Belief... or lack thereof

[pocaracas]

Perhaps… But I’m limited in understanding…

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So… the Universe is God. Or God is the Universe.
Or is it meant to be yet more than that?

 

[pocaracas]

don’t think this is complicated, it is meant for children to understand. if you want to see just want to see with all your heart and you will.

That’s what I spent a bunch of time trying to get PRmerger and MPat to understand…
I don’t want to allow my brain to deceive itself… .and that methodology can accomplish just that.
If there is a being out there and humans stumbled on it, then I want to stumble on it… the proper way.
Not by suggestion.
Not by proxy.
Not by trick.

Is that possible?
Or is that called “being closed-minded” and automatically dismissed?

 

[You]

That’s what I spent a bunch of time trying to get PRmerger and MPat to understand…
I don’t want to allow my brain to deceive itself… .and that methodology can accomplish just that.
If there is a being out there and humans stumbled on it, then I want to stumble on it… the proper way.
Not by suggestion.
Not by proxy.
Not by trick.

Is that possible?
Or is that called “being closed-minded” and automatically dismissed?

i would call it being suspicious and possible proud. if you think of it from a child’s perspective, which is the only way, then the child is not yet suspicious it has not learned to be. nor is it proud, it is not yet self-conscious enough to worry or be afraid of what its companions think of it. in a sense you are trying to return to the garden of eden where your innocence of suspicion, pride and fear are still intact. there is only one way to approach this father of humanity and thats as a child with trust and no suspicion fear or pride, otherwise those things rule you and block you.

 

[pocaracas]

i would call it being suspicious and possible proud. if you think of it from a child’s perspective, which is the only way, then the child is not yet suspicious it has not learned to be. nor is it proud, it is not yet self-conscious enough to worry or be afraid of what its companions think of it. in a sense you are trying to return to the garden of eden where your innocence of suspicion, pride and fear are still intact. there is only one way to approach this father of humanity and thats as a child with trust and no suspicion fear or pride, otherwise those things rule you and block you.

Suspicious?.. yeah… I am suspicious of how the concept of God itself came about… how it relates to reality.
Too many psychological flaws in our brains seem to be responsible for that concept and it’s perpetuation… I merely wish to come to the same conclusion, but trying to keep those potential psychological flaws at bay.
If that is possible, then yes, God is proven.
If that is not possible, then I remain suspicious.

 

[You]

Suspicious?.. yeah… I am suspicious of how the concept of God itself came about… how it relates to reality.
Too many psychological flaws in our brains seem to be responsible for that concept and it’s perpetuation… I merely wish to come to the same conclusion, but trying to keep those potential psychological flaws at bay.
If that is possible, then yes, God is proven.
If that is not possible, then I remain suspicious.

then stop being afraid and pray. look at it this way, your fear is stopping you, so leave it alone and pray and see what happens.

 

[pocaracas]

then stop being afraid and pray. look at it this way, your fear is stopping you, so leave it alone and pray and see what happens.

Afraid?
Afraid of being deceived, perhaps.
Why should I pray? What good does that do? How does it get me closer to seeing God?
Can such prayer be a form of exploiting the same psychological flaws I wish to avoid?

 

[You]

Afraid?
Afraid of being deceived, perhaps.
Why should I pray? What good does that do? How does it get me closer to seeing God?
Can such prayer be a form of exploiting the same psychological flaws I wish to avoid?

prayer just means asking, whether its a verbal or non-verbal asking, it is a desire for a petition to be heard.
if you want to go somewhere, London, England, say. and you ask someone “how do i go to London, England”, and they tell you ‘go over to that person (travel agent) and say you want to go to London, England’.

but you say ‘how do i know its not a trick?’ my paranoia and suspicion won’t let me go to that person and ask them.

so the reply is something like, ‘don’t be afraid’.

 

[PRmerger]

prayer just means asking, whether its a verbal or non-verbal asking, it is a desire for a petition to be heard.
if you want to go somewhere, London, England, say. and you ask someone “how do i go to London, England”, and they tell you ‘go over to that person (travel agent) and say you want to go to London, England’.

but you say ‘how do i know its not a trick?’ my paranoia and suspicion won’t let me go to that person and ask them.

so the reply is something like, ‘don’t be afraid’.

This is a wonderful analogy, You.

Let’s hope that it is understood and that the response is not, “I don’t travel to London because of terrorist threats” or some other nonsequitur that makes you go

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[pocaracas]

prayer just means asking, whether its a verbal or non-verbal asking, it is a desire for a petition to be heard.

