Belief... or lack thereof

[PRmerger]

Oh… I’m sorry if it’s a pejorative…
It’s not supposed to be.
"indoctrinate
[in-dok-truh-neyt]

verb (used with object), indoctrinated, indoctrinating.

1. to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., especially to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view.
2. to teach or inculcate.
3. to imbue with learning.
   "

As you see, it’s the same thing you were saying, but devoted to beliefs.

And I look forward to the time when I see you say that you have indoctrinated your children, your wife, your students, your nieces and nephews with your information.

 

[PRmerger]

God can be seen as the ultimate alien!

This is another example of the impoverished understanding you have of God.

No wonder you reject god. I reject the same god you do.

If it’s mind control, it’s indistinguishable from the real deal… And we’d be sure to have people recording the event… after all, nowadays, there are cameras everywhere, and instagram is available.

I don’t know what this means.

No need to start a religion…

Why not?

Religion is merely a way to have a relationship with God.

If we all have private revelation of God we still need religiare, or religion, to have a relationship with him.

no need for priests

Well, only if there wasn’t an atoning death which needs to be represented to God.

 

[guanophore]

Atheists teach children to be atheists? I must be doing something wrong with my kids… I just teach them the things I know, help them with school to the best of my abilities, provide them with some shortcuts, provide some connective tissue when I feel they’ve been learning things out of context, etc… play with them, be there… their mum takes them to her Sunday mass… I stay home… is that teaching them to be atheists?
Certainly, I give them some pointers as how to not be deceived by other people, but I make it general and it essentially ends up being: don’t talk to strangers, don’t open the door to strangers, don’t go with strangers to anywhere…
They have time to think about things with developed brains…

Sounds like you are a good father Pedro. Wish there were more like you!

While kids, they are, as Bill Cosby said, brain damaged! [youtube.com/watch?v=qyMSc97UksM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyMSc97UksM) ;)

It doesn’t matter how many times I see this, it still makes me laugh!

 

[Nixbits]

pocaracas:

No need to start a religion . . . No need for priests.

PRmerger:

Why not? Religion is merely a way to have a relationship with God.

I think the scenario Pocaracas was suggesting was that, if we all had direct, tangible, and frequent shared contact with God, then there would be no need for the institutions of religion or the intermediary of a priest.

Imagine . . .
“God wants us to have a prayer vigil to ask for His intercession.”
“No, you’re wrong Father. Me and Bob and Pete spoke to God last Thursday at a meeting at the public library. He explained that He wants us to get organised and sort the problem out ourselves. We all saw and heard Him plain as day.”

Why would any of us need to use ‘religion’ as a way to have a relationship with God, if we all had this sort of direct and immediate relationship with Him?

 

[pocaracas]

Hi guanophore,

I think you are wrong. I think that human beings are created with a tendency toward religion.
But I do agree, there is no need to start a new one. God has already given us one that works best for our nature.

Did he? How do you explain Martin Luther, then?

Anyway, I don’t think humans have a tendency toward religion, but toward making sense of all that’s around them… of finding patterns where there are none… on drawing conclusions from incomplete data.
For some this leads them to a more spiritual point of view… for others, a more physical.

I agree Poc. One cannot come to know anyone when they reject what has already been revealed.If I told you about myself, and you classified it as legend, what would make me want to tell you more??

What exists in the spiritual/imaginal realm is more real than what is in the material. If you are not interested in relating on that level, it is not likely that you will ever encounter anything of value that is intangible.

What you tell me about yourself is on a whole different level than what some people tell me about a God that they believe in… don’t you think?

You are your sole reference point, so it is more likely you will be self deluded.

More likely, biased.

Is this your attitude about religion?

It’s my attitude about human psychology.
That it seems to intersect with religion is a pity…

It is not that you want to avoid becoming a victim of propoganda, but your judgement that Chrisitanity is based in lies.

My judgement is that Christianity is based on pre-existing beliefs, with some extra sprinkles added at around the first century.
People already believed in God the Father, prior to Christianity, an in that geographical location for hundreds or even thousands of years.

The concept of this God the Father may have come from other pre-existing concepts of the divine realm… the concept of the divine realm may have come from the yearning for everlasting life, contrasting with the observation that all life on Earth is finite…

The propaganda comes from way further back than Christianity, or even Judaism…

I agree.

Since you seem to have no other way of coming to it, it is not likely that you will.

What other way is there, I wonder…?

Clearly. All something to be disparaged from your point of view.

All something that, when understood for what it is, becomes difficult to accept, yes…

I have to wonder what would bring a person with such attitudes to a place like CAF. Why are you here?

Why?.. to share my own unique point of view!

 

[pocaracas]

And I look forward to the time when I see you say that you have indoctrinated your children, your wife, your students, your nieces and nephews with your information.

Maybe I can make them socialists… or “worse”, communists!! BUAHHAHAHAHAH!

