Belief in Some Kind of "Afterlife"

[Newbie2]

Show me someone who “experienced” afterlife and came back to prove it. Movies and recordings preferred.

There are cases of near-death and out-of-body experiences that have been documented. Movies and recordings of the afterlife? It’s not a physical place.

What other way is there, and why is it reliable?

Experience.

Which they usually are.

Nice cop out.

Archeological evidence for “walking on water”, for example?

Are we talking about “proving” miracles? That’s another discussion.

No, it is not sad at all. It is called “accepting reality”. True, it would be nice to have another shot at existence. So what? It would be nice to be a millionaire, too. Lots of things “would be nice”. But one should not give up what exists for something that may not exist.

I sense a crack in your convictions.

What exactly is one giving up, in your opinion?

 

[ateista]

There are cases of near-death and out-of-body experiences that have been documented. Movies and recordings of the afterlife? It’s not a physical place.

So? I was in clinical death once due to a heart attack. There was nothing. Is this also evidence? There are millions of people who have not had any such experience. Does that count? Or only positive “experiences” count?

Near-death experiences happen when the brain is deprived of oxigen. That is a much more probable cause.

Experience.

Experince of what? I am asking about an alternative epistemological method which is not empiricism and why it that allged method reliable. “Experince” is by definition an “empiricist” method.

Are we talking about “proving” miracles? That’s another discussion.

Whatever. I did not deny that there are archeologically sound parts in the Bible. That does not count as evidence to the other parts.

What exactly is one giving up, in your opinion?

A lot. The idea that this life is worth living for its own sake. That there is more to this life than a “proving ground”. That one does not waste a serious portion of one’s life on meaningless rituals. That one may justly be proud of one’s accomplishments. That one is not compelled to look into the mirror and see an abominable creature, whose only hope is that God is supposed to be forgiving. That we all deserve hell (and even worse!). Such beliefs render one’s self-esteem to non-existent. I cannot imagine a more self-damaging attitude.

 

[Newbie2]

So? I was in clinical death once due to a heart attack. There was nothing. Is this also evidence? There are millions of people who have not had any such experience. Does that count? Or only positive “experiences” count?

Near-death experiences happen when the brain is deprived of oxigen. That is a much more probable cause. Well…yeah, only positive experiences count. Otherwise they’re not evidence for the existance of an afterlife. Ah…a more probable cause…but if so it should be scientifically provable that oxygen deprivation is the sole cause, no?

Experince of what? I am asking about an alternative epistemological method which is not empiricism and why it that allged method reliable. “Experince” is by definition an “empiricist” method.

Experience of whatever is being “tested” to determine it’s reality.

Whatever. I did not deny that there are archeologically sound parts in the Bible. That does not count as evidence to the other parts.

Why not?

A lot. The idea that this life is worth living for its own sake. That there is more to this life than a “proving ground”. That one does not waste a serious portion of one’s life on meaningless rituals. That one may justly be proud of one’s accomplishments. That one is not compelled to look into the mirror and see an abominable creature, whose only hope is that God is supposed to be forgiving. That we all deserve hell (and even worse!). Such beliefs render one’s self-esteem to non-existent. I cannot imagine a more self-damaging attitude.

I would think that the idea of there being no hope of anything beyond this life being self-damaging. What you don’t apparently understand about (Catholic specifically) Christianity is:

1. Life isn’t meant to be a “proving ground”.
2. The rituals aren’t meaningless to (most of) those who participate in them.
3. That it’s OK to be proud of what one accomplishes in this life, provided of course that one gives the Creator his Kudos.
4. That we are created good and unless one is a Calvinist, are not abominable.

As you put it, agreed, such would give one’s self-esteem a real beating. Fortunately, Catholocism doesn’t do so.

 

[ateista]

Well…yeah, only positive experiences count. Otherwise they’re not evidence for the existance of an afterlife.

I wonder if you are serious…

Suppose the “theory” would be something like this: “all dogs have three legs”. When one sees a four-legged dog, that is not counted. When one sees a three legged dog, that is counted. At the end the “experimenter” proudly affirms that indeed there are only three-legged dogs. When asked about the rest, he just shrugs, and says: “Oh, those do not count”.

Sounds weird, doesn’t it?

