Belgian senate approves euthanasia for children [CWN]

[Lion_IRC]

Lion IRC;11729673:

belorg;11727692:

Lion IRC;11727559:

I find it sickening that Belgian law makers have conferred on children the ability to give legal informed consent.

What next?

You don’t know the Belgian situation, Lion.

Yes, I do.
Are you living in Belgium ??

Does one have to be living in Belgium to understand what has been done? Cant citizens/catholics living in other countries have morally valid positions?

The law has conferred a right to children which they did not previously have - viz; the right to give informed consent to their own death.

A horrific legal precedent has been set that children can, in some circumstances, autonomously decide what they want done with and to their body.

And if they have the mental capacity to agree to euthanasia, (proposed by their parents!) what other less serious things might just as easily be argued?

By what logic can a child understand and consent to their own suicide **and yet NOT **be permitted for example, to take pain relieving heroin injections? Or to make legally binding financial contracts with respect to the post-mortem use of their body parts? (Kidneys - $15K. Livers - $25K. Who gets the money??? )

 

[Lion_IRC]

***…can I euthanize my own child?
No - not without their consent. ***

 

[Caldera599]

Lord, have mercy on Belgium :crying:

 

[josie_L]

***…can I euthanize my own child?
No - not without their consent. ***

Good point! Moreover, if a terminally ill adult wants to die then why not do it themselves, i.e., why have the government sanction it? I am, of course, not advocating this stance, but I can’t understand people pushing for euthanasia when in reality you can end your own life with or without the state’s approval.

 

[belorg]

Does one have to be living in Belgium to understand what has been done?

Judging by what people claim here, i would say yes.

Cant citizens/catholics living in other countries have morally valid positions?

Yes, they can, but in order to make judgment on a law in another country, knowing the situation in that country does not seem a bad idea.

The law has conferred a right to children which they did not previously have - viz; the right to give informed consent to their own death.

That’s true, to some extent.

A horrific legal precedent has been set that children can, in some circumstances, autonomously decide what they want done with and to their body.

Not completely autonomously.

And if they have the mental capacity to agree to euthanasia, (proposed by their parents!) what other less serious things might just as easily be argued?

Who knows. But every thing has to be argued for on its own.

By what logic can a child understand and consent to their own suicide **and yet NOT **be permitted for example, to take pain relieving heroin injections?

By the same logic that somebody in the US has the right to own a hand gun but not a nuclear missile.
And by the logic that says herion injections are illegal, but morfine injections aren’t.

 

[belorg]

***…can I euthanize my own child?
No - not without their consent. ***

You think that doing it without their consent is better?

 

[Tenofovir]

While I am no fan of euthanasia, I see some issues in your argument…

The decision of a person is obviously influenced by their situation. A well person does not seek an end to pain, or seek death. They want death because of their situation, and I don’t think it makes sense to invalidate their decision because of their situation, unless there is the possibility that the situation will change.

There are two aspects to this warrant. They want death because they’re tired of the pain (loss of dignity, etc), but the pain is affecting their mood and so on, which makes death a more welcoming choice or even an inevitable choice. If you could isolate the person’s mind from his psycho-psychical state you could get a more free choice but that’s not really possible.

The physical state, the psychiatric state, the social milieu and so on, all influence the patient’s mental processes, self image, view of the future, outlook etc. He is suffering but his suffering may be less bearable because of the condition, this makes him desperate to select death. The death wish whether specific or wish to escape the situation at any cost (desperation) is symptom of the condition. There is a complex interplay in our brains between different stimuli. A conscious and a subconscious aspect. We know that organic disease affects the mental state. That effect makes people more likely to choose more desperate measures. These effects may also be subtle and additive.

Can we invalidate such a choice? Well perhaps not. But then let’s call this a coerced choice and not a free choice and let’s not kid around. These are vulnerable people. And this also allows us to ignore suicidal patients. We may as well shut down suicide hotlines, emergency psychiatric services, and so on, because the same sort of thing affects depressed suicidal people.

