Belief in Some Kind of "Afterlife"

[rinnie]

I have to add something to this. When someone is under stress or is depressed their analytical and critical capabilities are at their lowest. They can easily imagine some kind of “divine intervention” when there is none.

Now the questions: How many of those people were in actual physical distress? How many millions could testify that they cried out for help to God and nothing happened? How many children prayed for water and food, and their begging went unheeded? How many innocents were tortured and killed, who asked God for intervention?

It is nice to bring up the testimony of those who believe that God came and comforted them. What about the overwhelming majority of the prayers which never got answered?

Statistics is a wonderful subject, but it must be used honestly. Not just citing a few cases which seem to support the assertion, but all the rest, too.

But what good would it do, you would not believe them anyway. But how many testified that God did come too. And who are you to say that they were or were not answered. I begged God to cure my brother of a brain tumor. God did he took all of my brother pain away, he cured him. He answered my prayer.

 

[Newbie2]

I have no option or choice to “choose” God. I do not believe that God exists. To “pretend” otherwise would be dishonest and futile.

On the contrary, you can choose to believe in God or choose not to believe in him, just as you have the choice to choose whether or not to believe whether or not the evidence for God is credible or not.

Either way, you have that free will to make such a choice.

To say that you have no option to choose what to believe, methinks, is somewhat of a copout.

 

[ateista]

ateista, you could never have been there, done that, got the t-shirt, if you did you would never say such horrible things.

I am not aware that I say “horrible” things. I ask questions. By the way I have been a believer when I was a child, and into my adolescent years, even when I attended college. So when I say that “I have been there”, I tell you the truth.

I am sorry that in order for you to have faith in God in must be on your terms, Its is never going to happen that way. You have a choice, and you have made your choice, but it seems to me that you are not very contented in your choice.

It is not a real choice if I am not aware that God exists. It could be a proper place to rely on faith when I contemplate God’s alleged goodness. But to rely on faith whether the target of my worship exists or not is ludicrous.

There is a prayer i am sure you have heard of it. It is the our father. its says. THY KINGDOM COME THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN. See thats the whole secret of life. It is his will that will be done, not mine not yours. HIS.

If it is his “will” that I must be kept in darkness then he is a despot and tyrant. Of course all despots want to be loved and worshipped. Not because they do something to deserve it, but only because they have to power to punish.

As the Bible says: “It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God”. Contrary to assumptions the main theme of the Bible is not love, but obedience. Obey and you will be rewarded, fail to obey and you will be punished. The rest is just icing.

 

[ateista]

On the contrary, you can choose to believe in God or choose not to believe in him, just as you have the choice to choose whether or not to believe whether or not the evidence for God is credible or not.

Either way, you have that free will to make such a choice.

To say that you have no option to choose what to believe, methinks, is somewhat of a copout.

Well, then follow your own advice. Choose to believe in the tooth fairy! Let me know if you succeeded. If you can freely choose to believe that the tooth fairy is real, you can score a big point.

And I cannot “choose” to believe whether the “evidence presented is credible or not” either. Belief is not a matter of volition.

Please do not try to say that belief in God is different from the belief in the tooth fairy. For me they are indentically absurd.

 

[rinnie]

I am not aware that I say “horrible” things. I ask questions. By the way I have been a believer when I was a child, and into my adolescent years, even when I attended college. So when I say that “I have been there”, I tell you the truth.

It is not a real choice if I am not aware that God exists. It could be a proper place to rely on faith when I contemplate God’s alleged goodness. But to rely on faith whether the target of my worship exists or not is ludicrous.

If it is his “will” that I must be kept in darkness then he is a despot and tyrant. Of course all despots want to be loved and worshipped. Not because they do something to deserve it, but only because they have to power to punish.

As the Bible says: “It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God”. Contrary to assumptions the main theme of the Bible is not love, but obedience. Obey and you will be rewarded, fail to obey and you will be punished. The rest is just icing.