Ah…a more probable cause…but if so it should be scientifically provable that oxygen deprivation is the sole cause, no?

No one really bothers, because it is not relevant.

Experience of whatever is being “tested” to determine it’s reality.

Therefore it is an emprical method.

Why not?

Please. If you don’t see it, I will not explain. If you just try to pull my leg, don’t bother.

I would think that the idea of there being no hope of anything beyond this life being self-damaging.

For many it would be. Those who accept adulthood and do not look at some authority for guidance it is invigorating.

What you don’t apparently understand about (Catholic specifically) Christianity is:

1. Life isn’t meant to be a “proving ground”.
2. The rituals aren’t meaningless to (most of) those who participate in them.
3. That it’s OK to be proud of what one accomplishes in this life, provided of course that one gives the Creator his Kudos.
4. That we are created good and unless one is a Calvinist, are not abominable.

As you put it, agreed, such would give one’s self-esteem a real beating. Fortunately, Catholocism doesn’t do so.

Oh, I do understand. Many posters here on these boards asserted most seriously that this life does not matter. They said that when I asked them about the horrible pain and suffering people are subject to. When they ran out of other nonsensical arguments, this was their last “trump-card”. And, no, I did not invent this.

Also it is repeated ad nauseam that we are all sinners, nothing more, and we never deserve anything but eternal damnation in hell. It is our “just” fate, and God’s grace (or mercy) is our only hope.

Funny stuff about Calvinists. So they rate even lower than Muslims or atheists?

 

[Newbie2]

I wonder if you are serious…
Suppose the “theory” would be something like this: “all dogs have three legs”. When one sees a four-legged dog, that is not counted. When one sees a three legged dog, that is counted. At the end the “experimenter” proudly affirms that indeed there are only three-legged dogs. When asked about the rest, he just shrugs, and says: “Oh, those do not count”.

Sounds weird, doesn’t it?

That analogy doesn’t quite fit…it assumes that everyone who has a near-death experience will experience evidence of an afterlife, (white light, tunnel, etc.), assuming such an afterlife exists for the purposes of a “study”. And, spiritually, there may be a reason why some experience it and some do not.

No one really bothers, because it is not relevant.

As former President Reagan said, “There you go again”. A priori conclusion that it’s not relevant.

Please. If you don’t see it, I will not explain. If you just try to pull my leg, don’t bother.

No, I’m not pulling your leg. If parts of scripture are archeologically verifiable, doesn’t that give the open mind pause to wonder if more of it may be sound?

For many it would be. Those who accept adulthood and do not look at some authority for guidance it is invigorating.

So adults don’t need any guidance at all?

Oh, I do understand. Many posters here on these boards asserted most seriously that this life does not matter. They said that when I asked them about the horrible pain and suffering people are subject to. When they ran out of other nonsensical arguments, this was their last “trump-card”. And, no, I did not invent this.

Also it is repeated ad nauseam that we are all sinners, nothing more, and we never deserve anything but eternal damnation in hell. It is our “just” fate, and God’s grace (or mercy) is our only hope.

Funny stuff about Calvinists. So they rate even lower than Muslims or atheists?

No, that’s just the difference in their Christian theology and Catholic theology; Calvinists believe we’re worthless, Catholic theology believes we’re tainted. Big difference.

Those that profess that this life doesn’t matter don’t correctly understand Catholic theology. So if you believe them to be correctly espousing Catholic theology, you’re misunderstanding or have been led to misunderstand the Catholic position. Many posters on this forum have passionate but misinformed opinions on Catholic theology. ]

 

[rinnie]

The problem here is there is one thing missing God. You cant mix science and God. People have been trying to do it for years, and they cant. The ironic thing is that in science it has to be proven, and it takes years, but they have to find a reason to prove God wrong, and they always come up short. But in science like I said that have to have a reason, but with God you cant demand proof, And here is the ironic thing with God its faith, once you truely believe in God he gives you proof everyday without asking for it. Thats the problem that scientists have. Let me give you an example, you got jane l and jane 2. jane one dont believe in God she has an anxiety attack they give her a pill, shes okay for awhile but then the pill wears out, proof a pill can calm you down (science). Jane 2 has an anxiety attack she goes in the room alone and prays and asks the Blessed Mother and Saints to help her,and asks God to have mercy on her, she gets calmed down. God just beat science. But no one believes it, they believe jane l but jane 2 must have been pretending her anxiety attack. Its not that God doesnt exist and isnt here every day its some People dont want to believe it. So if they cant believe in him in this Life how can they begin to believe that he is who we go to in the next life. Sorry for being so long,

 

[ateista]

The problem here is there is one thing missing God. You cant mix science and God. People have been trying to do it for years, and they cant.