And when I don’t get any reply?.. what then?

But continuing with my “fear” and “suspicion”… if I am asking, honestly asking, then I’m also assuming that there is someone, something, listening. I may not know how that listening happens, but the assumption of such a listener can lead me to interpret some random event as a reply from that listener. How do I avoid that?

if you want to go somewhere, London, England, say. and you ask someone “how do i go to London, England”, and they tell you ‘go over to that person (travel agent) and say you want to go to London, England’.

but you say ‘how do i know its not a trick?’ my paranoia and suspicion won’t let me go to that person and ask them.

so the reply is something like, ‘don’t be afraid’.

PR liked your analogy… he likes analogies.
Hi PR! Good to see you! Merry Christmas, dude!

I’d put the analogy a bit more like: you talk to that comm-system mounted on the wall. I say “how do I know it’s connected to something? and how do I know the seemingly random noises that are coming out of it don’t eventually sound as if some pattern emerges and I hear it as a reply, but it’s still just random noise?”

 

[You]

This is a wonderful analogy, You.

Let’s hope that it is understood and that the response is not, “I don’t travel to London because of terrorist threats” or some other nonsequitur that makes you go

http://replygif.net/i/792.gif

it is that ones creator is more powerful than you or i. you will know. merry christmas, to all, and to all, hohoho… etc.

 

[Nixbits]

You:

your heart is drawn to your treasure. even i can understand that

Sorry, You. I just don’t understand what you mean by this. Simply repeating the words doesn’t make it any clearer.

It still makes as much sense to me as ‘God is Love’, or ‘I am that I am’. Which is to say, none at all.

 

[You]

Sorry, You. I just don’t understand what you mean by this. Simply repeating the words doesn’t make it any clearer.

It still makes as much sense to me as ‘God is Love’, or ‘I am that I am’. Which is to say, none at all.

try this. what comes out of your mouth is what is in your heart.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

try this. what comes out of your mouth is what is in your heart.

I think that one risk to this approach is that you could end up with a number of different people acquiring the feeling of understanding while at the same time those people could have interpretations that may be incompatible with each other.

 

[You]

I think that one risk to this approach is that you could end up with a number of different people acquiring the feeling of understanding while at the same time those people could have interpretations that may be incompatible with each other.

its easy. what is in your heart comes out of your mouth.

 

[Bradski]

i would call it being suspicious and possible proud. if you think of it from a child’s perspective, which is the only way, then the child is not yet suspicious it has not learned to be. nor is it proud, it is not yet self-conscious enough to worry or be afraid of what its companions think of it. in a sense you are trying to return to the garden of eden where your innocence of suspicion, pride and fear are still intact.

You do realise that if you want to believe something badly enough and you approach the matter as would a child, then you are only going to get one result. I don’t know about you, but when I was a child, I thought like a child. But now I am a man I have put away childish things.

I don’t know anyone who would consider critical thinking to be commensurate with pride and fear. If you are looking for the truth then I would consider it to be something of a necessity.

 

[You]

You do realise that if you want to believe something badly enough and you approach the matter as would a child, then you are only going to get one result. I don’t know about you, but when I was a child, I thought like a child. But now I am a man I have put away childish things.

I don’t know anyone who would consider critical thinking to be commensurate with pride and fear. If you are looking for the truth then I would consider it to be something of a necessity.

childlike not childish. when critical thinking only gives you one result you need to reconsider what an innocent mind and heart might add to your thinking.

 

[Bradski]

childlike not childish. when critical thinking only gives you one result you need to reconsider what an innocent mind and heart might add to your thinking.

Childlike thinking? I know what my kids believed when they were children. Using, not surprisingly, childlike thinking. Generally anything they wanted. Their beliefs were unquestioning.

It seems that you are suggesting that critical thinking should take you where you want to go rather than where it might lead. What happens if childlike reasoning doesn’t take someone to God, but critical thinking does? Which then is the correct method?

Let me guess…it’s the one that gives the answer you want it to.

 

[PRmerger]

You do realise that if you want to believe something badly enough and you approach the matter as would a child, then you are only going to get one result.

It must also be said that if you don’t want to believe something badly enough, then no amount of arguments are going to persuade you, right?

 

[Nixbits]

You:

what comes out of your mouth is what is in your heart

By this, do you mean that our deepest inner feelings will be expressed by our words?

 

[You]

By this, do you mean that our deepest inner feelings will be expressed by our words?

is your heart cheerful, is your heart troubled, is your heart bitter? these things will come out of your mouth.