What are you talking about? the bible is not full of Love? Explain this then a Man Jesus Christ crucified for our sins, A man who died for his love for us. A man who came into this world for our sins not his for he had none. Was spit on, called every name in the book, beaten beyond belief, and what were his words FATHER FORGIVE THEM THE KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO? What do you call that? How do you explain that?

 

[rinnie]

Well, then follow your own advice. Choose to believe in the tooth fairy! Let me know if you succeeded. If you can freely choose to believe that the tooth fairy is real, you can score a big point.

And I cannot “choose” to believe whether the “evidence presented is credible or not” either. Belief is not a matter of volition.

Please do not try to say that belief in God is different from the belief in the tooth fairy. For me they are indentically absurd.

Oh i am sorry but i am going to say there is a big difference! And you are totally absurd. When the tooth fairy is crucified, dies and is buried and rises on the 3rd day, then we can talk. Honestly what really is your point here? I mean you really dont believe in GOd i got that, But why are you on a Catholic site? If you dont believe in God you surely dont believe in the after life, thats for sure, What is it you want to hear?

 

[ateista]

Oh i am sorry but i am going to say there is a big difference! And you are totally absurd.

It was supposed to be absurd. Obviously you never read the post I replied to. Newbie2 asserted that the belief in God is a matter of volition. That I can “choose” to believe in God if I want to.

So I simply chose something (the tooth fairy) which is as absurd for him as the concept of God for me, and asked him is he can volitionally “choose” to believe in this absurd being. I hope he will reply.

I mean you really dont believe in GOd i got that, But why are you on a Catholic site? If you dont believe in God you surely dont believe in the after life, thats for sure, What is it you want to hear?

Actually some other people beside Christians believe in an afterlife, and I answered that OP. As for why am I here? I am looking forward to engage in a stimulating conversation. It happens once in a blue moon.

 

[ateista]

What are you talking about? the bible is not full of Love? Explain this then a Man Jesus Christ crucified for our sins, A man who died for his love for us. A man who came into this world for our sins not his for he had none. Was spit on, called every name in the book, beaten beyond belief, and what were his words FATHER FORGIVE THEM THE KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO? What do you call that? How do you explain that?

I call that a leftover from the pagan rituals Christianity has borrowed from. In all religions there were sacrifices demanded by gods, who has to be constantly appeased. Sometimes the sacrifices were animals, many times they were humans. It was a horrible and barbaric custom.

If you view the Bible with the eyes of an outsider (which is probably impossible for you) you will see that only one part deals with this sacrifice, and the overwhelming rest talks about obedience.

And no, I don’t find it a sign of “love” either. A “loving God” could have just forgiven the “sins” of humanity without any sacrifice.

 

[rinnie]

It was supposed to be absurd. Obviously you never read the post I replied to. Newbie2 asserted that the belief in God is a matter of volition. That I can “choose” to believe in God if I want to.

So I simply chose something (the tooth fairy) which is as absurd for him as the concept of God for me, and asked him is he can volitionally “choose” to believe in this absurd being. I hope he will reply.

Actually some other people beside Christians believe in an afterlife, and I answered that OP. As for why am I here? I am looking forward to engage in a stimulating conversation. It happens once in a blue moon.

Again i will repeat myself more clearly this time, why are you here? What is it you want to hear? On this site i mean? It is a Catholic site? Why would a person who clearly does not believe in God even go on a site that has to do with God. I am sure there are many sites that have questions about the afterlife, I mean there must be a reason, its either you are searching for God, or you want to pull people away that are confused and want to lead them away from God. I cant think of another reason an atheist would be here! And you can choose God if you want, anyone can. But for some reason you cant comprehend that.

 

[Swan]

Again i will repeat myself more clearly this time, why are you here? What is it you want to hear? On this site i mean? It is a Catholic site? Why would a person who clearly does not believe in God even go on a site that has to do with God. I am sure there are many sites that have questions about the afterlife, I mean there must be a reason, its either you are searching for God, or you want to pull people away that are confused and want to lead them away from God. I cant think of another reason an atheist would be here! And you can choose God if you want, anyone can. But for some reason you cant comprehend that.