Of course you cannot prove God’s existence. From that two conclusions can be drawn: one, that God is “hiding” for whatever esoteric reason, and two, there is no God out there.

The problem with the first one is that believers also assert that God is not “really” hiding, sometimes he gives “hints” to his existence. Of course these “hints” are dubious. They are unconvincing to those who do not a-priori accept God’s existence.

So which one will it be? Is God hiding or not?

This is but one of the reasons that believers always come up “short” in credibility. They keep on changing their “argument” as soon as their prior argument is exposed as insufficient.

As a matter of fact, I am conducting a few experiments on these boards. I keep positing questions with a little “twist” on them, and “force” the opponents to argue the other side of the coin. They will argue one side and then argue the other, both with utter conviction. It is quite amusing.

The ironic thing is that in science it has to be proven, and it takes years, but they have to find a reason to prove God wrong, and they always come up short.

Science does not deal with God. Skeptics do.

But in science like I said that have to have a reason, but with God you cant demand proof,

Why not? The only thing where it is improper to demand proof is a personal opinion or conviction. Whatever your personal opinion might be it is your business. However, the very moment you assert that your views are applicable to others, it is encument upon you to bring up arguments.

And here is the ironic thing with God its faith, once you truely believe in God he gives you proof everyday without asking for it.

How do I know that these “proofs” are more than just a delusion? Moreover, you put the cart in front of the horse.

I see the same “reasoning” with proponents of paranormal. They insist that I must a-priori accept their claims, because the mere presence of a skeptic will “distort” the flow of paranormal “energies”, or whatever nonsense they believe in.

So, if I believe first, then there will be “proof”. Who cares? The believers don’t need proof. Only the skeptics need proof, but if you are a skeptic, you are unable to understand the “proof”. This is the kind of arguments one only sees in a lunatic asylum.

Thats the problem that scientists have. Let me give you an example, you got jane l and jane 2. jane one dont believe in God she has an anxiety attack they give her a pill, shes okay for awhile but then the pill wears out, proof a pill can calm you down (science). Jane 2 has an anxiety attack she goes in the room alone and prays and asks the Blessed Mother and Saints to help her,and asks God to have mercy on her, she gets calmed down. God just beat science. But no one believes it, they believe jane l but jane 2 must have been pretending her anxiety attack.

The same result can be achieved by meditating, or taking a few deep breaths or listening to some nice soothing music. No prayer is necessary.

Its not that God doesnt exist and isnt here every day its some People dont want to believe it. So if they cant believe in him in this Life how can they begin to believe that he is who we go to in the next life.

So is God here or is he not? Does God interfere or does he not?

Would you believe if I asserted that there is a magical, invisible leprechaun sitting on my head, and it is the cause of the precipitatoin in the neighborhood? And if you believe in this leprechaun and worship him, and follow the commandments he issued (I have the written transcript of these commandments) then he will grant you incerdible bliss sometime in the future? Is my word enough for you? I would bet, that it is insufficient “evidence”. So why should I believe in your magical God, if you refuse to believe in my magical leprechaun?

 

[rinnie]

Of course you cannot prove God’s existence. From that two conclusions can be drawn: one, that God is “hiding” for whatever esoteric reason, and two, there is no God out there.

The problem with the first one is that believers also assert that God is not “really” hiding, sometimes he gives “hints” to his existence. Of course these “hints” are dubious. They are unconvincing to those who do not a-priori accept God’s existence.

So which one will it be? Is God hiding or not?

This is but one of the reasons that believers always come up “short” in credibility. They keep on changing their “argument” as soon as their prior argument is exposed as insufficient.

As a matter of fact, I am conducting a few experiments on these boards. I keep positing questions with a little “twist” on them, and “force” the opponents to argue the other side of the coin. They will argue one side and then argue the other, both with utter conviction. It is quite amusing.

Science does not deal with God. Skeptics do.