You know it’s not uncommon for smokers or drinkers who come into ERs reeling in pain from pancreatitis and unable to speak from breathlessness in COPD exacerbations to swear and promise to give up the booze and smokes, but then afterward when they’re well again they return to their old habits.

 

[kate_jackson]

Another unsubstantiated opinion. Religious leaders of all of the great faith traditions spoke out in horror at this latest attempt to cloak saving money in the filthy garment of (at best) misguided compassion. If any Catholics in Belgium agree with your opinion, they are either ignorant or reject the most basic and important teaching regarding respect for human life.

Lisa

I totally agree with you

 

[Tenofovir]

Rau, to put this differently, the condition (and other aspects thereof) influence the decision making processes. So the decision is not free, not as free as someone who lists pros/cons of getting a loan or a particular degree, but rather as someone who has to make a split second choice because his child is sick and he needs $$$ to pay - he’ll make a free choice to go to a loan shark.

 

[LisaA]

There are two aspects to this warrant. They want death because they’re tired of the pain (loss of dignity, etc), but the pain is affecting their mood and so on, which makes death a more welcoming choice or even an inevitable choice. If you could isolate the person’s mind from his psycho-psychical state you could get a more free choice but that’s not really possible.

The physical state, the psychiatric state, the social milieu and so on, all influence the patient’s mental processes, self image, view of the future, outlook etc. He is suffering but his suffering may be less bearable because of the condition, this makes him desperate to select death. The death wish whether specific or wish to escape the situation at any cost (desperation) is symptom of the condition. There is a complex interplay in our brains between different stimuli. A conscious and a subconscious aspect. We know that organic disease affects the mental state. That effect makes people more likely to choose more desperate measures. These effects may also be subtle and additive.

Can we invalidate such a choice? Well perhaps not. But then let’s call this a coerced choice and not a free choice and let’s not kid around. These are vulnerable people. And this also allows us to ignore suicidal patients. We may as well shut down suicide hotlines, emergency psychiatric services, and so on, because the same sort of thing affects depressed suicidal people.

You know it’s not uncommon for smokers or drinkers who come into ERs reeling in pain from pancreatitis and unable to speak from breathlessness in COPD exacerbations to swear and promise to give up the booze and smokes, but then afterward when they’re well again they return to their old habits.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise. As you noted, in the midst of pain and emotional distress, one may say or do things that are the pain not the person talking. That we recognize and address physical and emotional distress indicates that the appropriate response to a terminally ill child is similar to addressing a potential suicide or mentally ill individual. Treat the cause not the symptoms. Killing the person is the opposite approach with no ability to turn back.

Lisa

 

[Monkey1976]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise. As you noted, in the midst of pain and emotional distress, one may say or do things that are the pain not the person talking. That we recognize and address physical and emotional distress indicates that the appropriate response to a terminally ill child is similar to addressing a potential suicide or mentally ill individual. Treat the cause not the symptoms. Killing the person is the opposite approach with no ability to turn back.

Lisa

Excellent point about it being the pain talking. It brings up another question for those who support this: If legal testimony or evidence obtained by inflicting pain is unreliable, how can a request for death while in pain be considered a free, informed choice?

 

[Tenofovir]

Excellent point about it being the pain talking. It brings up another question for those who support this: If legal testimony or evidence obtained by inflicting pain is unreliable, how can a request for death while in pain be considered a free, informed choice?

It also need not be something overt and obvious as pain. Relatively subtle things also affect outlook in life and decision making processes.

 

[Thorns]

If a child can’t consent to sex, how on earth can they consent to suicide. This is literally murder.

Great point. Guess what? Legal pedophilia is next. “If a child can choose to die, surely they can choose to have sex with whoever they want.”

 

[LisaA]

Excellent point about it being the pain talking. It brings up another question for those who support this: If legal testimony or evidence obtained by inflicting pain is unreliable, how can a request for death while in pain be considered a free, informed choice?

Good point! I suspect the very same cadre claiming loud music or sleep deprivation or even waterboarding is torture and thus information gained through torture is unreliable, would happily accept the directive of a CHILD who is in physical and emotional pain. The world has truly gone mad

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

Great point. Guess what? Legal pedophilia is next. “If a child can choose to die, surely they can choose to have sex with whoever they want.”

