the church has always wanted good and fair wages for workers (sometimes that includes a union model). This push for job security helps all family models in society (better finances, increased vacation and time away from work to spend with family, etc…). Charitable works is another, in that not only does it get the family out of the house, it also bonds them together as a cohesive group and increases communication, reduces stress, etc… It is an external and internal form of solidarity towards others.

I find it amusing, in light of the other things you advocate, that you would invoke Catholic theology to strengthen marriage. I find it likewise telling that you appear to confuse theology with the ever-trendy “social justice” theme that is the fave of progressives everywhere.

The only difference between people with same-gender preference and those who do not have it is just who they share their love and affection for.

There are other differences as well…a vastly increased probability for anal cancer, HIV, chlamydia trachomatis, viral hepatitis, hemorrhoids, anal fissures, intestinal infections, depression, bipolar disorder, panic disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, social phobia, drug abuse, alcoholism, suicide, and promiscuity among them.

The rest of their personal makeup follows along the same lines of the rest of society, both the good and bad. They are more than able to raise good, loving, and spiritual children. We need to give children much more credit in these discussions than is usually given (a weakness of aging I guess). Children to not divide on differences, they look for similarities.

Do they look for similarities in the ongoing mortal sins of their “guardians” and the ongoing mortal sins of others, do you suppose?

The bible is of course just one of the many things we as Catholic use, and as you can see with the rest of the board there are as many interpretations and focuses as there have been people on the planet.

Where you encounter multiple interpretations, it is always safest to adhere to the one put forth by the Church. The Church is, after all, led by the Holy Spirit, while we, all too often, are not.

But then, you don’t agree with that, do you?

 

[childofmary1143]

I’m going to risk my status in Catholic forums here by stating that I am offended that ‘NewUlm1976_2000’ is allowed to post his heretical, dangerous views while purportedly stating that he/she is Catholic.

To the rest of the people here in this thread, the only thing I can say is that you can try all you like to reason with ‘NewUlm’ but his/her mind is made up and will not listen.

So save your breath and energy on something else.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

I’m going to risk my status in Catholic forums here by stating that I am offended that ‘NewUlm1976_2000’ is allowed to post his heretical, dangerous views while purportedly stating that he/she is Catholic.

To the rest of the people here in this thread, the only thing I can say is that you can try all you like to reason with ‘NewUlm’ but his/her mind is made up and will not listen.

So save your breath and energy on something else.

If you feel that way, report the specific posts.

 

[childofmary1143]

If you feel that way, report the specific posts.

which one(s)?

 

[goofyjim]

I am offended by Silvername and the constant barrage of attacks on the same issue.