Why not? The only thing where it is improper to demand proof is a personal opinion or conviction. Whatever your personal opinion might be it is your business. However, the very moment you assert that your views are applicable to others, it is encument upon you to bring up arguments.

How do I know that these “proofs” are more than just a delusion? Moreover, you put the cart in front of the horse.

I see the same “reasoning” with proponents of paranormal. They insist that I must a-priori accept their claims, because the mere presence of a skeptic will “distort” the flow of paranormal “energies”, or whatever nonsense they believe in.

So, if I believe first, then there will be “proof”. Who cares? The believers don’t need proof. Only the skeptics need proof, but if you are a skeptic, you are unable to understand the “proof”. This is the kind of arguments one only sees in a lunatic asylum.

The same result can be achieved by meditating, or taking a few deep breaths or listening to some nice soothing music. No prayer is necessary.

So is God here or is he not? Does God interfere or does he not?

Would you believe if I asserted that there is a magical, invisible leprechaun sitting on my head, and it is the cause of the precipitatoin in the neighborhood? And if you believe in this leprechaun and worship him, and follow the commandments he issued (I have the written transcript of these commandments) then he will grant you incerdible bliss sometime in the future? Is my word enough for you? I would bet, that it is insufficient “evidence”. So why should I believe in your magical God, if you refuse to believe in my magical leprechaun?

Because God isnt magical God is Divine. God is not a leprechaun God Is I AM.

 

[Newbie2]

Of course you cannot prove God’s existence. From that two conclusions can be drawn: one, that God is “hiding” for whatever esoteric reason, and two, there is no God out there.

You miss a very important third conclusion; that God being an omnipotent being and we not, we are not capable of throughly understanding or explaining him, and he chooses how he reveals himself to us. This, of course, is the Christian understanding of God.

 

[rinnie]

To answer your other quesions is God here Oh Yes, But like the good book says you have eyes but you cannot see. God would never hide from you. Sometimes God uses others to reveal himself, sometimes things, whatever he wants to do. And science does try to deal with God, they have tried over and over to disprove him, but they never could give all the answers. And they never could except the truth. God created everything, he has power over everything, There is no death, Jesus came back to prove that. And he did prove that. He is the Omega, the beginning and the end. But he will never push himself on you, he gave us all free will. If you want the faith you can have it, but you must pray for that grace from the Holy Spirit. And it wont come over night, for some it will never come at all, Because they truely dont want it, and God knows that. He knows all. You are not the first to doubt God, his own Apostles did, Doubting Thomas, Thomas said i wont believe until i poke my fingers in the holes in his hand, and Jesus said come Thomas look at my hands. You believed Thomas because you saw me but Blessed are those who believe with needing to see.

 

[ateista]

That analogy doesn’t quite fit…it assumes that everyone who has a near-death experience will experience evidence of an afterlife, (white light, tunnel, etc.), assuming such an afterlife exists for the purposes of a “study”. And, spiritually, there may be a reason why some experience it and some do not.

But it fits precisely. You want to bring up selected “evidence” and only count the “evidence” which seems to support your hypothesis, while discarding the rest - which is overwhelming.

As former President Reagan said, “There you go again”. A priori conclusion that it’s not relevant.

The believers have a lot of time to try to prove it - or maybe the opposite. Life is too short to investigate all the different claims that people might bring up.

No, I’m not pulling your leg. If parts of scripture are archeologically verifiable, doesn’t that give the open mind pause to wonder if more of it may be sound?

No. Here is a very short “scripture”: “There is a building called the White House at the address of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. There are space aliens there who look like humans.” The fact that there is the White House at the given address does lend any credence to the other part of the claim, does it?

So adults don’t need any guidance at all?

Sometimes they might, but it should not be based upon some authority, but rational arguments.

Those that profess that this life doesn’t matter don’t correctly understand Catholic theology. So if you believe them to be correctly espousing Catholic theology, you’re misunderstanding or have been led to misunderstand the Catholic position. Many posters on this forum have passionate but misinformed opinions on Catholic theology.

That is nice, but I bet that they would not agree with you. As I said, I like to bring up the same problem with a slightly different twist to it - of course after a few weeks or months. With the twist the same posters will argue a totally different view, and assert that both are the only and “true” representation of the Catholic faith. It is quite amusing.