Ateista is interesting. She makes valid, interesting points and is able to engage in debate without resorting to knee-jerk hostility and negative generalizations and pronoucements on one’s eternal destination (I’m not saying you do, I’m talking about Ateista). I find it stimulatings, but then I’m still seeking so I don’t get offended when someone holds a different opinion than I (IOW, I don’t take it as a personal insult to my belief system). I find that refreshing. And I’m not an atheist.

As for what is and is not possible for one to believe, folks usually can’t just accept something because others hold it to be true. I don’t find the RC to the one truth Church but a lot of people do - and I’ve had some suggest that I would to if I chose to. But my mind doesn’t work that way. I have to be able to rationally support my belief to myself and I just can’t do that for this and some other issues. I’m not being obstinant. It’s not that I haven’t tried. I was a practicing RC for years but finally realized that I just didn’t believe some of the teachings. Rather than be a hypocrite, I left. To suggest that people can automatically change their beliefs on a whim is an insult to their dignity, though I don’t think you mean it this way. It suggests that if we all tried a little harder we’d come to the same “correct” conclusions that you did. It’s just not that simple.

 

[rinnie]

You know what you are absolutely correct and i am 100% wrong. After going back i see that this thread was meant for atheists and didnt realize that. The Post was asking for their opinion, I should not have even been on this thread. Again i apologize and i was in the wrong. I just saw afterlife and started in. Again sorry for the mistake. I will pay more attention in the future.

 

[ateista]

You know what you are absolutely correct and i am 100% wrong. After going back i see that this thread was meant for atheists and didnt realize that. The Post was asking for their opinion, I should not have even been on this thread. Again i apologize and i was in the wrong. I just saw afterlife and started in. Again sorry for the mistake. I will pay more attention in the future.

Why should you apologize? You are as welcome in this thread as in any other one. You questions and observations contribute to the debate and enrich the flow of thoughts!

 

[ateista]

To suggest that people can automatically change their beliefs on a whim is an insult to their dignity, though I don’t think you mean it this way. It suggests that if we all tried a little harder we’d come to the same “correct” conclusions that you did. It’s just not that simple.

You are exactly correct.

Beliefs are not the result of a conscious deliberating process. They are the product of the sub-conscious, an “automatic” result of weighing the evidence and reaching a verdict.

As an example: if I would claim (hearsay evidence) that I won 3 dollars on the Powerball, you could accept that claim quite easily - because it is a very probable event.

If I were to claim that I won a Nobel prize, your built in process would find it very unlikely. If I would claim that I won the jackpot on Powerball and also the Nobel prize and that I can run 100 meter dash under 9 seconds, you would not believe me at all.

And no amount of conscious struggle could convince you that I was telling the truth. Your subconscious would reject it.

 

[rinnie]

Why should you apologize? You are as welcome in this thread as in any other one. You questions and observations contribute to the debate and enrich the flow of thoughts!

Thanks ateista, it was nice of you to say that. But it was my misunderstanding all the way. I saw this in a whole different way, and i was wrong. But if its okay before i leave i would like to pray for you that someday you come back into the faith. And if there is anything i could ever do to help let me know. I promise i will be more kind. God Bless everyone

 

[ateista]

Thanks ateista, it was nice of you to say that. But it was my misunderstanding all the way. I saw this in a whole different way, and i was wrong. But if its okay before i leave i would like to pray for you that someday you come back into the faith. And if there is anything i could ever do to help let me know. I promise i will be more kind. God Bless everyone

Thank you for you your kind words and offer. I wish you the very best, and let’s take a note that disagreement does not have to entail hostility.

 

[rinnie]

Thank you for you your kind words and offer. I wish you the very best, and let’s take a note that disagreement does not have to entail hostility.