(I know how anti-communism americans tend to get, that’s why I used it here.

I’m more on the socialist camp - European style socialism - “free” widely available healthcare and education, not to mention maintenance of roads and other infrastructures, as well as a police force to help keep social order - if not for that, why do we pay taxes?)

 

[pocaracas]

This is another example of the impoverished understanding you have of God.

No wonder you reject god. I reject the same god you do.

I have many understandings of God. That is just one of the least flattering to Him.

I don’t know what this means.

If everyone has some sort of periodic conversation with God, it’s certain that some will record it. People will talk about it with each other, each detailing the insight that they got.
And, nowadays, it would even get the benefit of being recorded on tape, digital, or whatever…
Can you believe it? An LP titled “My conversations with God”?

Why not?

Religion is merely a way to have a relationship with God.

If we all have private revelation of God we still need religiare, or religion, to have a relationship with him.

No organized religion. Better?
No different views of God throughout the world…

Well, only if there wasn’t an atoning death which needs to be represented to God.

Under this scenario of mine, such atonement would have never been necessary in the first place… I think.

 

[pocaracas]

Sounds like you are a good father Pedro. Wish there were more like you!

thanks!

(Q: how do you know my name?.. I don’t remember sharing it around here… but I may have… my memory sucks for details like this)

It doesn’t matter how many times I see this, it still makes me laugh!

That makes 2 of us!
And his parents…

 

[PRmerger]

Silly because you’re equating the teaching of a methodology based on physical testing, with the teaching of a potential fairy tale.

[cont.d]

“A potential fairy tale”. That’s just begging the question, poca.

 

[PRmerger]

I just teach them the things I know, help them with school to the best of my abilities, provide them with some shortcuts, provide some connective tissue when I feel they’ve been learning things out of context, etc…

Would you indulge me and assert the above using “indoctrinate”?

That would make me very happy.

(And I hope you will do it without any qualifiers, indicating that you really, truly have embraced the idea that indoctrination is not a pejorative–it simply is promoting your POV to another.)

 

[PRmerger]

I think the scenario Pocaracas was suggesting was that, if we all had direct, tangible, and frequent shared contact with God, then there would be no need for the institutions of religion or the intermediary of a priest.

Imagine . . .
“God wants us to have a prayer vigil to ask for His intercession.”
“No, you’re wrong Father. Me and Bob and Pete spoke to God last Thursday at a meeting at the public library. He explained that He wants us to get organised and sort the problem out ourselves. We all saw and heard Him plain as day.”

Why would any of us need to use ‘religion’ as a way to have a relationship with God, if we all had this sort of direct and immediate relationship with Him?

This demonstrates an impoverished understanding of religion.

“Religion” comes from the Latin word religiaire, which means, essentially “relationship”–to bind or tie together.

So what you’re saying is the nonsensical, “We don’t need relationship in order to have a relationship with God.”

 

[PRmerger]

Hi guanophore,

Did he? How do you explain Martin Luther, then?

Great fervency and love of God mixed with pride and scrupulosity?

Anyway, I don’t think humans have a tendency toward religion, but toward making sense of all that’s around them…

Firstly, this, too, is begging the question.

It assumes that religion and “making sense of all that is around them” cannot be compatible.

Secondly, given the fact that every single human society for hundreds of thousands of years have had religion, it is quite peculiar that you would be able to say that humans don’t have a tendency toward religion.

It seems quite contrary to the evidence, doesn’t it?

That’s like saying “I don’t believe that human beings have the desire to procreate, they just don’t want to sleep alone at night.”

 

[PRmerger]

I have many understandings of God. That is just one of the least flattering to Him.

Let’s just start with the classical definition of God, and then we can reject all the other definitions you have proposed–like being a super hero, only more awesome. That’s not God.

God is a being that is eternal, necessary, immaterial, omnipotent, omniscient. He is “that which no greater can be imagined”.

Just use the above whenever you talk about God and we can chat.

If everyone has some sort of periodic conversation with God, it’s certain that some will record it. People will talk about it with each other, each detailing the insight that they got.
And, nowadays, it would even get the benefit of being recorded on tape, digital, or whatever…

Look, poca. Everyone, except for a minuscule segment of society, from time immemorial, has already done a version of what you describe above.

That’s not enough to convince you.

I can extrapolate that even if we anted up and provided the evidence you describe above, it wouldn’t be enough to convince you.

After all, I see videos of ghosts and I am not convinced.

youtube.com/watch?v=V8HMjGrzeKM

Under this scenario of mine, such atonement would have never been necessary in the first place… I think.

How would this work? No one sinned at the beginning of society so no atonement was necessary?

That is, Adam and Even never sinned because God revealed himself to them?

 

[PRmerger]

No organized religion. Better?

So disorganized religion?

I simply cannot embrace the view that this would be better.