 

[ateista]

Because God isnt magical God is Divine. God is not a leprechaun God Is I AM.

Sorry, not relevant. It is your opinion that God is divine. If you wish me to take you seriously, you must bring up arguments.

As is, my claim that the magical leprechaun is responsible for the rain and your claim that God is divine are indetical. Both of them are “supported” by our words only. Why should I take your word more seriously than you take mine?

 

[ateista]

You miss a very important third conclusion; that God being an omnipotent being and we not, we are not capable of throughly understanding or explaining him, and he chooses how he reveals himself to us. This, of course, is the Christian understanding of God.

This is not a “third” conclusion, it is the same as my first one.

 

[ateista]

To answer your other quesions is God here Oh Yes, But like the good book says you have eyes but you cannot see. God would never hide from you. Sometimes God uses others to reveal himself, sometimes things, whatever he wants to do.

He never contacted me directly in a fashion that would be obvious to me. Second-hand testimony is not acceptable, because it is indistinguishable from a fairy-tale.

And science does try to deal with God, they have tried over and over to disprove him, but they never could give all the answers. And they never could except the truth.

The generic concept of an undefined supernatural being cannot be disproven because it is too vague. The Christian God is a different matter. The alleged attributes of the Christian God are partly nonsensical and partly contradictory. The existence of the Christian God is akin to a 4-sided triangle - which cannot exist. But this should belong to another thread.

God created everything, he has power over everything, There is no death, Jesus came back to prove that. And he did prove that. He is the Omega, the beginning and the end. But he will never push himself on you, he gave us all free will. If you want the faith you can have it, but you must pray for that grace from the Holy Spirit. And it wont come over night, for some it will never come at all, Because they truely dont want it, and God knows that. He knows all.

The highlighted text could be taken as an insulting remark. But I will not take it so, since I am pretty sure you did not intend to make it insulting. Or it can be taken as the ultimate cop-out. I can be honest in asking for a revelation which will never come. So your conclusion is that I am just a hypocrite, who did not “really” want that revelation. Come on!

You are not the first to doubt God, his own Apostles did, Doubting Thomas, Thomas said i wont believe until i poke my fingers in the holes in his hand, and Jesus said come Thomas look at my hands. You believed Thomas because you saw me but Blessed are those who believe with needing to see.

Right on. Getting actual, first hand confirmation did not cause any harm to Thomas. It would not cause harm to me or anyone else.

As for the other part: “blessed are the ones who have not seen and yet believe” - I have a different opinion: they are not blessed, they are “gullible” (for lack of a much stronger phrase).

 

[ateista]

What happened to the third page with all the posts and replies??? Is there a glitch or a bug? That would be real unfortunate.

 

[rinnie]

No i was not talking to you personally, But if you read the CCC and the Bible it will tell you Jesus wants us all to come to him. Why would that be an insult or personal shot. If you truely want Christ in your heart, and you are baptised, go to church, read the word and open your heart up to him honestly and truthfully he will come. You will be filled with the Holy Spirit and you will have great joy and happiness. Lightness will enter your life. Why is saying that such a horrible thing. It isnt a horrible thing it is the truth. Many people can swear by it, it has happend to many. They will tell you they were at their lowest and they went to God, people who never believed but truely opened their heart, and now they believe. What you dont understand your relationship with God is unique, its like none other. And everyone in this world has the choice. You either choose God or you dont. But just because you dont make that choice and dont want him in your life doesnt mean hes not there. Faith is a gift. And you cant srong arm God and say do this or do that, you or any of us have control over God. He doesnt listen to us or do what we want, we must listen to him and do what he wants, Because he knows whats best for us. And if a person does not go to him and ask him for help he will not force himself on us.

 

[ateista]

No i was not talking to you personally, But if you read the CCC and the Bible it will tell you Jesus wants us all to come to him. Why would that be an insult or personal shot. If you truely want Christ in your heart, and you are baptised, go to church, read the word and open your heart up to him honestly and truthfully he will come.

Been there, done it, have a t-shirt to prove it. Nothing ever happened. My life was great, I had loving parents, etc. But none of that can I attribute to God, just like the problems I had cannot be attributed to him.

You will be filled with the Holy Spirit and you will have great joy and happiness. Lightness will enter your life.