I swear to you i never meant it that way. But i know talking in person words sound different then typing. But I agree totally disagreement isnt fighting. But in the end we would have ended up okay anyway.

 

[ateista]

I swear to you i never meant it that way. But i know talking in person words sound different then typing. But I agree totally disagreement isnt fighting. But in the end we would have ended up okay anyway.

Of course you did not. And I never thought so. But this is a perfect example of how misunderstandings can happen. I only made a very general remark, and it came across to you that I meant it personally. How easy it is to make such an uninteded error. Scary thought! Maybe I will have to be more careful… Anyhow, maybe in another thread we can exchange ideas again.

 

[rinnie]

Of course you did not. And I never thought so. But this is a perfect example of how misunderstandings can happen. I only made a very general remark, and it came across to you that I meant it personally. How easy it is to make such an uninteded error. Scary thought! Maybe I will have to be more careful… Anyhow, maybe in another thread we can exchange ideas again.

OK BUT DONT GET MAD AT ME, BUT I STILL GONNA PRAY TO GET YA BACK HOME. WANT TO SEE YA SOME DAY, IF NOT IN THIS WORLD IN THE NEXT. WITH JESUS, ALSO IF I CAN ADD, WHEN I TOLD YA GOD ANSWERED MY PRAYERS, AND CURED MY BRO, WE WERE 2 YEARS APART. I LOVED HIM WITH ALL I HAD, HE AND I WERE CLOSER THEN TWINS… GOD DID CURE HIM, HE TOOK HIM HOME, HES IN HEAVEN. THATS WHERE THE, THY WILL BE DONE, (OUR FATHER) I HAVE THAT MUCH FAITH IN GOD, AND IF YOU KNEW MY BRO AND HOW MUCH I LOVED HIM, YOU WOULD KMOW HOW MUCH I TRUST AND LOVE GOD. MY BRO MET GOD AT 39. THATS WHY I GOTTA DO RIGHT IN THIS WORLD, I WANNA SEE HIM AGAIN, AND GOD TOOK MY DAD THIS MARCH 1 TO BE EXACT. THEY ARE WAITING FOR ME, AND I WANT YOU TO BE THERE TO MEET THEM. SO PLEASE DONT GIVE UP ON GOD. HES THERE I SWEAR TO YOU HE IS. SO GO BACK FIGURE OUT WHAT YOU MISSED, I SWEAR TO YOU, SOMEONE OR SOMETHING GOT IN THE WAY, TRY, TRY HARD TO FIGURE IT OUT. AND I SWEAR IF YOU TRY,YOU WILL. BUT FOR NOW EVERY TIME YOU SEE A HARLEY DAVIDSON THINK OF MY BROTHER, HE LOVED TO RIDE, LONG HAIR, (WELL MY KIDS CALL IT THE MALLET) BUT HE LOVED JESUS, HE WAS A BIKER HAD LONG HAIR LIKE JESUS, AND A HEART OF GOLD LIKE JESUS. NOT WHAT YOU WOULD THINK IF YA SAW HIM,. BUT BEFORE HE DIED HE SAID IM NOT AFRAID I BELIEVE IN GOD. IF GOD WANTS ME I GOTTA GO. JUST PLEASE THINK ABOUT IT…

 

[dbg]

I’m curious to know if atheists and agnostics belive in some kind of afterlife. Not a supernatural heaven or hell situation but more a natural progression of our consciousness on another plane?

I believe God does not exist but I do believe in some kind of continued existence after death. I base it on my belief that my life is meaningful and that without a continued existence my life would not be meaningful.

 

[ateista]

I believe God does not exist but I do believe in some kind of continued existence after death. I base it on my belief that my life is meaningful and that without a continued existence my life would not be meaningful.

Interesting concept. How would a continued existence lend “meaning” to this existence? If that next existence would be another mortal existence, then it would be meaningless as well, wouldn’t it? Or is the next existence is fundamentally different (something like heaven or Nirvana)?

I would think that our life has meaning - whatever we make out of it. For atheists death has no meaning.