No different views of God throughout the world…

Now, this ^^…

definitely better.

 

[Nixbits]

PRmerger:

This demonstrates an impoverished understanding of religion.

Or more likely sloppy use of language by me. I apologise.

PRmerger:

So what you’re saying is the nonsensical, “We don’t need relationship in order to have a relationship with God.”

What I meant to say is that we would not need the trappings of organised religion (ceremonies, clergy, etc) if everyone had direct frequent shared tangible contact with God, as pocaracas suggested.

Incidentally, I used the word ‘religion’ to mean a particular system of faith and worship, which is one of the common definitions. I should have been more precise, which I have now done. But to suggest that the word religion is synonymous with the word relationship because of its latin root is disingenuous.

 

[PRmerger]

What I meant to say is that we would not need the trappings of organised religion (ceremonies, clergy, etc) if everyone had direct frequent shared tangible contact with God, as pocaracas suggested.

I think reality refutes this position.

Let’s take a parallel:

You have direct, frequent, shared tangible contact with your spouse, yes? (If not married, just try to apply the parallel in the abstract).

Yet there is not a single marriage that doesn’t share rituals, outings, events, celebrations together.

Tangible contact with someone doesn’t negate the need for other “trappings”.

 

[pocaracas]

“A potential fairy tale”. That’s just begging the question, poca.

I’m granting you the benefit of the doubt… considering the likelihood I’ve attributed to the possibility that said fairy tale does represent reality accurately.

################

Would you indulge me and assert the above using “indoctrinate”?

That would make me very happy.

(And I hope you will do it without any qualifiers, indicating that you really, truly have embraced the idea that indoctrination is not a pejorative–it simply is promoting your POV to another.)

That wasn’t me.
I go by the dictionary definition for that… indoctrinating is teaching a religious doctrine, belief, or ideology.
Certainly, I’ll try to indoctrinate them into socialism, but to also be able to look at things through the point of view of the person with the money, the company CEO… and from the POV of the government.
When you put these 3 together, you get some crazy paradoxes… and only the government has the power to sort them out…
Lobbying tends to mess with the government’s ability to sort things fairly for all.

 

[PRmerger]

That wasn’t me.

Yes, poca, it was.

I go by the dictionary definition for that… indoctrinating is teaching a religious doctrine, belief, or ideology.

Indoctrination doesn’t have to do with religious ideology.

It has to do with instructing others in your point of view.

Certainly, I’ll try to indoctrinate them into socialism, but to also be able to look at things through the point of view of the person with the money, the company CEO… and from the POV of the government.

Excellent.

I will remember this.

 

[pocaracas]

Great fervency and love of God mixed with pride and scrupulosity?

Perhaps…
But it seems to have worked well for most of northern Europe and the US.

Firstly, this, too, is begging the question.

It assumes that religion and “making sense of all that is around them” cannot be compatible.

Compatible, yes… coincident, I don’t think so.

Secondly, given the fact that every single human society for hundreds of thousands of years have had religion, it is quite peculiar that you would be able to say that humans don’t have a tendency toward religion.

It seems quite contrary to the evidence, doesn’t it?

That’s like saying “I don’t believe that human beings have the desire to procreate, they just don’t want to sleep alone at night.”

“Every single human society”? Are you sure?
You may say that humans have a tendency to accept an immaterial entity as an adequate explanation for what happens around them… but religion requires some organization, no?

 

[pocaracas]

Let’s just start with the classical definition of God, and then we can reject all the other definitions you have proposed–like being a super hero, only more awesome. That’s not God.

God is a being that is eternal, necessary, immaterial, omnipotent, omniscient. He is “that which no greater can be imagined”.

Just use the above whenever you talk about God and we can chat.

ok… all this because I said God could be seen as the ultimate alien…
He’s certainly not an Earthling, is He?

Look, poca. Everyone, except for a minuscule segment of society, from time immemorial, has already done a version of what you describe above.

That’s not enough to convince you.

I can extrapolate that even if we anted up and provided the evidence you describe above, it wouldn’t be enough to convince you.

After all, I see videos of ghosts and I am not convinced.

youtube.com/watch?v=V8HMjGrzeKM

Ghost videos are everywhere… And it’s not like… wait i.imgur.com/aLPZjgN.png

Everyone has had a conversation with God? Well, that’s news to me.
Unless you say that a one way conversation counts…

How would this work? No one sinned at the beginning of society so no atonement was necessary?

That is, Adam and Even never sinned because God revealed himself to them?

No “such” atonement… would a death be required?
Or maybe… He wouldn’t have raged at Adam and Eve…

#####################

So disorganized religion?

I simply cannot embrace the view that this would be better.

Religion in the sense that you were describing before… a relationship with him.
Disorganized, in human terms… It would be, presumably, organized by God Himself, no?

Now, this ^^…

definitely better.

And yet, we don’t see it…