I had my “lightness” on my own. Happiness, sorrow, good and bad experiences, the lot.

Why is saying that such a horrible thing. It isnt a horrible thing it is the truth. Many people can swear by it, it has happend to many. They will tell you they were at their lowest and they went to God, people who never believed but truely opened their heart, and now they believe.

I don’t doubt their honesty. But that is neither here nor there. For an outsider, it is just another story, but nothing more.

What you dont understand your relationship with God is unique, its like none other.

Fine. In this case it is a mutual neglect. I don’t perform miracles and God does not write computer programs.

And everyone in this world has the choice. You either choose God or you dont.

I have no option or choice to “choose” God. I do not believe that God exists. To “pretend” otherwise would be dishonest and futile.

But just because you dont make that choice and dont want him in your life doesnt mean hes not there.

Not in any recognizable shape or form. He could reveal himself to me and allow me to really have an option to choose. I might choose him, or decide against him. But at least there would be a valid choice.

Faith is a gift.

Not to me, it is isn’t. The blind faith demanded in the Bible (“Blessed are the ones who have not seen and yet believe”) is highly repulsive and suspicious to me. This is what every con-artist tells his prospective customers: “Trust me!”… Sorry, trust must be earned.

And you cant srong arm God and say do this or do that, you or any of us have control over God. He doesnt listen to us or do what we want, we must listen to him and do what he wants,

If God does not listen, why should we pray? And God never speaks to anyone.

Because he knows whats best for us. And if a person does not go to him and ask him for help he will not force himself on us.

Again, I cannot go to him, before he shows me that there is someone to go to.

 

[Varghese]

yes I agree with you

when lazarus was asked by the villagers where he had been those 3 days that he lay dead…
he replied he doesnt remember anything, so as the scriptures says when we die we remain dead till the day of resurrection…

I hope Im right

Yes, you do.

But energy and consciousness are not the same, not by a long shot. “Who” we are is our mind, which is the configuration of our brain-cells (the zillions of connections among the billions of them) and that configuratoin is lost at death, when our brain deteriorates.

Any kind of belief in any kind of afterlife denies this. Of course there is not one iota of evidence which would support them. All the available evidence supports the materialistic hypothesis. As usual, that does not “prove” the materialistic approach, however it makes it very plausible.

 

[rinnie]

ateista, you could never have been there, done that, got the t-shirt, if you did you would never say such horrible things. I am sorry that in order for you to have faith in God in must be on your terms, Its is never going to happen that way. You have a choice, and you have made your choice, but it seems to me that you are not very contented in your choice. There is a prayer i am sure you have heard of it. It is the our father. its says. THY KINGDOM COME THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN. See thats the whole secret of life. It is his will that will be done, not mine not yours. HIS. I have excepted this that just because i believe with my whole heart and soul, my life is still going to be hard. I am here to be tested, when i die in this world that is not the end of my life, it is the beginning of the good life. The life i was promised. My Father never breaks his promises. I trust him and Love him. The more i go to him and pray to him the happier and contented I am, The less I pray and stay away from him the more miserable i become. Money will never make me happy, people wont only God can. You can have this too, but just because you dont want it, you cant resent people that do, and you cant say its not true. I am sorry you dont but you can only blame yourself, But God does not hold grudges, he is there whenever you call, He will come. ITs never too late. But remember the Lords Prayer. It will not be on your terms, You are not God and you will not tell him what to do. He is God and if you listen he will show you the way, but again he will not force you. He just dont work that way.

 

[ateista]

Many people can swear by it, it has happend to many. They will tell you they were at their lowest and they went to God, people who never believed but truely opened their heart, and now they believe.

I have to add something to this. When someone is under stress or is depressed their analytical and critical capabilities are at their lowest. They can easily imagine some kind of “divine intervention” when there is none.

Now the questions: How many of those people were in actual physical distress? How many millions could testify that they cried out for help to God and nothing happened? How many children prayed for water and food, and their begging went unheeded? How many innocents were tortured and killed, who asked God for intervention?

It is nice to bring up the testimony of those who believe that God came and comforted them. What about the overwhelming majority of the prayers which never got answered?

Statistics is a wonderful subject, but it must be used honestly. Not just citing a few cases which seem to support the assertion, but all the rest, too.