Oh this is ALREADY being promoted…the “rights of the child” to sexual expression is touted by the UN and other secular organizations in total perversion of the role of adults to PROTECT rather than exploit children. Evil is out there and we must call it out for what it is.

Lisa

 

[Tenofovir]

Great point. Guess what? Legal pedophilia is next. “If a child can choose to die, surely they can choose to have sex with whoever they want.”

Time Magazine back in 1982 or so wrote about that. Every now and again there are moves to do just this. For example some psychiatrists don’t want to label pedophilia as a treatment requiring disorder anymore.

 

[Laurent_LUG]

Great point. Guess what? Legal pedophilia is next. “If a child can choose to die, surely they can choose to have sex with whoever they want.”

Legalising pedophilia ?? The one who legalise this , is a dirty pervert !!
I’m also against child marriage !!

Pedophilia: It’s an adult who wanna have sex with children ,
it’s not children who wanna have sex with adults !!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

 

[Thorns]

Legalising pedophilia ?? The one who legalise this , is a dirty pervert !!
I’m also against child marriage !!

Pedophilia: It’s an adult who wanna have sex with children ,
it’s not children who wanna have sex with adults !!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

And children dont really want to die, its adults convincing children into thinking that’s what they want. No different from the steps they’ll take in legalizing pedophilia. It just logically.follows.

 

[Tenofovir]

Legalising pedophilia ?? The one who legalise this , is a dirty pervert !!
I’m also against child marriage !!

Pedophilia: It’s an adult who wanna have sex with children ,
it’s not children who wanna have sex with adults !!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

You do know that these days sex is promoted even to those who don’t want it?
You do know that many people criticize abstinence as a safer sex practice? And that if someone actually admits that they practice abstinence then it’s you know a shameful thing…an outdated thing… something which is actually harmful? And some people will come out and say… “what’s wrong with children experimenting” and “surely it’s not the actual act of “love” but the societal scorn which harms the child” or when “it’s done wrong”. Go around the internet and you’ll see many people advocating for younger and younger ages of consent, argument being “it’s natural” or “they’re gonna do it anyway” or “it’s due to Christian influence” and so on…

I am very sure that sex with animals and sex with minors will become more and more prominent in the future. As for the argument for sex with animals… ever have a dog try to do it with your leg?

 

[josie_L]

And children dont really want to die, its adults convincing children into thinking that’s what they want. No different from the steps they’ll take in legalizing pedophilia. It just logically.follows.

There is a party in the Netherlands that is based, I believe, around Pedophilia, they are hoping to lower the age of consent, although there are movements in America as well, i.e., the Baltimore Conference of 2011. Here is an excerpt of that conference I referenced:

Pedophilia Rights Convention in Baltimore

B4U-ACT held event for “minor-attracted persons” in August

On August 17, 2011, a pro-pedophilia conference was held in Baltimore in an ongoing attempt to influence government and medical authorities toward an acceptance of what was referred to “minor-attracted persons” and their lifestyles.

This reporter stumbled across this article which led him to investigate further in order to verify that this conference indeed took place, since it was unreported in major news outlets such as the Baltimore Sun.

Of note, one speaker in attendance,
Fred S. Berlin, M.D., Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences
Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine
Baltimore, MD,

works at a ‘sex clinic’ originally founded by “John Money, Ph.D., to give judges “leeway” to keep child molesters out of jail. Money (deceased), a pedophile advocate, also called for an end to all age-of-consent laws,” according to one of the links. Berlin was “his disciple,” according to that article.

The main emphasis of the meeting was to attempt to persuade the American Psychological Association Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (APA DSM) to be changed, as it was in 1973 for homosexuality, to remove pedophilia as a mental disorder in order to help pedophiliacs feel accepted by the culture. Several if not all of the talks at the event had to do with declassifying pedophilia as a paraphilia from the DSM.

my.umbc.edu/news/8601